Straha wrote:Personally, I always thought that the STGOD1 and STGOD4 approach of "Zomg! Battlestations are useless!" was rather annoying,
Way to obnoxiously misrepresent decisions I had a prominent role in making in previous games--I'm sure the reason you were annoyed by those rules was because you constantly try to play as a complete "turtle" by concentrating entirely on fortifications and ground forces at the expense of your fleet. The reason we made battlestations useless was because, logically speaking, fixed fortifications in outer space are an incredibly stupid and unworkable idea.
and would much prefer to see actually useful fortifications in this game, I.E. Fortifications which would cause enough damage to a battle fleet so as to ensure that no direct attack will be taken against the fortifications for fear of serious losses.
Your thoughts?
Quite apart from direct battle experience there's a body of theoretical literature on the efficacy of coastal fortifications, and it would not be unfair to use WWI examples to draw general themes. Coastal fortifications were a mixed bag. In confined waters (like straits and so forth) they could inflict damage even on capital ships. However, when the warships have room to maneuver, they are very difficult for coastal artillery to hit, and there is also the problem of gun power--perhaps counterintuitively, battleships tend to have heavier weaponry than coastal batteries (capital ships are better able to deal with the tremendous recoil of big guns and so forth). This gives them more range and power. Pop-up gun emplacements and earthworks make coastal forts somewhat resistant to naval shellfire, but direct hits from the main battery of a battleship simply aren't survivable. The battleship can move in and out of range, necessitating the coastal fort to constantly resight, whereas the coastal fort isn't going anywhere and is a sitting duck.
So, given open waters, a force of BBs will reliably silence coastal batteries. However, smaller warships (armoured cruisers, say) will be nearly impotent to do the same, because of their smaller guns.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
Straha wrote:Personally, I always thought that the STGOD1 and STGOD4 approach of "Zomg! Battlestations are useless!" was rather annoying,
Way to obnoxiously misrepresent decisions I had a prominent role in making in previous games--I'm sure the reason you were annoyed by those rules was because you constantly try to play as a complete "turtle" by concentrating entirely on fortifications and ground forces at the expense of your fleet. The reason we made battlestations useless was because, logically speaking, fixed fortifications in outer space are an incredibly stupid and unworkable idea.
Actually I don't believe I had any Space Stations in STGOD4, certainly none I tried to use, because my Space Stations were blown away in the big battle over Terra in STGOD1 without a second thought and I tried to learn from my mistakes. As for fixed fortifications in space being unworkable, I can agree it's a stupid idea if the opposing fleet is willing to sit back well beyond range and chuck asteroids at the station, but if the battle is taking place in the same orbit as the stations they should count for something.
(And "turtle"? Me!?! I'm vaguely offended. Turtling would imply I didn't do anything in game offensivley, which I'm sure you remember I did [and let my pugnaciousness and trust get the better of me,] I always viewed the Monacoran Army-First doctrine as both a continuation of an off-hand idea I had ages ago (I was probably twelve at the time...), and a decision that because I could never out-compete everyone for space domination, I should just focus quite explicitly on something I could control without contest, while still proving useful.)
and would much prefer to see actually useful fortifications in this game, I.E. Fortifications which would cause enough damage to a battle fleet so as to ensure that no direct attack will be taken against the fortifications for fear of serious losses.
Your thoughts?
Quite apart from direct battle experience there's a body of theoretical literature on the efficacy of coastal fortifications, and it would not be unfair to use WWI examples to draw general themes. Coastal fortifications were a mixed bag. In confined waters (like straits and so forth) they could inflict damage even on capital ships. However, when the warships have room to maneuver, they are very difficult for coastal artillery to hit, and there is also the problem of gun power--perhaps counterintuitively, battleships tend to have heavier weaponry than coastal batteries (capital ships are better able to deal with the tremendous recoil of big guns and so forth). This gives them more range and power. Pop-up gun emplacements and earthworks make coastal forts somewhat resistant to naval shellfire, but direct hits from the main battery of a battleship simply aren't survivable. The battleship can move in and out of range, necessitating the coastal fort to constantly resight, whereas the coastal fort isn't going anywhere and is a sitting duck.
