Saruman vs. Count Dooku

[Pcm979]

Using your logic, I can claim:
1. Wormtoungue > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins

Oh reah, I remember that fight. Man that was exciting, seeing the might of Wormtoung square off against the power of Saruman. No, wait a second. Wormtound gign't fight Saruman in Open Combat, unlike all the cases I mensioned!

Like when the Balrog fought those 1000+ Goblins? You must have either a very selective memory or a rather strange copy of FotR.

2. Gollum > Sauron > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins

Yeah, I remember the time Gollum unleashed his King-fu powers on . . . no wait, Gollum never fought Sauron, did he?

Erm... And your point is?

And anyway,
1000+ Goblins > Gandalf the Grey
a pack of Wolves > Gandalf the Grey

As I mensioned above, this was Gandalf when he couldn't use his magic. In case you forgot, a wizard without his magic is not the most durable thing in the world.

So, Gandalf can't use his magic when the future of Middle-Earth could hinge upon it?

[Howedar]

Dooku is not a Maiar, therefore Saruman cannot use his magic. Case closed. Thanks, LOTR fans, for that nice tidbit of info.

[Yogi]

Like when the Balrog fought those 1000+ Goblins? You must have either a very selective memory or a rather strange copy of FotR.

Those 1,000+ Goblins had their prey within their grasp, yet they all ran their asses away when they heard the Balrog approach. That doesn't sound like a foe that would trouble the Balrog.

Erm... And your point is?

whenever I said X > Y, it was when X was clearly superior to Y in open combat. However, this is not the case with Gollum and Sauron.

So, Gandalf can't use his magic when the future of Middle-Earth could hinge upon it?

Pretty much. Only against other "supernatural beings". He had no problems with using it against Saruman and The Balrog.

Dooku is not a Maiar, therefore Saruman cannot use his magic. Case closed. Thanks, LOTR fans, for that nice tidbit of info.

If you haven't noticed, Saruman hasn't exactly been following his oath too well these days.

[Crown]

If you haven't noticed, Saruman hasn't exactly been following his oath too well these days.

In case you didn't notice Wormtongue kills Saruman. Sorry Dooku all the way.

[Pcm979]

Like when the Balrog fought those 1000+ Goblins? You must have either a very selective memory or a rather strange copy of FotR.

Those 1,000+ Goblins had their prey within their grasp, yet they all ran their asses away when they heard the Balrog approach. That doesn't sound like a foe that would trouble the Balrog.

You stated, and I quote:

Using your logic, I can claim:
1. Wormtoungue > Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog > 1000+ Goblins

Oh reah, I remember that fight. Man that was exciting, seeing the might of Wormtoung square off against the power of Saruman. No, wait a second. Wormtound gign't fight Saruman in Open Combat, unlike all the cases I mensioned!

And anyway, the Goblins didn't run, they parted to let the Balrog through.

Erm... And your point is?

whenever I said X > Y, it was when X was clearly superior to Y in open combat. However, this is not the case with Gollum and Sauron.

Ah. I must have misunderstood. However, the point still stands that Sauron and Saruman's mortal bodies can be quite easily destroyed, and the Balrog was killed by falling onto a mountain. Impressive supernatural beings you've got there.

So, Gandalf can't use his magic when the future of Middle-Earth could hinge upon it?

Pretty much. Only against other "supernatural beings". He had no problems with using it against Saruman and The Balrog.

Let's tally up the Gandalf vs. Balrog fight, shall we?

[G] Shutting spell
Counter-spell
[G] Word of command (both failed)
Made sword made of fire (it broke against Glamdring)
[G] Appearently enchanted Glamdring (breaking Balrog sword)
[G]Destroyed half of the bridge, taking his staff with it.
[G+B]Somehow prevented coming to serious harm from sudden
deceleration
[G+B] *unknown fighting*
[G] Clutched at the Balrog's heel
[G+B] *unknown fighting, appearently involving a lot of flashes and bangs*
[G] Threw the Balrog off of Durin's tower

[NecronLord]

As opposed to hearing about how "weak" saruman is I want to hear about how strong Dooku is?

I'd also like to know how force lighning differs from
"*unknown fighting, appearently involving a lot of flashes and bangs*"

[Yogi]

And anyway, the Goblins didn't run, they parted to let the Balrog through.

I guess it's a diffrence in interpretation.

Ah. I must have misunderstood. However, the point still stands that Sauron and Saruman's mortal bodies can be quite easily destroyed, and the Balrog was killed by falling onto a mountain. Impressive supernatural beings you've got there.

You take Count Dooku and toss him off a cliff/shove a dagger in his spine and he's nice and dead as well.

Let's tally up the Gandalf vs. Balrog fight, shall we?

