Company of Heroes

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-09-21 05:28pm

FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

Goddamn it - I thought it was more like a Ground Control 2 dynamic where capture points gave you resources to call in reinforcements... But FUCKING BASE BUILDING?

Seriously. That's just fucking retarded. Why do they spoil what might have otherwise been an awesome game with shitty and irrelevant genre conventions?

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2006-09-21 05:29pm

weemadando wrote:Wait moment - there's fucking BASE BUILDING?

It's pretty minimal, and half of it is shit like bunkers, hedgehogs, dragons' teeth and razorwire. And then about half your units are requisitioned from off-map anyway.

Goddamn it - I thought it was more like a Ground Control 2 dynamic where capture points gave you resources to call in reinforcements... But FUCKING BASE BUILDING?

You do capture points and call in reinforcements.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-21 05:30pm

Dude, it's DAWN OF WAR. Of course there's base building!

I totally broke my save. CoH crashed during a post-level load, and now my campaign file doesn't work. Huzzah!

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-09-21 05:35pm

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:
weemadando wrote:Wait moment - there's fucking BASE BUILDING?
It's pretty minimal, and half of it is shit like bunkers, hedgehogs, dragons' teeth and razorwire. And then about half your units are requisitioned from off-map anyway.

Goddamn it - I thought it was more like a Ground Control 2 dynamic where capture points gave you resources to call in reinforcements... But FUCKING BASE BUILDING?
You do capture points and call in reinforcements.

Main question - do I have to build shit like barracks etc that then have build queues in order to create units?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-21 05:37pm

YES.

EDIT - Not being a Relic fan, can anyone correct my understanding the CoH is Dawn of War? It looks the same, plays the same, but it's WW2 and slightly deadlier. Oh, and it stole the BFME2 'buy magic powers with xp' thing. But it's DoW, right?

Rekkon · Post by **Rekkon** » 2006-09-21 06:43pm

weemadando wrote:FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

Goddamn it - I thought it was more like a Ground Control 2 dynamic where capture points gave you resources to call in reinforcements... But FUCKING BASE BUILDING?

Seriously. That's just fucking retarded. Why do they spoil what might have otherwise been an awesome game with shitty and irrelevant genre conventions?

Easy there spasmatic. Base building is minimal, and really only functions to restrict early game unit access. Your core base is limited to 4-5 buildings with basically no reason to ever make more than one of a given structure. You cannot build them out in the field, if you want to produce (infantry only) closer to the action, you can take over a farmhouse or something and turn it into a forward barracks. Try the demo before you whine. The game is good enough that once you start fighting and maneuvering on the field, it does not matter if your units come from magic boxes on or offmap. After it is established, you can fight your whole war never looking at your base.

Never played Dawn of War, so no help am I.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-21 06:48pm

The base building irks *me* because it's a huge thing preventing the game from attracting non-RTS people. They could have handled it other ways - particularly given the 'sectors' and off-map assets - but it's basically Dune 2 factories spawning guys. But hey, it's DoW, what did anyone expect? I blame all the screenshots taken really close-in: the default view with the UI at the bottom makes it quite clear what sort of game it is.

Yes, it has stereotypically Nazi Germans and broken voice files so Nazis will occasionally respond to orders by crying 'ONE OH ONE'. HUAH!

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2006-09-21 07:29pm

I do agree with the base building complaint to some extent, being an RTT fan myself and considering CoH to be a successor to the Sudden Strike and Blitzkrieg type of games.

EDIT - Not being a Relic fan, can anyone correct my understanding the CoH is Dawn of War? It looks the same, plays the same, but it's WW2 and slightly deadlier. Oh, and it stole the BFME2 'buy magic powers with xp' thing. But it's DoW, right?