So, given open waters, a force of BBs will reliably silence coastal batteries. However, smaller warships (armoured cruisers, say) will be nearly impotent to do the same, because of their smaller guns.
I knew that Battleships tended to have larger guns than shore emplacements going all the way back to the 17th Century, but I didn't know that the range of battleships was signifigantly greater, which has me curious what were the range for the shore batteries of the Victorian Era? Also, how effective was fortress armour of Victorian Era? (And are there any direct examples for the time period we're talking about, except for Port Arthur and WWI [which I had thought was decades more advanced than us because of the collapse of Europe]?)
In case you were wondering, A-Wing, that lil message is directed at you. I think Richard may in fact be King in fact of only 1 island (with the other 2 united by alliance,) or king of three islands, but whatever.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
Thirdfain wrote:In case you were wondering, A-Wing, that lil message is directed at you. I think Richard may in fact be King in fact of only 1 island (with the other 2 united by alliance,) or king of three islands, but whatever.
I didn't explain my system of government well, so sorry for the confusion.
The Government of the Alliance of United Kingdoms (AUK)
The AUK is not a single, monolithic state. Rather, it is a federation made up of the firve kingdoms and their various islands, that make up the AUK. Each of the five kingdoms (those of Sumba, Sumbawa, Flores, West Timor, and East Timor) is relatively autonomous in its internal affairs, but is by law politicaly subservient to the central government. The five monarchs of the Alliance form the Council of Kings, the highest governing body of the Alliance. The council elects one of its members to be the symbolic head of the Alliance every five years. Termed the "King of Kings," he is the symbolic head of state, and Commander in Chief of the Royal Alliance Navy. Richard I, King of Sumba, has held the title King of Kings for the AUK's entire existence, due to his kingdom's wealth and industrial/tehcnological power.
The lower governing body of the Alliance, the Parliament, is made up of delegations from each of the five kingdoms, and is charged with the everyday buisness of government. It also has a limited right to challenge royal authority, and in practice has an equal say in setting Alliance policy. Each Kingdom elects its delegation differently. Sumba, with its strong British influence, elects its delegation by popular vote. The delegation for Flores, on the other hand, consists of the island's ruling nobility.
In short, the AUK is a federation of five somewhat autonomous kingdoms, with Richard I, King of Sumba, King of Kings of the Alliance of United Kingdom, as its head of state. Hope that clears things up.
Last edited by A-Wing_Slash on 2006-09-30 07:31pm, edited 1 time in total.
Straha wrote:I knew that Battleships tended to have larger guns than shore emplacements going all the way back to the 17th Century, but I didn't know that the range of battleships was signifigantly greater, which has me curious what were the range for the shore batteries of the Victorian Era?
Seriously? Exacting figures on ranges aren't easy for me to find, but among guns of equivalent technology and type, the larger caliber has longer range.
Here's a website devoted to the Palmerston forts of Victorian-era Britain, which has exhaustive information on the subject at hand. You can examine it at your leisure, but generally speaking the "average" armament for one of these forts in our era would be a battery of 9.2 inch guns and another of 6 inch guns. Considering that the average battleship had a main battery of 12-14 inch guns, a fort would typically be substantially outranged. Some forts had bigger guns, like perhaps a 12.5 inch battery, but this was less common.
Also, how effective was fortress armour of Victorian Era?
Armour is a misnomer; coastal forts usually relied upon earthworks and thick concrete to defend them. And as I said before, the works of a coastal fort would allow the guns to survive near misses, and potentially even hits from smaller (6-8 inch) shells, but bombardment from a battleship's main battery would put the fort out of action in short order.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
In the era we're discussing, range is typically line of sight; the methods used to calculate beyond that don't exist. Now, explicitly stated in my OOB, the home of Babbage is able to use his computing engines to resolve extreme-range, but that's in land emplacements. Whether it's on my small navy, well.. State secret.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Here's the history of my nation that I've been working on. I'll try and finish up the OOB as quickly as possible. If I've made any major historical gaffes, please point them out. I only have a high school education, (I'm leaving for college in four days! Whee!) so I might have gotten some things wrong. For instance, I think my nations attitude on race is really progressive for this time period, and I'm not sure how much of an arms race there would have been in Europe without Germany and England competing with each other.
