SE V Demo OUT!

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2006-09-22 07:33pm

I still can't figure out how to make freaking orbital construction bases...

Sharpshooter · Post by **Sharpshooter** » 2006-09-22 07:58pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Several mods already do that in SE4 (they call it grid based research), but I don't personally like it. It's more realistic, but you have to look through the data files in order to find out what the hell your research is even going toward. Otherwise, you're stumbling around blind. The B5 mod is the worst offender in this regard.

It shouldn't have anything really out-there that requires you to go file-diving - mainly chemestry for armor materials, power generation for brute weapon strength. Still, I'll keep that in mind.

There won't be any numerical difference between starting the y-intercept (for lack of a better word) at level 1 and using the %Level - 1% operator and starting it at lvl 0 and using %Level%, although I think the second method requires less work for the modder.

Odd, I just did a number crunch and it checks out as tweaking them just enough to get them level. Mineral Miners, Shield Generators, Wave-Motion Guns, and Research Centers using level 100 as the theoretical max:

Old: 3000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 100) = 12900
New: 3000 + ([%Level%] * 100) = 13000

Old: 100 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 20) = 2080
New: 100 + ([%Level%] * 20) = 2100

Old: (100 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 5)) - (([%Range%] / 10) * 0.00) - iif([%Range%] > Min(160, (([%Level%] - 1) * 0) + 80), 10000, 0) = 595
New: (100 + ([%Level%] * 5) - (([%Range%] / 10) * 0.00) - iif([%Range%] > Min(160, ([%Level%] * 0) + 80), 10000, 0) = 600

(All right, truth be told I have no idea how the hell that second half is supposed to work, so I just used the first number set)

Old: 500 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 50) = 5450
New: 500 + ([%Level%] * 50) = 5500

I could of course be missing something, but as far as I'm aware it seems to check out. I'll do a run-through of a bunch more just to be safe, though.

You can easily include fewer vehicle types in your mod if you want to.

True, but I'm worried about base and the like. Even if it never gets used in that form, it's still got to have the proper match-ups for that since that's where everything stems from, and my complaint's really an attack on the whole notion and the shipset an aside.

Rule #1 of modding: Get creative, but don't try to take a mod in a completely different direction than the game its based on. Nine gets you ten it won't work. In this case, you run into the fact that there's no way to separate strategic and combat moves. The only way to do this is to include a self-repairing, high-movement emergency propulsion component. It works, but it's a huge pain in the ass to have to activate it for every single ship on every single turn.

Yes, sir...

The boards you want are the Shrapnel Games forums located here

Ah, many thanks.

InnocentBystander wrote:I still can't figure out how to make freaking orbital construction bases...

I think someone (Arthur, IIRC) mentioned that they got nerfed a bit and got placed higher up in terms of required tech. Your situation?

EDIT: JUst did a data dive, space yards come in at level 10 of the field by the same name.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-09-22 11:01pm

Nephtys wrote:The only issue with BTech is that dropships can't be properly modeled. They can't jump, else what's the point of feeble Jumpships carrying them, and they can't be fighters, because fighters don't carry cargo.

I really can't see a 2.5 million tonne McKenna flying into atmos and landing a batallion of mechs.

I made the decision to remove the jumpships, since SEIV and presumably V don't support ships that carry ships.

Think of them like civilian traffic - you know it's there, it's just not represented. It's assumed you always have a JumpShip to take your DropShips from system to system. It's not like people actually attacked JumpShips back in the old days - it was against the Ares Conventions.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-09-22 11:12pm

Why not make jump ships warp point openers and closers. Presumably having warp point openers and closers won't change the balance that much since there's no space combat, but it'd make for a lot of maneuver warfare. I'd rather shuttle mechs around, like a cat and mouse game trying to find the other guy's mechs if I know I've got more, or running if I know I have less and trying to slowly sap his resources. All the intel like force concentrations and system maps could come through intel projects, which could be cheap and difficult to defend against, if you rip out all the broken intel projects.

I noticed units now have maintainence, so it should be pretty simple to very tightly control the number of mechs, if you make maintainence 100% and get rid of maintainence reducing cultures. The only problem with making mechs take a long time to make is if your mechs are annihilated, it's game over. Instead I suggest mechs very quickly built, but their number controlled with 100% maintainence. Should be possible for a backwater colony to shit out a catapult or two. After one big battle of mechs, it should not be over.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-09-22 11:26pm

These are good ideas Brian, thanks.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-09-22 11:30pm

GuppyShark wrote:These are good ideas Brian, thanks.

Not sure if they're good or not. And why simulate the actual drop ship? Simulate the jump ship in the strategic map... It's not like the jump ship actually lands... what you can do is make different levels of cargo hold components represent different kinds of dropships with a cool graphic. Then someone builds a 2.5 million ton jump ship, with drop ships inside. You can make the maintainence for jump ships 100% too, to tightly control the available strategic lift.

There, modeled drop ships inside jump ships

.

The number of jump ships in a galaxy could be controlled by making them require one kind of resource to build and mechs another. And the jump ships could open and close warp points... actually jump. If there's a limited amount of strategic lift you could make the resource, let's say rads, only mineable from some facility that takes 50 years to make like in B5 and appears when you start out on your homeworld. Maybe one jump ship per homeworld.

