Discussion of proposed new arguments

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-09-23 02:15am

Argument database wrote:This is particularly important since blasters are known to spray shrapnel from the impact point (this phenomenon actually killed an Imperial officer in ANH when a shot hit the wall behind him).

I'm sorry, but this isn't exactly what happened. The officer who ran down the cell block was hit by a shot fired from Luke's blaster (causing a bright flash) before the wall behind the officer was hit (it's clearly visible when going frame by frame after Luke yells "Look out").

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-09-23 02:16am

Vympel wrote:Never mind these two Stormtrooper chaps: Stormtrooper suits can be sealed. Highest Canon.

I'm sure Robert will get back to you just as soon as he finds that footage of the chin guns firing on the AT-AT, Vymp!

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-23 03:19am

Mange wrote: I'm sorry, but this isn't exactly what happened. The officer who ran down the cell block was hit by a shot fired from Luke's blaster (causing a bright flash) before the wall behind the officer was hit (it's clearly visible when going frame by frame after Luke yells "Look out").

Yes, that's true. He wasn't killed by the near-miss to his side, there was a bolt that struck him frames before. It's hard to see without running it frame by frame.

I'm sure Robert will get back to you just as soon as he finds that footage of the chin guns firing on the AT-AT, Vymp!

I'm sure he's thoroughly examined the Battle of Hoth and come to the conclusion that the entire thing was, in fact, an evil rabid Warsie hoax.

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2006-09-23 03:42am

I'm sure Robert will get back to you just as soon as he finds that footage of the chin guns firing on the AT-AT, Vymp!

:lol: I'm sure he's thoroughly examined the Battle of Hoth and come to the conclusion that the entire thing was, in fact, an evil rabid Warsie hoax.[/quote]

I think He's come to the conclusion that Star Wars, nay reality, is a warsie hoax.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-09-23 07:36pm

Elheru Aran wrote:One presumes there may be a cooling system within the suit's black body-weave, which could tie in with that panel on their back plate. It's not beyond SW technology, certainly, and in fact could add some extra strength to the body-glove.

They'd almost certainly have to have one for Tattooinw. And shocktroopers (the red-armored ones from ROTS) HAD to have had one to go walking about on Mustafar (volcanic temperatures and the toxic atmosphere.)

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-09-23 07:41pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Vympel wrote:Never mind these two Stormtrooper chaps: Stormtrooper suits can be sealed. Highest Canon.
I'm sure Robert will get back to you just as soon as he finds that footage of the chin guns firing on the AT-AT, Vymp!

Details of this smackdown?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-23 09:46pm

Ender wrote: Details of this smackdown?

It was on one of the now defunct versus boards, either Darkstar's one or strek-v-swars, where Darkstar was flogging his usual "SW weapons don't have power settings" bullshit. When someone brought up "Target, Maximum Firepower" he argued that all this meant was the AT-AT using it's chin guns, because he couldn't remember the AT-ATs using them at any other point in the battle.

Screenshots were then posted of the chin gun use throughout. He said he would "investigate the issue himself and get back to us" because he didn't trust the screenshots posted as Warsies were dishonest. (the implication therefore being that we had someone doctored the visual effects showing their chin guns firing,

)

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-09-24 03:01am

What a total bunch of crap. And:

We clearly see asteroids being shattered, with little or no vaporization or melting observed

Clearly he has never seen TESB or AOTC.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-09-24 04:29am

Vympel wrote:One thing I don't understand, is why these whingers even bother saying "well, that was never demonstrated in the movies" when they're all having a good girly cry about how awful the big meanie ICS is.

It's like saying, "Well, I saw a car commercial where the car barely went past 40mph, so there's no canon evidence it can go 100mph."

No wait, scratch that, I do understand- they're too fucking stupid to understand that lower limits are just that, and think that when Dr. Saxton puts pen to paper, he must be contractually restricted to lower limits rather than realistic estimates that take into account things like the difference between an energy beam and a centrally buried explosive.

Dicenso will never get it. He's regurgitating Darkstar's bullshit like its been spoon-fed to him.

Mange wrote:What a total bunch of crap. And:
We clearly see asteroids being shattered, with little or no vaporization or melting observed
Clearly he has never seen TESB or AOTC.

Again, he's just apeing Darkstar. Look here:

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/hate/idiot.html

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/hate/ ... #asterhole

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2006-09-24 05:20am

Some thing to add to the Slave 1 argument.