The People’s Republic of India
Head of State: President Eli Greene
Head of Government: Prime Minister Reginald Cohen
History
The Third Mutiny that erupted in India after the start of the Great War in Europe pushed British colonists to the edge. The British Indian Army, stretched thin by the recall of troops to fight for the home islands and the rightful queen, struggled to hold back the native forces threatening to destroy the gem of the British Empire. Despite their lack of manpower, it at first appeared that they would succeed.
However, the decision of the Royal Portuguese Governor to supply arms to the rebelling Indians ended any chance of holding onto the interior of India. With modern weapons and a huge numerical advantage, the natives forced the colonists to free back to Madras, the original colony of the British East India Company. With the help of Loyalist Indians, the British made their last stand, and stymied efforts of the native princes to take back these last refuges of British power in the Orient. Soon, the rebelling Indians fell upon each other in a series of religious and territorial wars that would result in the creation of the Hindu Raj. This gave the colonists time to rebuild and reorganize to the point that they were able to repel any more attempts by the Indians to remove them.
Soon, the British were joined by radicals from Europe, fleeing the warfare and oppression that continued on the continent, and from abolitionists who emigrated from the United States after its inability to win the war against the Confederacy when they won French aid. The ferocious religious wars in the interior also drove many Muslims and moderate Hindus seeking religious freedom to the eastern coast.
Government
The colonists who survived the Third Mutiny felt no loyalty to the new British Monarch, or the monarchy in general. They felt abandoned by their mother country, and saw themselves as a new nation that had proven itself through its own tenacity and self-reliance. With the help of the new immigrants, the colonists in 1872 created a new Constitution, and formed the People’s Republic of India.
The governmental style was a compromise between the Presidential system advocated by the Americans and the Parliamentary system promoted by the British and most of the other European immigrants. The nation is led by the President who is elected by the majority of the people, but he shares his power with the Parliament. While he chooses his Prime Minister and the members of his government from the Parliament, they must confirm these choices. The system was designed to put the President in charge of foreign policy, while the Prime Minister handles domestic policy.
Politics
The People’s Republic of India believes that the Great War was caused primarily by nationalism, and the different, petty groups each pushing for there own slice of Europe to rule. Because of the influence of the abolitionists from the United States, the people of the Republic believe that all human beings are equal, and thus push for greater international cooperation.
There are currently two factions in the government, the Modernists and the Internationalists. The Modernists believe that the way to create international cooperation is by being a beacon of progressive ideas, using trade, education, and diplomacy to build harmony between men and nations. They fear excessive military spending will lead to the same type of arms race that they believe caused the Great War. The Internationalists are more radical, however, and believe that a strong military is necessary to preserve the enlightened politics of the Republic. The most radical Internationalists even believe that force should be used to spread the Republic’s beliefs to less enlightened nations, but they are marginalized by the leaders of the faction.
The current President, Eli Greene, is a Modernist, as is most the majority of the Parliament. However, the Internationalists have made larger gains in recent elections, as the public is spooked by the large buildup of military force by other nations in the Indian Ocean.
Military
Because the Hindu Raj still covets its territory, the Republic has maintained a large army built around a professional core of soldiers armed with the most modern weapons available. The original colonist have not forgotten that the Real Estado da India supplied the rebelling natives with arms, and so still view them with distrust, and, fearing that they may be hostile again, have pushed for large coastal forts to keep their large navy at bay.
However, the naval forces of the Republic are much smaller, due to the fact that the Modernists have controlled the government for decades. In fact, until recently, the only naval forces to speak of were aging, bulky torpedo boats built by the colonists after their naval forces left for England in the 1860’s. However, with the recent political gains of the Internationalists, and growing public pressure, President Greene has been forced to modernize the Navy. The Torpedo Boats were refitted with 12 pound guns and converted into Torpedo Destroyers, and several large capital ships were created to defend local waters.
Greene feels that this naval force is sufficient, but the Internationalists are pushing for more, and the public largely agrees with them. With new parliamentary elections coming in sixth months, this may threaten the Modernist hold on the government.
EDIT: Resources, given by Thirdfain:
Coal
Cotton
Spices
Opium
Also, removed Calcutta from my backstory.