CoH has a much greater emphasis on the tactical portion of gameplay, and indeed I would say it's an RTS/RTT hybrid (like the mentioned Ground Control). Unlike DoW, base-building is almost irrelevant save for the most basic of decisions, and CoH has much more involved tactical combat - moving from cover to cover, suppression fire, some logistics, etc.
Greater emphasis on infantry combat, and to a lesser extent, vehicular combat (as opposed to DoW, which essentially devolved into massive nigh-incoherent melees, not that that's necessarily bad). Considerations like rear armor, weapon penetration and blast radius, rate of fire, and firing arcs are very important.
The "command xp" actually dates back at least as far as C&C: Generals.
Yes, the games share some fundamental similarities. Why should this be an issue? C&C: Red Alert and Starcraft also have significant similarities in basic game mechanics, yet no one claims one to be a clone of the other.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-21 07:35pm

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:
EDIT - Not being a Relic fan, can anyone correct my understanding the CoH is Dawn of War? It looks the same, plays the same, but it's WW2 and slightly deadlier. Oh, and it stole the BFME2 'buy magic powers with xp' thing. But it's DoW, right?

CoH has a much greater emphasis on the tactical portion of gameplay, and indeed I would say it's an RTS/RTT hybrid (like the mentioned Ground Control). Unlike DoW, base-building is almost irrelevant save for the most basic of decisions, and CoH has much more involved tactical combat - moving from cover to cover, suppression fire, some logistics, etc.

But surely this is just 'DOW 2'? DoW would SERIOUSLY benefit from all these things. The deadliness and use of cover etc are just doubleplus, and CoH-modded DoW would be a much better game.

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:[*]Greater emphasis on infantry combat, and to a lesser extent, vehicular combat (as opposed to DoW, which essentially devolved into massive nigh-incoherent melees, not that that's necessarily bad). Considerations like rear armor, weapon penetration and blast radius, rate of fire, and firing arcs are very important.

I haven't played many long skirmishes, but you certainly have a point. Most DoW games get to the 'tank spam' stage very quickly, and CoH armour is quite limited by comparison.

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:[*]The "command xp" actually dates back at least as far as C&C: Generals.

I remember that now. I didn't mean it as a bad thing: stealing good ideas is good.

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:[*]Yes, the games share some fundamental similarities. Why should this be an issue? C&C: Red Alert and Starcraft also have significant similarities in basic game mechanics, yet no one claims one to be a clone of the other.[/list]

Again, it's not bad - it's just not how the game was marketed as far as I could see. It's certainly NOT - emphatically NOT - an RTT game. It's a slightly less shallow RTS, it's DoW with suppression and cover. That's not bad, but it's not going to appeal to RTT players beyond eye candy. Base building? LOL!

And I really meant 'like DoW' in the 'they used the same engine', not game mechanics.

However you're right on one count - it has the 'TOTALLY IMMOBILE SINGLEPLAYER AI' from Sudden Strike, where each level is simply chipping away at layered defences manned by an AI who will only counterattack at certain scripted points. Fuck, Sudden Strike was BORING. You could snipe and arty your way through their defences, and they do NOTHING.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2006-09-21 08:27pm

Oh, I certainly agree with you. I would love to see CoH's mechanical improvements in a DoW - the technical bits like Havok and destructible terrain would just be icing on the cake. I am having trouble rationalizing buying Dark Crusade thanks to CoH.

However you're right on one count - it has the 'TOTALLY IMMOBILE SINGLEPLAYER AI' from Sudden Strike, where each level is simply chipping away at layered defences manned by an AI who will only counterattack at certain scripted points. Fuck, Sudden Strike was BORING. You could snipe and arty your way through their defences, and they do NOTHING.

Try the skirmish AI. It's really lame, and spams nothing but 3 different units throughout the entire game.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2006-09-21 09:24pm

Just to put it out there, CoH uses a new engine (named Essence), Dawn of War uses a 'Modified version of the Impossible Creatures engine', though I'll be honest, I've never heard of Impossible Creatures.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-21 09:28pm

Really? Well there goes my idea.

And Impossible Creatures was an RTS with an excellent 'mutant animal' creator and a really shit game to use them in.