[G] Shutting spell
Counter-spell
[G] Word of command (both failed)
Made sword made of fire (it broke against Glamdring)
[G] Appearently enchanted Glamdring (breaking Balrog sword)
[G]Destroyed half of the bridge, taking his staff with it.
[G+B]Somehow prevented coming to serious harm from sudden
deceleration
[G+B] *unknown fighting*
[G] Clutched at the Balrog's heel
[G+B] *unknown fighting, appearently involving a lot of flashes and bangs*
[G] Threw the Balrog off of Durin's tower

The "Unknown Fighting" part was days of running combat through the bowles of Moria. When Gandalf smashed the Balrog down, he smashed the mountainside when he fell. Of course he could havejust been REALLY heavy.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I was watching commentary on FotR today, and from what I gather, it seems that, while the wizards are immortal, their physical forms can be killed permanantly, in which case they cannot interact with the physical plane until they have another physical form. As to how and when it is decided when a wizard gets another physical form, that's another question raised that probably doesn't have an answer.

[Pcm979]

And anyway, the Goblins didn't run, they parted to let the Balrog through.

I guess it's a diffrence in interpretation.

I see what you mean.

Ah. I must have misunderstood. However, the point still stands that Sauron and Saruman's mortal bodies can be quite easily destroyed, and the Balrog was killed by falling onto a mountain. Impressive supernatural beings you've got there.

You take Count Dooku and toss him off a cliff/shove a dagger in his spine and he's nice and dead as well.

I'm not trying to prove that Dooku could win, I just think that you're overrating Gandalf and Saruman.

Let's tally up the Gandalf vs. Balrog fight, shall we?

[G] Shutting spell
Counter-spell
[G] Word of command (both failed)
Made sword made of fire (it broke against Glamdring)
[G] Appearently enchanted Glamdring (breaking Balrog sword)
[G]Destroyed half of the bridge, taking his staff with it.
[G+B]Somehow prevented coming to serious harm from sudden
deceleration
[G+B] *unknown fighting*
[G] Clutched at the Balrog's heel
[G+B] *unknown fighting, appearently involving a lot of flashes and bangs*
[G] Threw the Balrog off of Durin's tower

The "Unknown Fighting" part was days of running combat through the bowles of Moria. When Gandalf smashed the Balrog down, he smashed the mountainside when he fell. Of course he could havejust been REALLY heavy.

[G] Shutting spell
Counter-spell
[G] Word of command (failed)
Made sword made of fire (it broke against Glamdring)
[G] Appearently enchanted Glamdring (breaking Balrog sword)
[G]Destroyed half of the bridge, taking his staff with it.
[G+B]Somehow prevented coming to serious harm from sudden deceleration
[G+B] Days of running combat, unknown details.
[G] Clutched at the Balrog's heel
[G+B] *unknown fighting, appearently involving a lot of flashes and bangs*
[G] Threw the Balrog off of Durin's tower, causing damage to part of the mountainside.
Howzat?

As opposed to hearing about how "weak" saruman is I want to hear about how strong Dooku is?

If this is directed at me, I'm not proving Dooku stronger; I just think that the "supernatural beings" are being overrated.

I'd also like to know how force lighning differs from
"*unknown fighting, appearently involving a lot of flashes and bangs*"

So would I. But we have no proper details about the unknown fighting, or else it wouldn't be unknown, would it?

[kojikun]

Pcm979 wrote:
And anyway, the Goblins didn't run, they parted to let the Balrog through.
I guess it's a diffrence in interpretation.

About as different as a full retreat in the heat of combat is when compared to getting out of the way of a rather large dangerous thing which apparently isn't coming for you. (dont mind me, just arguing the situational stuff, never actually read this stuff)

[Straha]

Am I the only one seeing the Obvious outcome here?

Saruman(sp?) and Dooku both square up against each other, see they are exactly a like, and realise that by killing each other they would kill Christopher Lee, and thus themselves. Therefore they go off and over-power there individual over lords and walk away happy and free.

[Pcm979]

Pcm979 wrote:
And anyway, the Goblins didn't run, they parted to let the Balrog through.
I guess it's a diffrence in interpretation.

About as different as a full retreat in the heat of combat is when compared to getting out of the way of a rather large dangerous thing which apparently isn't coming for you. (dont mind me, just arguing the situational stuff, never actually read this stuff)

The actuall quote is:

Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the trolls that filled the Elf with terror. The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something came up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in and go before it.

I interperated that to mean that they parted to let him through.

[DPDarkPrimus]

They sure as hell would be letting him through if they were retreating.

[Darth Wong]

1) If Gandalf is near-godlike, why did he flee from Orcs?

He was trying to save the rest of them...

Doesn't explain it. If he could have struck down all of the orcs, he could have saved them without needing a big and scary (but ultimately not as scary as he looks) Balrog to save his ass.

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?

Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.

WTF? A few dozen walking trees are not anywhere near as dangerous as tens of thousands of heavily armed clones with armour, artillery, and air support. Those same trees would have been reduced to kindling in about 5 seconds by the clonetroopers, with small-arms fire alone.

