Empire of the North vs Middle Earth

[HemlockGrey]

The Empire of the North(from the Black Company books) at it is shortly before Shadows Linger, vs Middle Earth, 3rd Age, shortly before the Fellowship of the Ring.

[Stormbringer]

The Empire of the North gets stomped. Number and magic both favor the forces of Mordor.

[HemlockGrey]

You would think- Mordor is one of ME's big strongpoints. But Taken could massacre orcs in huge numbers, imperial forces are more disciplined(see Roman vs Orc threads) and if Lady got her hands on the One Ring, good-bye Sauron.

[Stormbringer]

You would think- Mordor is one of ME's big strongpoints. But Taken could massacre orcs in huge numbers, imperial forces are more disciplined(see Roman vs Orc threads) and if Lady got her hands on the One Ring, good-bye Sauron.

Orcs always get massacred in huge numbers. But they will bring down the Imperial forces through shear numbers. Ten thousand versus a few hundred thousand low end is going to mean man flesh for the orcs.

And you assume The Lady wouldn't be Sauron's bitch within minutes.

[HemlockGrey]

Orcs always get massacred in huge numbers. But they will bring down the Imperial forces through shear numbers. Ten thousand versus a few hundred thousand low end is going to mean man flesh for the orcs.

There are more than ten thousand imperials, and entrenched, with Taken support(such as the boiling ground used at the Stair of Tear) the orcs will die as fast as they can attack.

And you assume The Lady wouldn't be Sauron's bitch within minutes.

Why would she? She held off the Dominator.

[Stormbringer]

Orcs always get massacred in huge numbers. But they will bring down the Imperial forces through shear numbers. Ten thousand versus a few hundred thousand low end is going to mean man flesh for the orcs.

There are more than ten thousand imperials, and entrenched, with Taken support(such as the boiling ground used at the Stair of Tear) the orcs will die as fast as they can attack.

Most battles have at most have number in the tens of thousands and that's at the do or die battles. Orcs exist in far greater numbers than that.

And the Taken can't holdout for ever. They can and do wear out eventually. Sure it'll be deadly while it last but they can be held off and worn down. And when they do, they're dead.

And you assume The Lady wouldn't be Sauron's bitch within minutes.

Why would she? She held off the Dominator.

She survived the Dominator. It's not the same thing.

[HemlockGrey]

Most battles have at most have number in the tens of thousands and that's at the do or die battles. Orcs exist in far greater numbers than that.

The battle at Charm had around 500K participants. That's more than 'tens of thousands'.

And the Taken can't holdout for ever. They can and do wear out eventually. Sure it'll be deadly while it last but they can be held off and worn down. And when they do, they're dead.

But a single blow can be devestating. Stormbringer can call down a dust storm or tremendous rainfall, disorienting orcs, hammer them to death with hailstones, etc. Shapeshifter simply transforms into another orc and poisons their water(when facing Gondor, instant victory: Shapeshift into man, slip inside city, open gates of Minas Tirith at night).

The Taken can and will kill hundreds of thousands of orcs. Boil them alive. Suck the heat out from the ground. Melt them. Do the 'bam-bam' trick. And, before they're exhausted, hop on their carpets and fly away.

She survived the Dominator. It's not the same thing.

She avoided becoming his unfailing, faithful bitch.

[Stormbringer]

Most battles have at most have number in the tens of thousands and that's at the do or die battles. Orcs exist in far greater numbers than that.

The battle at Charm had around 500K participants. That's more than 'tens of thousands'.

And that was nearly the whole Imperial Army. And none of the other battles have those numbers.

And the Taken can't holdout for ever. They can and do wear out eventually. Sure it'll be deadly while it last but they can be held off and worn down. And when they do, they're dead.

But a single blow can be devestating. Stormbringer can call down a dust storm or tremendous rainfall, disorienting orcs, hammer them to death with hailstones, etc. Shapeshifter simply transforms into another orc and poisons their water(when facing Gondor, instant victory: Shapeshift into man, slip inside city, open gates of Minas Tirith at night).

The Taken can and will kill hundreds of thousands of orcs. Boil them alive. Suck the heat out from the ground. Melt them. Do the 'bam-bam' trick. And, before they're exhausted, hop on their carpets and fly away.

One good blow like that and they're spent. They couldn't carpet out in those cases.

And would it really be wise to try and challenge the Nazgul weakened and in the air? Not to mention an old wyrm like Smaug?

She survived the Dominator. It's not the same thing.

She avoided becoming his unfailing, faithful bitch.

Only because she ambushed him before he ever opened up on her. It was like knifing a a Navy Seal in his speel. Any idiots can do it but you'd get stomped trying it any other time.

[HemlockGrey]

And that was nearly the whole Imperial Army. And none of the other battles have those numbers.

No, it wasn't. Whisper was running amok in the east with most of the imperial forces. Remember? Charm had to hold out for 8-11 days for the eastern army to get there.

One good blow like that and they're spent. They couldn't carpet out in those cases.

How do you figure? Stormbringer kept up the storm that covered the retreat from Lords for days. The boiling ground was one of many gambits in the battle for the Stair.

