An example of an unscientific scientist

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An example of an unscientific scientist

Post by Setesh »

This got sent to me for a laugh :lol:
Homer's "Iliad" tells the tale of the First Crusade. When we think of Homer's Troy, we imagine it in fantasy hues of times long gone. And yet the latest research conducted of one of the world's leading mathematicians proves it to us irrefutably: what we know as the "Trojan War" was in fact the First Crusade!

We aren't talking about obvious parallels between two major military campaigns separated by millennia - the Trojan War and the First Crusade are but different names of one and the same military campaign. The former ended up in the distant past due to the blatantly erroneous chronology that we use - one that was created by the Jesuits in the 16th 17th century. This chronology, regarded by many as the absolute historical truth, contains many gaps and repetitions. Most major historical events (as well as personalities and even places) have several phantom duplicates arbitrarily dated to various antediluvian epochs and presumed completely unrelated to one another - the Trojan War and the First Crusade are a perfect example. Our entire view of the so-called "Antiquity" and the Middle Ages changes radically; history becomes streamlined and unencumbered by all the dark ages, lost empires and mystical cyclic patterns that afflict the official version. The duplicates all roll into a single historical reality - Classical Greek poleis become one with the mediaeval Crusader states, ancient Egyptian paganism identifies as Coptic Christianity, and historical Troy, Constantinople and Jerusalem turn out to be the same city on the Bosporus, which we know as Istanbul. The city in Palestine known as Jerusalem today remained a nondescript Arabic settlement called El-Kuds until the 18th century. There isn't a single Crusader map in existence that would locate Jerusalem in Palestine (or indeed give us any detailed information about that region) - unlike modern historians, mediaeval cartographers knew the location of the Holy Land perfectly well.

Sounds absurd? Not if you have read "History: Fiction or Science?" by Professor Anatoly Fomenko - a brilliant mathematician and a true scientist to the core - unconfined by dogmatic thinking and determined to get to the bare historical truth at any cost.

Biblical nations of Gog and Magog were Goths alias Slavs.

How much do we know about the Goths? Those fortunate enough to keep at a sound distance from the historical discourse shall probably think of those numerous Bela Lugosi impersonators who live by their hairspray and their macabre aesthetics. Those who did devote some of their time to tearing through all the insurmountable dogma and inexplicable lacunae in place of vibrant ages and civilizations that one finds in history textbooks will doubtlessly think of Jordanes and Cassiodorus in this respect, and recollect the Goths to have been a group of Germanic tribes who swarmed Europe in the alleged 3rd century AD -- and "alleged" is a key word here -- to rape, pillage and terrorize. But how Germanic were they really, and when exactly have they been introduced to us as such?

According to Anatoly Fomenko, one of the world's leading mathematicians, the Goths were Slavic through and through. This alone would fail to make a piece of sensational news -- however, Fomenko redefines sensational telling us that the Gothic tribes were none other but the Biblical nations of Gog and Magog! That might sound like nonsense -- after all, don't the Old Testament events date back to times immemorial?

"History: Fiction or Science?" is a phenomenal and unprecedented scientific experiment since neither state-of-the-art methods of mathematical statistics nor astronomical data have ever been applied to history before. One would expect such a procedure to yield interesting results -- but "interesting" doesn't remotely approach the results of Fomenko's research. Ancient and mediaeval history transform into a phantom, leaving us with a historical period of a single millennium to encompass everything from Jesus Christ (who is proved to have lived in the 11th century AD) to our time. Definitely nonsense and positively impossible, you say? Just wait till you get infected with the New Chronology meme, and mark our words -- looking back at your vehement support of consensual history will be most embarrassing indeed!
The video it came with...
Bullshit!!!

The author, Анато́лий Тимофе́евич Фоме́нко(Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko), is apparently a Mathmaticion at the Moskow State University, and a complete loon. His assertion (if you couldn't get through the gibberish above) is that 16th century Jesuits fabricated most of the history before 1000CE using events around them. He convinantly ignores all evidence to the contrary by saying its either 'misinturpreted' or 'a jesuit fabrication'.

I find the blurb aboves closing words apt this isn't a scientific theory its an infectious meme. Possibly a mutation of the dreaded YEC.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Sounds like the good "professor's" science degree came from a Fundie diploma mill.
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Post by Setesh »

Patrick Degan wrote:Sounds like the good "professor's" science degree came from a Fundie diploma mill.
In communist russia of the 60's?
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Post by nickolay1 »

Yeah, I'm pretty sure no such mills existed. According to my own father however (a retired Ministry of Internal Affairs officer), there were cases of counterfeiting of diplomas being uncovered.
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Post by Molyneux »

...so he's simultaneously spitting on history, archaeology, Greek mythology AND the intelligence of anyone reading his article?