Last edited by Cincinnatus on 2006-09-22 03:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Straha wrote:I knew that Battleships tended to have larger guns than shore emplacements going all the way back to the 17th Century, but I didn't know that the range of battleships was signifigantly greater, which has me curious what were the range for the shore batteries of the Victorian Era?
Seriously? Exacting figures on ranges aren't easy for me to find, but among guns of equivalent technology and type, the larger caliber has longer range.
I knew that, I just didn't know that the range was much greater than what forts carried in the time period. Shows what I get for not studying the time period in any depth.
What was the conclusion reached on buying ships from other countries? Is there no practical way to do it?
EDIT: I also have a newbie question on trading resources. If I have a resource, coal for example, and I trade it with someone else for another resourse, for example sulfur, do I then count as having both coal and sulfur? Or did I trade away all my coal for that turn, leaving me with just the sulfur I traded for?
Here is my preliminary OOB. Any advice/criticicism is appreciated.
People’s Republican Navy
The People’s Republican Navy is designed to defend local waters only; political considerations have prevented any effort to be put into force projection. Because of this, no cruisers have been constructed, and the navy only consists of battleships and torpedo boat destroyers.
Liberty Class Battleship
PRS Liberty
PRS Freedom
15,000 tons
6x13 inch guns
12x6 inch guns
6x6 pounders
6x3 pounders
10x18 inch torpedo tubes
Firepower-70
Protection-40
Speed-20
Maneuver-20
300 points
x2= 600 points
Emancipation Class Battleship
PRS Emancipation
PRS Suffrage
10,000 tons
2x13 inch guns
3x6 inch guns
6x6 pounders
6x3 pounders
3x18 inch torpedo tubes
Firepower-40
Protection-20
Speed-20
Maneuver-20
200 points
x2=400
People’s Republican Army Infantry Divisions
The core of the Army is made up of veterans from the British Indian Army, but new recruits have been added from new immigrants. The troops are of top quality, and are equipped with the latest bolt action rifles, maxim guns, and horse drawn artillery.
10,000 Men
300 points
x6=1,800 points
People’s Republican Army Cavalry Battalion
1,000 Men
120 points
x5=600 points
Like the infantry, the core of the cavalry forces of the People’s Republican Army is made up of sowars from the British Indian Army. The troops are of top quality, and are equipped with the latest bolt action rifles, maxim guns, and horse drawn artillery.
Total Army Points=2,400
Fortresses
100 points: Coastal Fortress at Madras x1=100
100 points: Coastal Fortress at Masulipatnam x1=100
40 points: Land Fortress x5=200
Total points spent in Fortifications= 400 points
EDIT: Played around with some numbers.
Last edited by Cincinnatus on 2006-09-22 06:51pm, edited 5 times in total.
I just want to say: Thanks to everyone for getting this STGOD on a roll.
Please, keep it moving! Do this by posting your OOBs, with nation history, OOBs, and a simple nation map, in the OOB thread. It is on this pag eor the one before... I'll post in it as soon as I make a map myself.
Huzzah!
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - )
One problem with your map, right off the bat, is that the territory you're allowed to take terminates somewhere around Brahmapur. Take a second look at the open slots on the game map; Calcutta belongs to Hindoostan, not you.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
Pablo Sanchez wrote:One problem with your map, right off the bat, is that the territory you're allowed to take terminates somewhere around Brahmapur. Take a second look at the open slots on the game map; Calcutta belongs to Hindoostan, not you.
Whoops. I really fucked that up. I guess I just assumed I got Calcutta, and didn't carefully check to see what my borders should look like. I'll go back and modify my History and OOB to exclude Calcutta, and try and make a new map tonight.
Masulipatnam- One of the first British settlements, Masulipatnam is the Republic’s second major port. With President Greene’s ship building initiative, Masulipatnam has also been transformed into a major shipbuilding center, with steel from Arcot brought in by railway. The aging Dutch built fort of the same name was modernized by the People’s Republic, and now defends the city from any sea based threats.
Nellore- Nellore was a major source of rice for the Republic until a deadly strain of fungus devastated the crop. Farmer’s now grow cotton, which is processed in the textile factories in the city, and opium, which is legal in the People’s Republic. Nellore also converts opium into laudanum for medical purposes.