And even Barad-Dur would eventually fall. Soulcatcher alone took down Overlook, a fortress designed to withstand the apocaplyse, in just one year.

And would it really be wise to try and challenge the Nazgul weakened and in the air? Not to mention an old wyrm like Smaug?

So they keep a few screeners in the air as cover. What, exactly, are the heights of the Nazgul powers? I don't remember reading about them doing anything terribly impressive.

Only because she ambushed him before he ever opened up on her. It was like knifing a a Navy Seal in his speel. Any idiots can do it but you'd get stomped trying it any other time.

I'm referring to the time she spent under him during the Domination.

[Stormbringer]

And that was nearly the whole Imperial Army. And none of the other battles have those numbers.

No, it wasn't. Whisper was running amok in the east with most of the imperial forces. Remember? Charm had to hold out for 8-11 days for the eastern army to get there.

An army. As I said, nearly, but Whisper didn't have another half million troops to throw in. Mostly she just had fresh troops not the pouned troops at charm.

One good blow like that and they're spent. They couldn't carpet out in those cases.

How do you figure? Stormbringer kept up the storm that covered the retreat from Lords for days. The boiling ground was one of many gambits in the battle for the Stair.

Each of the big attacks were a day or so apart. The big attacks drained the Taken that did them. They have limits.

And even Barad-Dur would eventually fall. Soulcatcher alone took down Overlook, a fortress designed to withstand the apocaplyse, in just one year.

Poorly designed and run by a man too afraid to fight. Barad-Dur is neither of those things.

And would it really be wise to try and challenge the Nazgul weakened and in the air? Not to mention an old wyrm like Smaug?

So they keep a few screeners in the air as cover. What, exactly, are the heights of the Nazgul powers? I don't remember reading about them doing anything terribly impressive.

They're more or less invulnerable. And there is the knife trick. I was think more of them simply shredding the carpets and letting gravity doing the rest.

Now a dragon would simply bat them out of the sky or torch them.

Only because she ambushed him before he ever opened up on her. It was like knifing a a Navy Seal in his speel. Any idiots can do it but you'd get stomped trying it any other time.

I'm referring to the time she spent under him during the Domination.

Well, I'd say she was his bitch then.

And the Valar might well intervene. No force could stand against the Host of the West.

[HemlockGrey]

An army. As I said, nearly, but Whisper didn't have another half million troops to throw in. Mostly she just had fresh troops not the pouned troops at charm.

True, but she had enough to conquer the east.

Each of the big attacks were a day or so apart. The big attacks drained the Taken that did them. They have limits.

Yes, but the attacks were also hampered by the Circle of Eighteen. The big attacks will massacre orcs, and, as I said, men can be defeated simpy by sending Shapeshifter in a couple of days ahead of time.

Poorly designed and run by a man too afraid to fight. Barad-Dur is neither of those things.

Yes, of course. However, with all 10 Taken plus the Lady blasting away at it, Barad-Dur will fall.

They're more or less invulnerable. And there is the knife trick. I was think more of them simply shredding the carpets and letting gravity doing the rest.

They're not totally invulnerable. Kill their steeds or burn their cloaks. Weapons designed to kill them can. One-Eye, a weak wizard, designed a weapon to kill Taken. It is likely that all the hundreds of wizards in the Empire can design a weapon to kill Nazgul.

Besides, gravity has failed to kill Taken on multiple occasions. Journey plunged into the Duke of Juniper's castle and survived. Limper survived a fall. Soulcatcher plummeted a few hundred feet into a river outside of Taglios and came out just wet.

Now a dragon would simply bat them out of the sky or torch them.

Dragons are few. The Empire rounds up fifty wizards and belts spells at it.

Well, I'd say she was his bitch then.

She was merely weaker than he was. She was never subservient to him in the manner that Saruman was to Sauron.

And the Valar might well intervene. No force could stand against the Host of the West.

Hell no. The Valar would kick the asses of the Empire from here to sundown. However, this is the 3rd Age, the dawn of the age of men- I find that highly unlikely.

[Stormbringer]

An army. As I said, nearly, but Whisper didn't have another half million troops to throw in. Mostly she just had fresh troops not the pouned troops at charm.

True, but she had enough to conquer the east.

With virtually no opposition. The ability to pound on those weaker doesn't mean that you can do the same to everyone.

Each of the big attacks were a day or so apart. The big attacks drained the Taken that did them. They have limits.

Yes, but the attacks were also hampered by the Circle of Eighteen. The big attacks will massacre orcs, and, as I said, men can be defeated simpy by sending Shapeshifter in a couple of days ahead of time.

Sure the circle hampered them but they still could only mount those kind of attacks infrequently and it used the up to do it. Look at any of the encounters. Such attacks, even unopposed, exhaust them.

And the Orcs will die. But there are millions of them and they can and will get to the Taken same as the Rebel armies did. The orcs simply pin cushion them with arrows and burn them like the Company did to Taken on number of occasions.

Yes, Shifter would be a useful minion but he runs a major risk of getting caught sooner or later. Once he's caught he will be killed by shear numbers.