That might well be a new record...
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

His degree could be legitimate, if he's a mathematician. It's not as if mathematicians are the same thing as scientists, and in fact, the mentality of mathematics is ironically incompatible with the philosophy of science, even though science requires mathematics. That's because mathematics is based on proof via logical deduction from unquestioned truths in the form of certain a priori statements, since math is a man-made system. That is not how science works, and many mathematicians may misinterpret science's failure to behave like mathematics as an excuse to dismiss science (that's why many mathematicians are creationists).

Besides, the Unabomber was a legitimate mathematician too, and he was also loony.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

I have to agree with Mike. The course pimping creationism I got stuck with was taught by a fellow with a maths degree who insisted science was flawed because it didnt deal with a perfect world like maths does...

Pointing out that it did however deal with a real one cut no ice with him.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Keevan_Colton wrote:I have to agree with Mike. The course pimping creationism I got stuck with was taught by a fellow with a maths degree who insisted science was flawed because it didnt deal with a perfect world like maths does...

Pointing out that it did however deal with a real one cut no ice with him.
Punch him from me the next time you see him. I can't be doing with solipsism or anything resembling it.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:I have to agree with Mike. The course pimping creationism I got stuck with was taught by a fellow with a maths degree who insisted science was flawed because it didnt deal with a perfect world like maths does...

Pointing out that it did however deal with a real one cut no ice with him.
Punch him from me the next time you see him. I can't be doing with solipsism or anything resembling it.
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Post by Captain Cyran »

If I may ask. How the hell does being a Mathematician make you a qualified historian?

But one of the more blatantly stupid things I saw was the Crusades being to avenge Jesus shortly after his being killed in Istanbul. That's right, a 33 year old man from the Middle East managed to make a religion that became the major religion of an entire seperate continent in, we'll even give him 15 years. Let's not even get into the messed up time paradoxs that creates with Europe.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

As people already pointed out, being knowledgeable in one area doesn't preclude you from idiotism in the other.

However, generally the ability to learn something complex is setting a high IQ level barrier and enables that people are well-versed in logical thinking, too.

Too bad there are minor exceptions to the rule "learning complex stuff eliminates the ability for idiocy".
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Post by Setesh »

Wikipedia wrote:Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko (Russian: Анато́лий Тимофе́евич Фоме́нко) (born 13 March 1945) is a Russian mathematician, professor of Moscow State University, well-known as a topologist, and a full member of the Russian Academy of Sciences. He was born in Donetsk, Ukraine.

Historical work

Fomenko is the inventor of a pseudo-historical narrative he calls "New Chronology." Fomenko asserts that all of ancient history -- including Greece, Rome, and Egypt -- is a falsification invented by monks in the early modern period and based on events that really occurred in the Middle Ages.

Other interests

Anatoly T. Fomenko was born in 1945. He is a full member (Academician) of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences and the International Higher Education Academy of Sciences, as well as a doctor of physics and mathematics, a professor, and head of the Differential Geometry Department of the Faculty of Mathematics and Mechanics in Moscow State University. He solved the classical Plateau’s Problem from the theory of minimal spectral surfaces. Fomenko is the author of the theory of invariants and topological classification of integrable Hamiltonian dynamic systems. He is the author of 180 scientific publications, 26 monographs and textbooks on mathematics, a specialist in geometry and topology, variational calculus, symplectic topology, Hamiltonian geometry and mechanics, and computer geometry. Fomenko is also the author of a number of books on the development of new empirico-statistical methods and their application to the analysis of historical chronicles as well as the chronology of antiquity and the Middle Ages.

Fomenko is the author of extensive writings in his original fields of mathematics, and is also famous for his original drawings, inspired by topological objects and structures (http://anatoly-fomenko.com).
From this and other sources I'd have to guess his psuedo-history is based on bad probability math and statistics. (The addy at the bottom goes to his art page.)
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Post by Battlehymn Republic »

I don't see how this is so shocking. He's apparently considered a very well-respected mathematician specializing in topology, but that doesn't mean he can't be crazy in some fields. There are loads of famous scientists who have a darker, unscientific side:

Sir Isaac Newton- He was an alchemist, theologian, and an occultist.

Sir Martin Rees- Promoter of the anthropic principle, Doomsday Theory, criticizes particle accelerators.

Arthur Clarke- Believes that there are trees on Mars.

Bill Joy- Hysterical over threat of nanotechnology.

Freeman Dyson- Critical of global warming. He's also quite religious, I think.
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Post by Wyrm »