Poonamallee- Poonamallee, as during British times, is a garrison town for the Army. New recruits are trained here, and most arms used by the People’s Republican Guard are manufactured here as well.
Madras- Madras is the capital of the People’s Republic, and both the President’s mansion as well as the House of Parliament are located here. Madras is also the country’s major port and industrial center. Fort Independence, still referred to as Fort St. George by many of the former colonists, despite it’s renaming by the new government, guards the sea entrances into the city.
Arcot- Recent discoveries of coal deposits have transformed Arcot from a textile center to a major mining and smelting town. Arcot has turned into a major railway destination, as it takes in iron brought in from overseas and ships out steel to other cities.
Cuddalore- The school constructed by the British East India Company is Cuddalore has expanded into the People’s Republic’s first University. Many of the academics who fled from Europe settled here, and together with grants form the new government, created the University of Cuddalore. Topics taught span from the liberal arts to the sciences, and students are accepted from across the Indian Ocean. Progressive values, such as internationalism and human rights, are stressed here, and it is a major cornerstone of the Modernist plan to spread the nation’s political ideals across the world.
Tranquebar- Tranquebar is the main grower of saffron in the People’s Republic. Incredibly expensive, this spice is sold both inside the nation and to other parties across the Indian Ocean. Because of this wealth, Tranquebar has grown far past its humble beginnings as a Dutch missionary town, and is now one of the richest cities in the Republic.
***********************
Not only does this map show my correct borders (I'm pretty sure), but also looks much nicer too now that I know how to “zoom in” in Paint. Please point any other boneheaded mistakes I've made out.
EDIT: Colorized it to make it less ugly.
Last edited by Cincinnatus on 2006-09-23 02:45am, edited 1 time in total.
My map continues to be delayed due to endless fucking annoyances at home and the fact I'm dysgraphic. If anyone would like to do the huge favour of doing one, that'd be great, otherwise, it'll be a while still.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:My map continues to be delayed due to endless fucking annoyances at home and the fact I'm dysgraphic. If anyone would like to do the huge favour of doing one, that'd be great, otherwise, it'll be a while still.
No Worries, I can whip up an out linie using illustrator and GoogleEarth. Should have it done by tommarow Nit.
EDIT: anyone else who wants a basic outline of their land that they can use to color and fill in let me know. I do love maps
A note for Nit. I can enlarge any area of that current large, general area of Africa if you wish to focus on a part of the cost. Mainly because I couldn't till which exact part you picked.
Crossroads Inc. wrote:A note for Nit. I can enlarge any area of that current large, general area of Africa if you wish to focus on a part of the cost. Mainly because I couldn't till which exact part you picked.
Nitram eventually decided he wanted Zanzibar and the coasts of modern day Tanzania and Kenya, so from about 137,399 to 169,230 (pixel grid reference ) on that map you've linked to would be about right. Unfortunately the base image is at a low enough resolution that the Zanzibar group of islands is omitted--they'd still be fairly significant, especially in the strategic sense, so you'd want to include them. I figure that his capital of Luminopolis would be a renaming of Dar es Salaam (by far the largest and most significant city on the coast, then as now).
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
Hiho, Hiho, Its back to GoogleEarth I go!
To get some maps of islands Flat, Hi ho!
Hiho hiho HIHO
EDIT: The descrpancy between Nit's area and the rest of the Africa Coast comes from me having used a much higher resolution image for that part of the COast then the Background image which was taken from my original map, shouls not make a big differance game wise.
Hm, how do get something like that out of GoogleEarth?
Just curious...
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC GALE Force Euro Wimp Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
Step one: Select area of GoogleEarth you want to turn into a map.
Step two: Take Screen Cap.
Step three: Open in a program like Adobe Illustrator and "Trace" the outline of the area making a black and white map.
Scale to your pleasure,
Add color and NAtion stuff using a Paint Program.
Step four: goto bed waaaaay past when you should be...
Turtling would imply I didn't do anything in game offensivley, which I'm sure you remember I did [and let my pugnaciousness and trust get the better of me,] I always viewed the Monacoran Army-First doctrine as both a continuation of an off-hand idea I had ages ago (I was probably twelve at the time...), and a decision that because I could never out-compete everyone for space domination, I should just focus quite explicitly on something I could control without contest, while still proving useful.)