The guns Boba fired at Obi-Wan on the platform, are not the same guns used in the asteroid belt.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-24 05:23am

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:Some thing to add to the Slave 1 argument.

The guns Boba fired at Obi-Wan on the platform, are not the same guns used in the asteroid belt.

The argument doesn't imply they're the same, so personally I don't think it's necessary.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-09-24 05:55am

Vympel wrote:
KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:Some thing to add to the Slave 1 argument.

The guns Boba fired at Obi-Wan on the platform, are not the same guns used in the asteroid belt.
The argument doesn't imply they're the same, so personally I don't think it's necessary.

Well, the quote Lord Poe supplied seems to indicate that they're referring to the blasters rather than the laser cannons.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-24 08:49am

I had thought this debate long since over.
I guess I underestimated the sheer stupidity and fanatacism of some people.
Why are these guys who claim to be fans of a show dealing in peaceful exploration so unable to accept that another sci-fi universe could smash them? It's like me as a Star Wars fan ranting on about the weakness of the Culture.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-09-24 10:26am

Cao Cao wrote:I had thought this debate long since over.
I guess I underestimated the sheer stupidity and fanatacism of some people.
Why are these guys who claim to be fans of a show dealing in peaceful exploration so unable to accept that another sci-fi universe could smash them? It's like me as a Star Wars fan ranting on about the weakness of the Culture.

The internet is where all the weirdos, crazies, and dumbasses can carry on indefinately, long after they would have been publically humiliated and forced to shut the fuck up in a real life. That's what happens when you have anonymity (or at least a lack of face-to-face contact), forum rules designed for "civility" and not honesty, or the freedom to make your own forum/site with its own bullshit rules.

It also seems like there are a lot of people out there who never bothered reading SD.net, or noobs who are ignorant of the fact that they're entering a debate that has been dead for years. Seriously, going to some retarded forum like GameFaqs (where the vs. or canon debates pop up from time to time) is like stepping into a time machine and going back to 1999. You STILL see long-refuted bullshit like "SW lasers won't even penetrate the navigational deflectors." Go to the Wikipedia articles about "Star Wars canon" or "Star Wars vs. Star Trek," and you'll still find people trying to pimp Darkstar's site in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia article (and please, help out on these articles if you can). And even if some of these people start out as newbies, they soon become stubborn, WoI using retards like Darkstar and his friends. Why? Because they choose not to listen to evidence, and the rules of the site/forum are designed so that they can carry on with their childish crap.

I don't get why these people want to support the clear loser either. If I were to guess, it's a combination of fanboy tribalism (there's no way SW is better than ST!), or an inability to admit they're ever wrong (like Karen Traviss). They never stop to actually think critically about things, because their mind has been made up from the start.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-24 08:03pm

Cao Cao wrote:I had thought this debate long since over.

It will never be over to the truly fanatical.

I guess I underestimated the sheer stupidity and fanatacism of some people. Why are these guys who claim to be fans of a show dealing in peaceful exploration so unable to accept that another sci-fi universe could smash them?

Because at least in Scooter's case, its all he has to hope for in life. Many others are ignorant, arrogant teenagers who refuse to admit they are wrong and don't know any better.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-09-24 09:15pm

Stravo wrote:I don't know if it fits in the concept of the arguments page as it stands but the Q as high tech using race instead of godlike being would be near and dear to my heart as I've been involved in a few of those long disastrous threads and the shit that these assholes come up with as evidence is truly vomit inducing.

Forgive me if this is mentioned elsewhere in the thread or forum, but I just recently watched an episode of Voyager, where the crew threaten a Q leader by holding a Q weapon to his head.. in fact they hold a number of Q at gunpoint, and one Q says, they may only be human, but they're using Q weapons. Kind of knocks the wind out of the Q sail in my mind anyway.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-09-24 10:25pm

Argument #26

Where you point out that they claim the meteorite was vaporised when it wasn't... IIRC they actually claim that Kim (and another) EXPECTED it to be vaporised. I think they're basing their firepower on the fact the two expected it to be vaporised, not that it was.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2006-09-24 11:19pm

Not sure if it's been brought up, but I was reading #32 about ST armor being useless against blasters, and I recalled some screenshots taken where their armor suffers direct hits from blaster bolts but arn't penetrated by them (one was during the Endor battle when Han shot a trooper iirc). Perhaps use that as proof that their armor can protect them from energy shots?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-09-25 01:02am

Lord Poe wrote:Ah, the good 'ol days!