Poorly designed and run by a man too afraid to fight. Barad-Dur is neither of those things.

Yes, of course. However, with all 10 Taken plus the Lady blasting away at it, Barad-Dur will fall.

Assumming that they automatically can, maybe. Keep in mind that the Last Alliance couldn't completely destroy it. It's built with the One Ring so unless that goes into the fire it won't be a guarentee.

And if the Taken expose them selves, one slip and they're dead. Nice little lava flows. One dead and crispy Taken in a hurry.

They're more or less invulnerable. And there is the knife trick. I was think more of them simply shredding the carpets and letting gravity doing the rest.

They're not totally invulnerable. Kill their steeds or burn their cloaks. Weapons designed to kill them can. One-Eye, a weak wizard, designed a weapon to kill Taken. It is likely that all the hundreds of wizards in the Empire can design a weapon to kill Nazgul.

Sure you can destroy their clothes or kill their horse but neither effects the spirits.

And it's possible that they could design such a weapon once they figure out how it is the Nazgul are bound. But remember the Taken's wards are simply basic charms layered deep and with a lot of power behind them. The Nazgul are bound and kept in the spirit world by a completely different mechanism. To say they could do make a spear like that is oversimplifying the problem to the extreme.

Besides, gravity has failed to kill Taken on multiple occasions. Journey plunged into the Duke of Juniper's castle and survived. Limper survived a fall. Soulcatcher plummeted a few hundred feet into a river outside of Taglios and came out just wet.

True but they were exactly unscathed from the big falls. Howler's little collision with the Tower Of Charm seems to mark the begging of his wasting away. And they still get hurt. And if the ground is filled with orcs (or your own trap) you'll get killed in short order.

Now a dragon would simply bat them out of the sky or torch them.

Dragons are few. The Empire rounds up fifty wizards and belts spells at it.

Possible, but Bomanz (a top flight wizard) had a hard time putting down a rather puny dragon. Against a great old wyrm like Smaug they would be pretty damn ineffective.

Well, I'd say she was his bitch then.

She was merely weaker than he was. She was never subservient to him in the manner that Saruman was to Sauron.

Umm, she was weaker and did his bidding. Sounds like she was his bitch to me.

And the Valar might well intervene. No force could stand against the Host of the West.

Hell no. The Valar would kick the asses of the Empire from here to sundown. However, this is the 3rd Age, the dawn of the age of men- I find that highly unlikely.

Piss them off enough and they'll deliver an unholy ass whupping. Just ask Morogoth, Sauron, or Ar-Pharozan. And they can intervene much more subtely. More Isatri could be sent and perhaps even send some Maiar if things got desperate.

[HemlockGrey]

With virtually no opposition. The ability to pound on those weaker doesn't mean that you can do the same to everyone.

There were still Rebel generals and armies in the east.

Sure the circle hampered them but they still could only mount those kind of attacks infrequently and it used the up to do it. Look at any of the encounters. Such attacks, even unopposed, exhaust them.

Only on occasions. Silent, not a Taken, hit the Black Castle repeatedly with those paint-ball things. Limper kept up a continuous stream of melting dust. The Lady kept that thread of death going for a long time and was not particularly exhausted at the end of it.

Then there are the lesser wizards. Sleep attacks. The killing words used. That flashy, flarely thingy the Company wizards used against the forvalaka.

And the Orcs will die. But there are millions of them and they can and will get to the Taken same as the Rebel armies did. The orcs simply pin cushion them with arrows and burn them like the Company did to Taken on number of occasions.

So it went from 'hundreds of thousands' to 'millions', eh? I would like to see where in the books it says there are 'millions' of orcs.

And you assume that the imperial forces will engage all the orcs at once. Elite units like the Company or the Nightbringers can engage small portions of them, overwhelming them and then moving on to the next one.

Yes, Shifter would be a useful minion but he runs a major risk of getting caught sooner or later. Once he's caught he will be killed by shear numbers.

How would he possibly be caught?

Assumming that they automatically can, maybe. Keep in mind that the Last Alliance couldn't completely destroy it. It's built with the One Ring so unless that goes into the fire it won't be a guarentee.

Right- but it's unlikely the Lady will crisp the Ring. More likely she will, if she can kill Frodo or Gollum or whoever, will take it and use to evict Sauron.

And it's possible that they could design such a weapon once they figure out how it is the Nazgul are bound. But remember the Taken's wards are simply basic charms layered deep and with a lot of power behind them. The Nazgul are bound and kept in the spirit world by a completely different mechanism. To say they could do make a spear like that is oversimplifying the problem to the extreme.

Yes, it is. However, it is possible.

True but they were exactly unscathed from the big falls. Howler's little collision with the Tower Of Charm seems to mark the begging of his wasting away. And they still get hurt. And if the ground is filled with orcs (or your own trap) you'll get killed in short order.

Journey was merely bruised up. Soulcatcher just got the wind knocked out of her.

Umm, she was weaker and did his bidding. Sounds like she was his bitch to me.

I took you to mean she would be to Sauron like the Nazgul were- incapable of disobeying him.