<edit>Hm scratch that... drop ships have to be different from jump ships just because they're so much more massive. So when there's a planetary invasion what exactly happens... does a jump ship appear in orbit of a planet and launch all its drop ships, or does a jump ship appear at the edge of a solar system, launch a few drop ships then take off somewhere else? Maybe you're right and it's better leaving them out, or making them separate warp point openers and closers, but controlled so one empire can only make say one per homeworld.</edit>

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-09-23 12:05am

The latter. The JumpShips appear in system near the primary, or in one of the Lagrange points (so called "pirate points"). They then launch the DropShips. Whether the jump ship stays or leaves usually depends on the mission, usually the JumpShips are needed to ferry reinforcements elsewhere or run cargo.

They're rare enough that they're protected by the Ares Conventions and common enough that even Mercenary companies have been known to possess them.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-09-23 12:13am

GuppyShark wrote:The latter. The JumpShips appear in system near the primary, or in one of the Lagrange points (so called "pirate points"). They then launch the DropShips. Whether the jump ship stays or leaves usually depends on the mission, usually the JumpShips are needed to ferry reinforcements elsewhere or run cargo.

They're rare enough that they're protected by the Ares Conventions and common enough that even Mercenary companies have been known to possess them.

Well that is a... problem. Maybe better to leave them out or if you want more maneuver warfare, make 1 supportable per homeworld and it can open or close warp points.

Fucking wierd how BT invades whole planets with 36 mechs. Anyway porting BT over to the ground combat will obviously be the key if there's no research... figuring out how much distance on the map is one hex and how much base speed means one hex.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-09-23 12:34am

You know that pod that shoots out of a ship when it drops troops in SEV? That's your drop ship.

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2006-09-23 12:38am

THanks for the answers everyone. I'll wind up buying SEV I'm sure as my sourness over MOO3 has waned and I'm ready for a new 4x game.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-09-23 12:43am

Sharpshooter wrote:It shouldn't have anything really out-there that requires you to go file-diving - mainly chemestry for armor materials, power generation for brute weapon strength. Still, I'll keep that in mind.

If you make it clear what kind of research yields what results, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Odd, I just did a number crunch and it checks out as tweaking them just enough to get them level. Mineral Miners, Shield Generators, Wave-Motion Guns, and Research Centers using level 100 as the theoretical max:

Old: 3000 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 100) = 12900
New: 3000 + ([%Level%] * 100) = 13000

Old: 100 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 20) = 2080
New: 100 + ([%Level%] * 20) = 2100

Old: (100 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 5)) - (([%Range%] / 10) * 0.00) - iif([%Range%] > Min(160, (([%Level%] - 1) * 0) + 80), 10000, 0) = 595
New: (100 + ([%Level%] * 5) - (([%Range%] / 10) * 0.00) - iif([%Range%] > Min(160, ([%Level%] * 0) + 80), 10000, 0) = 600

(All right, truth be told I have no idea how the hell that second half is supposed to work, so I just used the first number set)

Old: 500 + (([%Level%] - 1) * 50) = 5450
New: 500 + ([%Level%] * 50) = 5500

I could of course be missing something, but as far as I'm aware it seems to check out. I'll do a run-through of a bunch more just to be safe, though.

Oh, I see what you mean. You could also terminate the techs at level 101 instead of 100.

Rule #1 of modding: Get creative, but don't try to take a mod in a completely different direction than the game its based on. Nine gets you ten it won't work. In this case, you run into the fact that there's no way to separate strategic and combat moves. The only way to do this is to include a self-repairing, high-movement emergency propulsion component. It works, but it's a huge pain in the ass to have to activate it for every single ship on every single turn.
Yes, sir...

Ugh. Don't say that. That's what the punk ass high schoolers say when I tell them to do stuff.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-09-23 01:47am

One thing that really stuck with me was when someone once said that people who say "sir" often really mean "asshole".

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-09-26 02:47pm

Definitely a keeper (yes I only got around to firing it up today!), even with the funny 'Access Violation at 0x0000000whatever' error. It's definitely quite a bit more involved than SEIV.

So far I had two turns done, some basic research on the stove, and just made my first ship design, a heavily-armored four-engined beastie of a frigate with two DU railguns and a capship missile launcher. My race was science-geek birdmen I called Furiyans or Furyine set against a race of dumb, brutish warrior fascist Humans (silly Mon'Keighs...)

Overall, I'm buying this game!

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-09-26 03:36pm

Cool. We're definitely having an SDN game when it comes out, so get ready for a whuppin'!

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2006-09-30 08:33am

What's the deal with Torpedos, why would anybody use AM torps when Quantum Torps cost and weigh the same and do more damage and have longer range?

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2006-09-30 09:19am

From playing it a bit a week ago, I find it to be very expansive compared to other games. I really like the multitudes of research that you have to figure out which to stress as well as the ability to design the ship's emplacements. There's a lot of stuff in the interface but thankfully it is all organized. I didn't go very far then but I think I'll pick up the game and join you guys.

Any idea if buying SE5 on Amazon will include SE4? EBGames is selling it with SE4 included in the box but I rather go to Amazon since I still have my free Prime membership.