Electric car breakthrough: 5 minute charge gets 500 miles

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2006-09-25 06:05pm

CNN.com wrote:The Innovation: A ceramic power source for electric cars that could blow away the combustion engine.

The Disrupted: Oil companies and carmakers that don't climb aboard

Forget hybrids and hydrogen-powered vehicles. EEStor, a stealth company in Cedar Park, Texas, is working on an "energy storage" device that could finally give the internal combustion engine a run for its money -- and begin saving us from our oil addiction. "To call it a battery discredits it," says Ian Clifford, the CEO of Toronto-based electric car company Feel Good Cars, which plans to incorporate EEStor's technology in vehicles by 2008.

EEStor's device is not technically a battery because no chemicals are involved. In fact, it contains no hazardous materials whatsoever. Yet it acts like a battery in that it stores electricity. If it works as it's supposed to, it will charge up in five minutes and provide enough energy to drive 500 miles on about $9 worth of electricity. At today's gas prices, covering that distance can cost $60 or more; the EEStor device would power a car for the equivalent of about 45 cents a gallon.

And we mean power a car. "A four-passenger sedan will drive like a Ferrari," Clifford predicts. In contrast, his first electric car, the Zenn, which debuted in August and is powered by a more conventional battery, can't go much faster than a moped and takes hours to charge.

The cost of the engine itself depends on how much energy it can store; an EEStor-powered engine with a range roughly equivalent to that of a gasoline-powered car would cost about $5,200. That's a slight premium over the cost of the gas engine and the other parts the device would replace -- the gas tank, exhaust system, and drivetrain. But getting rid of the need to buy gas should more than make up for the extra cost of an EEStor-powered car.

EEStor is tight-lipped about its device and how it manages to pack such a punch. According to a patent issued in April, the device is made of a ceramic powder coated with aluminum oxide and glass. A bank of these ceramic batteries could be used at "electrical energy stations" where people on the road could charge up.

EEStor is backed by VC firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, and the company's founders are engineers Richard Weir and Carl Nelson. CEO Weir, a former IBM-er, won't comment, but his son, Tom, an EEStor VP, acknowledges, "That is pretty much why we are here today, to compete with the internal combustion engine." He also hints that his engine technology is not just for the small passenger vehicles that Clifford is aiming at, but could easily replace the 300-horsepower brutes in today's SUVs. That would make it appealing to automakers like GM (Charts) and Ford (Charts), who are seeing sales of their gas-guzzling SUVs and pickup trucks begin to tank because of exorbitant fuel prices.

Well, this is certainly promising. Here's hoping it doesn't get swept beneath the rug.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2006-09-25 06:16pm

I hope none of the giant oil companies and such try to bury these people somehow. Though I could see them trying.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2006-09-25 06:17pm

Oh, and personally I'd LOVE to have a car that takes five minutes to charge but can drive like a Ferrari. I don't suppose it'll have the same "VROOM" sound as a combustion engine, but the power regardless would be awesome.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-09-25 06:20pm

Interesting, reminds me of the buckytube based capacitor idea or the superflywheel designs. Hope it takes off.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2006-09-25 06:30pm

Sounds awesome if serious. I hope this technology shows up in portable electronics like laptops soon as well.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2006-09-25 06:59pm

There's still the matter of getting all the electricity into whatever the device is. $9 of electricity is could be anywhere from 80-200kWh of juice depending on how much power costs in your area. Picking 150kWh since that's roughly in the middle means that if you want to charge it up in an hour you better have a 240V 650A outlet, which of course doesn't exist. You'll need commercial/industrial 3-phase power to charge the car in a reasonable amount of time.

Converting to the energy equivalent in gasoline gives about 2.2-5.5 US gallons, assuming that electric motors are roughly 4 times as efficient as gas engines and that works out to 8.8-22 US gallons.

Other notes, it's going to suck for those in cold climates, with an ICE we get free heating from the waste heat of the engine with no energy costs or hits to fuel economy. With any electric car, heating is going to suck a ton of energy, about 2-3 times more than air conditioning IIRC. On the bright side, no waiting for the engine to warm up before getting heat, on the downside, massive hit to charge mileage.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-25 07:51pm

Call me cynical but this sounds too good to be true. I'll believe it when they're mass produced.

Rekkon · Post by **Rekkon** » 2006-09-25 09:42pm

Same thoughts here. Sure be nice, even if I live in one of those cold climate areas.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-09-25 09:49pm

Well, at least there's nothing overtly wrong with there being a car that can aquire a charge good for 500 miles in 5 minutes (unlike the relativity drive), but I doubt you could do it with house current. If they intend for you to "charge up" at a special service station, yeah I could see that. Good luck getting it off the ground, though.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2006-09-25 10:37pm

Wyrm wrote:Well, at least there's nothing overtly wrong with there being a car that can aquire a charge good for 500 miles in 5 minutes (unlike the relativity drive), but I doubt you could do it with house current.

Assuming a lower end estimate of 100kWh for the storage capacity and a 5 minute charge time, that's 12,000V at 100A (arbitrary numbers, anything that works out to 1.2MW is fine), which is 1.2 megawatts.