Is anyone else disturbed by the obviously synthesized voice talking during the spiel? I guess this guy and his publisher couldn't get even one announcer willing to read this wack-a-loony-toony claptrap. I wonder why. :roll:
Historical Moron wrote:We aren't talking about obvious parallels between two major military campaigns separated by millennia - the Trojan War and the First Crusade are but different names of one and the same military campaign. The former ended up in the distant past due to the blatantly erroneous chronology that we use - one that was created by the Jesuits in the 16th 17th century. This chronology, regarded by many as the absolute historical truth, contains many gaps and repetitions.
I don't know a historian today would regard the Jesuit chronology as absolute truth. After all, the Trojan war was thought to be apochryphal until Schliemann dug up a likely site. The gaps are explainable from the incompleteness of actual records, and the repetitions are more likely due to the history actually repeating itself due to man's idiocy than to chronological fudging.
Hysterical Moron wrote:...history becomes streamlined and unencumbered by all the dark ages, lost empires and mystical cyclic patterns that afflict the official version. The duplicates all roll into a single historical reality - Classical Greek poleis become one with the mediaeval Crusader states, ancient Egyptian paganism identifies as Coptic Christianity...
Dispite archeological evidence that both civilizations existed well before Christ (and before the Roman Empire, which has a massive archeological and historical basis), therefore before the Crusades and Christianity, and had great empires before falling.
Crazy Russian Math Guy wrote:...and historical Troy, Constantinople and Jerusalem turn out to be the same city on the Bosporus, which we know as Istanbul. The city in Palestine known as Jerusalem today remained a nondescript Arabic settlement called El-Kuds until the 18th century.
WOW! Constantinople and Istanbul were the same city! What a news flash! Here's another one! We know that Constantinople was formerly known as Byzantium before Constantine made it the new capital of the Roman Empire, and later became the capital of the Bysantine empire (which Jerusalem itself never was). Can't cover everything, I guess. :roll:

Guess he also forgot that the first crusades were to recapture Jerusalem, but the fourth crusade was diverted from Jerusalem to capture Constantinople. How could a crusade be diverted to a place that was the original target of that crusade?

I guess he also forgot that Istanbul is on an isthmus, and Homer's Troy wasn't. We have records, from what ammounts to the Hittite foreign office, of a small kingdom the Hittites had signed a treaty with, which was ruled from Williusa (Illios, on of Homer's names for Troy?), with the crown prince Alaksandus (Alexandros, AKA Paris of Troy?). This city was attacked and destroyed by a power the then-king of the Hittites, Hattusili III, called Ahkeawa (the Aechean Greeks?), which had an outpost city Millawanda (Miletus?). The Hittite empire fell in 1180 BC, two and a half millennia before the Jesuits even existed. How could an ancient imperial foreign office have records of a fabricated war, where these records were only discovered just last century? Further, there is an ancient Anatolian city near the Dardanelles that once was a city of great splendor and destroyed around 1300 BC, and is the likely cite of the historical Trojan war, though not necessarily Homer's Troy itself.

Being dead wrong on your first points is not a good start.
Wikipedia wrote:Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko
...
Historical work

Fomenko is the inventor of a pseudo-historical narrative he calls "New Chronology." Fomenko asserts that all of ancient history -- including Greece, Rome, and Egypt -- is a falsification invented by monks in the early modern period and based on events that really occurred in the Middle Ages.
I guess all those ancient artifacts and ruins (especially in the case of Egypt, a few fucking tall mounds of stones called pyramids) supposedly left behind by these civilizations are fabrications of the Jesuits, too. The Jesuits must have been the old Illuminati. :wanker:
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Keevan_Colton wrote: I prefer kicking serious sollipsists in the balls anyway and then pointing out how much they must dislike themselves since I'm a figment of their imagination.
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Post by Darth Wong »

It's nice that you're adding quotes to your sig, but WTF are all those blank lines for? Your sig takes up too much vertical space.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

What concerns Fomenko - he's a pseudohistorian.

Long denounced by all sane historians in the world.

He actually invented his "New Chronology" for fun and I believe he even claimed that it was nothing but an ill joke, but his "hardcore" believers already were running around with his bullshit and didn't pay attention.

There's plenty of information on the Web about his pseudohistoric lies and distortions.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

I love how they keep repeating "he's a brilliant mathmatician", as though that somehow validates his historical ramblings.
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Post by rhoenix »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I love how they keep repeating "he's a brilliant mathmatician", as though that somehow validates his historical ramblings.
I think it's a similar sort of dodge as when one asks if someone is hot, and one gets the answer "Well, they have a nice personality..."

Saying he's a "brilliant mathemetician" in reference to his (lack of) grasp of history is an unintentional and subtle insult, I think.
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Post by fgalkin »

Oh, Fomenko. I've actually debunked every single claim of his in one of his books at age 14, using the knowledge of my history classes and an encyclopedia. My favorite one was "the Mongol invasion did not happen. Why? Well, according to historians, the Mongols used straw shields. Now look at the Mongol warrior -> heavily armored. Can you imagine him with a straw shield? It's nonsense! Therefore, the Mongol invasion never occured."

Yes, that was an actual argument.

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Post by Il Saggiatore »

Battlehymn Republic wrote: There are loads of famous scientists who have a darker, unscientific side:
You can add to your list:

Galileo Galilei: he did the horoscopes for his daughters.

Prof. B. Josephson: Nobel-prize winner and now busy with his Mind-Matter Unification project.

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Post by Battlehymn Republic »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I love how they keep repeating "he's a brilliant mathmatician", as though that somehow validates his historical ramblings.
It doesn't validate anything, but it makes the person more interesting that way. Like all of the people I've mentioned. And Nikola Tesla.
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