[Sea Skimmer]

Gandalf's order is not allowed to use their power to intervene directly in the affairs of Middle Earth. They may only use it against there own kind. That' why he carries a sword.

[Pcm979]

Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.

WTF? A few dozen walking trees are not anywhere near as dangerous as tens of thousands of heavily armed clones with armour, artillery, and air support. Those same trees would have been reduced to kindling in about 5 seconds by the clonetroopers, with small-arms fire alone.

Not even mentioning that he wasn't trying to stop them. After all, he deliberately orcestrated the battle, didn't he?

[Robert Treder]

Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.

WTF? A few dozen walking trees are not anywhere near as dangerous as tens of thousands of heavily armed clones with armour, artillery, and air support. Those same trees would have been reduced to kindling in about 5 seconds by the clonetroopers, with small-arms fire alone.

And not to say that he could have stopped the clone army (he couldn't), but remember that Dooku did want the clones to win, so the problem here is sort of irrelevant.

[Robert Treder]

You beat me to it, Pcm979. Curses!

[NecronLord]

2) If Saruman is near-godlike, why couldn't he stop a bunch of walking trees?

Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.

WTF? A few dozen walking trees are not anywhere near as dangerous as tens of thousands of heavily armed clones with armour, artillery, and air support. Those same trees would have been reduced to kindling in about 5 seconds by the clonetroopers, with small-arms fire alone.

Actually as I recall it was hundreds or even thousands. They were scaled down in the film. And that is hardly an excuse. Dooku had the army of the trade federation on his side.

[Pcm979]

You beat me to it, Pcm979. Curses!

He he.

[Darth Wong]

Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.

WTF? A few dozen walking trees are not anywhere near as dangerous as tens of thousands of heavily armed clones with armour, artillery, and air support. Those same trees would have been reduced to kindling in about 5 seconds by the clonetroopers, with small-arms fire alone.

Actually as I recall it was hundreds or even thousands. They were scaled down in the film. And that is hardly an excuse. Dooku had the army of the trade federation on his side.

An "excuse?" What excuse does Dooku need to lose to an army that would effortlessly wipe the floor with all of the combined armies of Middle Earth? Are you serious?

He lost to a bunch of lumbering TREES. Honestly, a single clonetrooper with an E-Web would have annihilated the Ent charge by himself, even if there really WERE hundreds or thousands of them. There is simply no comparison. Saruman may have neat magic spells, but he's a wizard in the Merlin sense, not the godlike D&D sense. He can be felled by mortal weapons such as knives and spears, never mind the over-powered weaponry of the clonetroopers.

[NecronLord]

WTF? A few dozen walking trees are not anywhere near as dangerous as tens of thousands of heavily armed clones with armour, artillery, and air support. Those same trees would have been reduced to kindling in about 5 seconds by the clonetroopers, with small-arms fire alone.

Actually as I recall it was hundreds or even thousands. They were scaled down in the film. And that is hardly an excuse. Dooku had the army of the trade federation on his side.

An "excuse?" What excuse does Dooku need to lose to an army that would effortlessly wipe the floor with all of the combined armies of Middle Earth? Are you serious?

He lost to a bunch of lumbering TREES. Honestly, a single clonetrooper with an E-Web would have annihilated the Ent charge by himself, even if there really WERE hundreds or thousands of them. There is simply no comparison. Saruman may have neat magic spells, but he's a wizard in the Merlin sense, not the godlike D&D sense. He can be felled by mortal weapons such as knives and spears, never mind the over-powered weaponry of the clonetroopers.

Yes but this is not clones vs saruman nor is it clones vs ents. In the same situation (Read, on his own with a few useless orcs) I doubt dooku would fare any batter.

For reference the clones would loose horribly against ents if they were at the equivalent tech level, and in the same numbers as the orcs were.

[Yogi]

An "excuse?" What excuse does Dooku need to lose to an army that would effortlessly wipe the floor with all of the combined armies of Middle Earth? Are you serious?

Actually, that is ab it of a moot point. If I interpreted the movie correctly, he was SUPPOSED to loose as part of Palpatine's Evil Plot.

[white_rabbit]

Honestly, a single clonetrooper with an E-Web would have annihilated the Ent charge by himself, even if there really WERE hundreds or thousands of them.

Um, sounds a little like an over estimation of an E-web to me...

[Durandal]

Why couldn't dooku stop a bunch of clones? Numbers.

WTF? A few dozen walking trees are not anywhere near as dangerous as tens of thousands of heavily armed clones with armour, artillery, and air support. Those same trees would have been reduced to kindling in about 5 seconds by the clonetroopers, with small-arms fire alone.

And not to say that he could have stopped the clone army (he couldn't), but remember that Dooku did want the clones to win, so the problem here is sort of irrelevant.

Why would he have cared who won? He just wanted a war to start, and that would have happened regardless of the outcome.