For comparison purposes, a TTC subway train uses 600V and about 10,000A, about 6 megawatts. To charge the car in 5 minutes takes 1/5 the power of a subway train running at full power. People will literally have to hook up their cars to the 3rd rail to get the claimed 5 minute charge time.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2006-09-25 10:42pm

Sounds like some new design ofsupercapacitor. They're impressive, but (until now I guess), not good enough to power a car alone.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2006-09-26 01:01am

Shinova wrote:Oh, and personally I'd LOVE to have a car that takes five minutes to charge but can drive like a Ferrari. I don't suppose it'll have the same "VROOM" sound as a combustion engine, but the power regardless would be awesome.

Big speakers

Seriously though, I've heard about using capacitors instead of batteries for powering stuff like this, and there doesn't seem to be anything physically wrong with it. The issue is getting it to the average consumer.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-26 01:35am

I wonder if it really does work like a capacitor, ie- if you short the two terminals of a fully charged cap, you get a mini-holocaust in your face.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2006-09-26 02:03am

I was thinking about that before. It could cause some serious problems in an accident. A short might vaporize a section of the car and turn the rest to shrapnel propelled by the expanding gas cloud. It's going to need a super durable method of insulation that won't be wrecked in a crash.

Giant capacitor also means more amusing applications-- how about a man-portable railgun?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2006-09-26 02:12am

Oh, oh, laser rifles!! Mwahahahahahaaaaa........

But I assume the same tech could be applied to other things like planes.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2006-09-26 09:26am

Darth Wong wrote:I wonder if it really does work like a capacitor, ie- if you short the two terminals of a fully charged cap, you get a mini-holocaust in your face.

Anything that charges as fast as the article claims is a capacitor for all effective purposes. I have a beer can sized capacitor that stores around 400J of energy, shorting it out vapourized about 1/4" off the tip of my screwdriver as well as blowing a big chunk out of the shank. Yes I was wearing earplugs and had the sacrificial screwdriver taped to a broomhandle.

Assuming 100kWh for the storage device, that's 360MJ, I don't want to be anywhere near that if it shorts out.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-09-26 11:19am

I'm pretty skeptical of this, but not of the idea itself. Even conventional batteries have gotten to the point where viable electric cars are now possible. The upcoming Tesla Roadster, for instance, can go 250 miles with no recharge, can be recharged in a few hours, and can do 0-60 in 4 seconds. And for those that miss the engine sound of a gas car, the creator pointed out in an interview that it can simply be piped in over the car's speakers.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-09-26 12:21pm

High-energy density, especially with regards to some special chemicals or "pure" electrical charge is bound to be dangerous. A shorted battery is bad enough, but something that can store that much energy in such a compact space? Petroleum is explosive and burns easily, so anyone thinking electric cars will be no more dangerous than the batteries in their mobile has another thing coming. There's always a potential problem.

At least with the superflywheel designs it's impossible to have a nasty explosion from structural compromise given their design.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-26 12:35pm

What's interesting is that none of the articles on the Web about this EEStor company and their ultracapacitor even mention the obvious question of what happens when you short the terminals. They talk about how it's safer because it can't blow up like a battery or leak acid, but they don't mention the fact that capacitors discharge their entire stored energy in a split-second when shorted: no small problem if the energy capacity is sufficient to power a performance automobile.

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2006-09-26 03:49pm

Doesn't it take just a strip of metal or other conductive material across the terminals to discharge a capacitor? I mean, what happens if a car with one of these engines gets into an accident?

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-09-26 03:54pm

Considering how much power even a 12V battery can hold, and the amount of voltage and current it's going to need to pull out of the source, it doesn't much matter whether it lets go all at once or somewhat slower. Shorting the terminals is still going to result in a hell of a boom.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-09-26 04:26pm

The problem is not unsolvable, though, is it? I mean, the gasoline in a car's tank carries enough energy to send metal shrapnel in a wide radius like a bomb, but that never happens. Is there seriously no way to solve this problem?

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2006-09-26 04:59pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:The problem is not unsolvable, though, is it? I mean, the gasoline in a car's tank carries enough energy to send metal shrapnel in a wide radius like a bomb, but that never happens. Is there seriously no way to solve this problem?

Gasoline requires a fairly narrow range of conditions to explode, however. This isn't the case with capacitors. You would need a very sturdy and non-conductive enclosure, and the stronger you make it the more weight you're adding to the vehicle.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-09-26 05:20pm

If you're having power cells or capacitors in your car, then you've got some pretty nasty shit there as if you had petrol still, although as they say, petrol tanks going boom is very rare, but fires still happen.

The only thing you can do is make sure the cells are very well protected and that no idiots work on the cars. Fixing an engine today is really not that hard, bar the electronics, it's the same mechanics as 100 years ago near enough. Messing with something that is linked to such a whopping density of electrical current is just asking for your garage to explode.

Fuel-cells or superflywheels are safer. The technology may not be as preferable though. There's always biofuels.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-09-26 08:53pm

Still, if they put a heavy enclosure that required special tools to open (to prevent do-it-yourselfers from getting themselves killed), it would only be a potential monetary expense and not really a significant safety hazard, correct? The performance loss from an extra 200 or so lbs is significant, but not a dealbreaker, and shouldn't affect buying decisions.