BCG, I know what you mean. I'm not really a DoW fan, but I think CoH-ized DoW would be excellent. It'd lack all the lame parts and be less immobile, while looking and playing better. However, I think Relic games still need TO&E-style unit caps, as I've seen discussed on SDN before.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2006-09-22 04:13am

Rekkon wrote:Out of curiosity, what is your opening strategy? I queue up three Pioneer teams, and send my starting one to the farthest point I hope to capture, usually something in the middle. My second team goes for the second farthest point. Third starts the Wehrmacht Quarters. Last team starts capping the points closest to home, usually leaving one for the third team to take after they are done building. The farthest Pioneers start placing field defenses after they cap, depending on the situation, but I almost never use the resources for bunkers or OPs this early. First thing out of the Quarters is a BMW. With it I can win skirmishes against US Engineer teams. It also gives me a scouting tool, and ensures I have one onhand if an enemy sniper appears, which can wreak you early in the game. First 50 munitions is usually spend giving one of the secondary Pioneers a flamethrower. Several times I fought off that first Riflemen unit using one flamethrower, one regular Pioneer and my BMW. After that I adapt as necessary, but the next infantry unit is usually an MG to hold territory, and a PAK second or third, unless I am being attacked enough to know they are not sparing the resources to get tanks or armored cars yet.

I try not to waste too much manpower on engineers starting out, they're useful, but I find that after 2, they go to waste early game. I like sending out my first batch of engineers, and have my second build a barracks. I just feel that the 120 or 140 manpower can be put to better use. Maybe getting a sniper instead of a MG as the axis, or getting another jeep/rifle squad that much sooner.

I play the game worrying with the assumption that my enemy will be rushing for vehicles. AT guns have great range, are amazingly effective against even the heaviest of tanks, and can pluck off infantry when needed. When I go axis I often try to grab stormtroopers early on, 400MP is a lot, but with panzerfausts they own armored cars, they can support AT guns against enemy armor well enough, and you can do LOTS of evil stuff with that camo

As allies, it is just a rush to get out AT guns, and place down tank traps to keep them safe. Early flakpanzers can ruin your day... completely.

Rekkon · Post by **Rekkon** » 2006-09-22 02:23pm

Oh yes, Stormtroopers are evil. My infantry heavy friend uses them and their camo to great effect. In a city he does not use tanks because he rarely needs them. Panzerschrecks (not Panzerfausts) stationed inside buildings are just plain nasty.

As for the multiple Pioneers, I find that it is very important to cap as much as you can as quickly as you can. On a map of any real size, I often build a forward barracks before making any infantry. Flamethrowers can be amazingly effective, and the spare Pioneers come in handy to claim dropped Allied weapons and provide instant repairs when my first Stugs arrive. They also allow me to make extensive use of sandbags, Dragon's Teeth and barbed wire. Against an Allied player only using 2 Engineers as you are doing, I can usually claim one point beyond the center 'row' before their Engineer team arrives. Skillful use can let Pioneers defeat Engineers, but in either event the fight usually takes so long that my BMW arrives to give me an edge. With 2-3 Engineers and the BMW, I can stall the first Riflemen team long enough to establish a forward barracks near the fight, and crank out MG teams. With two MGs leapfrogging forward, and often flanking with the BMW and Flamethrower, I can push Riflemen off whatever ground I choose most of the time. Stugs that have a retreat lane covered by MGs, make short work of Riflemen. A favorite trick is to send in the Flamethrower after the Riflemen are suppressed. I almost never use snipers. They have their uses, but early game they are expensive, and a great risk to use not properly supported; my BMWs have killed enough in that category. Even in retreat the little bikes keep pace with the sniper and mow him down. The feared vehicle rush is why I am often the first Axis player to have a PAK. I love the camo on those things.

Stealing equipment is so nice. Last game I pushed into the Axis base with Shermans. A Croc toasted his Nebelwelfer crews, letting my Engineers claim them, which then they used to bombard the other Axis player's Flak 88. After that crew died, my Riflemen manned it to shell the other base.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2006-09-23 06:44am

Urk. File header damaged. 2 gig wasted for nothing

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2006-09-23 07:38am

The demo sucks. It crashes when loading the tutorial. I'm not going to buy a game if they can't get their fucking demo to even function.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2006-09-23 07:45am

Rekkon wrote:Stealing equipment is so nice. Last game I pushed into the Axis base with Shermans. A Croc toasted his Nebelwelfer crews, letting my Engineers claim them, which then they used to bombard the other Axis player's Flak 88. After that crew died, my Riflemen manned it to shell the other base.