Well, if you want an idiot argument section, you couldn't do any worse that Dicenso's idiocy:

+http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ?p=483#483

To be absolutely generous, we can assume vaporization,

L = A * sigma * T^4

All that needs to be said.

I suppose you could be exceptionally generous and call this counter intuitive - at first glance the higher temp of vaporization would make one think that the vapor would glow brighter then fragmented chunks, until you consider the fact that the higher pressure of vaporization is going to disperse the particle rapidly and thus they will have a smaller area, making for a lower luminosity. Fragmenting or melting is going to result in that cloud sticking around and glowing for a far longer time then vaporization, so the speed we see is only consistent with vaporization, specifically vaporization with an excessive amount of energy so that hte resulting overpressure will disperse the cloud.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-09-25 09:01am

Jim Raynor wrote:
Cao Cao wrote:I had thought this debate long since over.
I guess I underestimated the sheer stupidity and fanatacism of some people.
Why are these guys who claim to be fans of a show dealing in peaceful exploration so unable to accept that another sci-fi universe could smash them? It's like me as a Star Wars fan ranting on about the weakness of the Culture.
The internet is where all the weirdos, crazies, and dumbasses can carry on indefinately, long after they would have been publically humiliated and forced to shut the fuck up in a real life. That's what happens when you have anonymity (or at least a lack of face-to-face contact), forum rules designed for "civility" and not honesty, or the freedom to make your own forum/site with its own bullshit rules.

It also seems like there are a lot of people out there who never bothered reading SD.net, or noobs who are ignorant of the fact that they're entering a debate that has been dead for years. Seriously, going to some retarded forum like GameFaqs (where the vs. or canon debates pop up from time to time) is like stepping into a time machine and going back to 1999. You STILL see long-refuted bullshit like "SW lasers won't even penetrate the navigational deflectors." Go to the Wikipedia articles about "Star Wars canon" or "Star Wars vs. Star Trek," and you'll still find people trying to pimp Darkstar's site in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia article (and please, help out on these articles if you can). And even if some of these people start out as newbies, they soon become stubborn, WoI using retards like Darkstar and his friends. Why? Because they choose not to listen to evidence, and the rules of the site/forum are designed so that they can carry on with their childish crap.

I don't get why these people want to support the clear loser either. If I were to guess, it's a combination of fanboy tribalism (there's no way SW is better than ST!), or an inability to admit they're ever wrong (like Karen Traviss). They never stop to actually think critically about things, because their mind has been made up from the start.

I had a look at the Wikipedia article on ST vs SW; very informative about how the pendulum swung from ST to SW inside 5 years, as well as SW's apparent victory being a pyrrhic one and many pro-Trek debaters disengaging from the field. I also wouldn't be surprised if the next installment of either franchise reignites the debate, however briefly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-25 01:13pm

This debate, as unimportant as it is, does highlight a real problem in our society. It's no secret that all of the educated people tend to fall on one side of the debate, and those few educated people who initially fall on the other side (usually through not taking it seriously and doing any research) are easily convinced to switch sides once they're engaged in debate.

Yet this doesn't faze the other side's die-hards at all. How many other issues in society can we identify which demonstrate a similar pattern? Of course there's the evolution vs creation debate, and there's also the gay-rights debate. But the unbridled arrogance of the uneducated is increasingly becoming a serious problem in our society, and this debate is just a minor example of that.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-09-25 01:52pm

Yeah, I would say I was definitely one of those die-hards that fell on that side when I started debating the versus thing but changed when I saw the light.

The arrogance of the uneducated, the more I think about it, the more I see. More than a few situations in F1, for example show this, the so-called 'purists'. I also saw this in a recent abortion debate.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2006-09-25 05:41pm

Ah, found what I was looking for (thanks to Stas Bush)

Examples like that, compared to when we do see ST armor being penetrated, to show their armor can and does stop blasters.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-25 06:40pm

PayBack wrote:Argument #26

Where you point out that they claim the meteorite was vaporised when it wasn't... IIRC they actually claim that Kim (and another) EXPECTED it to be vaporised. I think they're basing their firepower on the fact the two expected it to be vaporised, not that it was.

One crewman said vaporization. One said fragments and even gave a figure of how big the fragments should be. And its been established for forever and a day that 'vaporization' is not used literally on Star Trek.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-09-25 06:42pm

The stormy looks like he got knocked off his feet (likely got a concussion too) by the explosion the blaster bolt made when it got stopped by the armor. The effect appears to be air ionization into a hot high-pressure fireball which promptly did what all hot high-pressure fireballs do.