Stealing equipment and using airdrops for cheap heavy weapons teams are both awesome. It takes 240-310 points to get a standard heavy weapon team, but it takes 3 Riflemen to man a weapon. Kill the crew, man the weapon, then reinforce the Riflemen from a halftrack or at the foward HQ for a mere 66 points. For added benefit, keep a medic post near your front lines, so that if you lose enough guys, hey, free rifleman squad! Even if your crews get taken out, so long as the weapon survives, it can be manned again! Just be sure to have some engineers repair those AT guns. I love mortars, perhaps more than I should, because you can use them to bombard a crew of AT or MGs with near total impunity.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2006-09-23 09:05am

Downloaded the demo, and thought I'd be a bit cheap by setting up my defences to cover the enemy off-map spawn points in the second campaign mission. Anticipating a light-show, I sit back and watch the first wave get slaughtered, (increased weapon effectiveness is surprisingly refreshing after playing Dawn of War for so long) not realising there were multiple spawning areas. The level actually became awesome when Stugs and grenadiers were coming from every direction and attacking whilst I tried to pull back to the other side of the bridges, having decided that maybe my first defensive plan wasn't that great.

One disappointment I have (though it's not a major one) is the base-building. The game already lets you call in ground reinforcements from the edge of the map as a special ability, so it couldn't be that hard to replace the current requisitioning system with that.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2006-09-23 02:54pm

Hotfoot wrote:For added benefit, keep a medic post near your front lines, so that if you lose enough guys, hey, free rifleman squad!

I played a 4v4 of Route N13 recently, and holy crap did my medics pay off. I had secured the central church as a forward barracks and had some meaty defense on it (as Blitz, oddly enough. I guess I just love Stormtroopers too much). They kept taking the center VP and attacking the church, with skirmishes going back and forth throughout the game. The end result was no less than seven Grenadier squads for me, and when my ally built another med bunker nearby, he had several squads as well by the end.

As I almost never actually build Grenadiers (Volks with MP40s are more useful, IMO, and Stormtroopers often pick up the slack), I found this rather nice and it balanced out my force quite well. Giving them a good mix of MG42s and Panzerschrecks made for even more formidable defense and ultimately a nigh-unstoppable assault force.

Rekkon · Post by **Rekkon** » 2006-09-23 11:11pm

Rogue 9 wrote:The demo sucks. It crashes when loading the tutorial. I'm not going to buy a game if they can't get their fucking demo to even function.

Ya, given all these other people playing it just fine, it could not possibly be your download or computer.

I retract and/or soften most of my comments on the Panzer IV. My friend and I had a round on the River Valley map that stalemated early at the bridges. We built up and launched a massive coordinated attack after shelling them for a while. Went well initially, but it lost momentum and pretty much everything died. They took advantage to counter attack, but we did the same thing to them. As we counter-counter attacked, I had to build my forces from scratch again and resorted to Panzer IVs. During the stalemate, I had upgraded tanks to Elite and using the Panzers let me construct an armor force quickly, plus compete numerically with their Shermans. During the second push my friend snuck camoed Stormtroopers into one of the bases, so I could hit it with a V1, which I think finally broke them.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2006-09-24 09:26pm

I'm enjoying this game immensely.

Think we should set up a game coordination thread?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-24 09:29pm

Well, are real players better than the skirmish AI? They're damn right, that AI is quite worthless, even for RTS lamers like me.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-24 09:31pm

I for one am sick to death of WW2 games. Penny-arcade said it best- the next step is the ultimate WW2 game: In the Company of Heroic Bands of Men Answering the Call of Duty, Who Are Also Brothers.

The genre is getting fucking stale. Let it die for a few years.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-24 09:33pm

PA fails again: The aforementioned Band of Brothers would need to be holders of the Medal of Honour. And probably elite rangers as well.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-24 09:57pm

Stark wrote:PA fails again: The aforementioned Band of Brothers would need to be holders of the Medal of Honour. And probably elite rangers as well.

I was paraphrasing their comic, so they may well have had a MoH reference in there as well- I'll amend it:

In the Company of Heroic Bands of Men Answering the Call of Duty, Who Are Also Brothers Who Won the Medal of Honor.