Steam and Steel: AltHist. Victorian STGOD

[Crossroads Inc.]

Changed a few minor details to the map, Reposting it so everyone gets an idea of where they are.

[CaptainChewbacca]

For the purposes of commerce, is it better to trade for resources/luxuries we don't have, or does it matter for the purposes of undertaing trade?

[Crossroads Inc.]

The problem with trying to get a monopoly in trade, is that everyone has 'two' parts of resources to trade.. If you wanted to say, corner the market on Opium, you'd have to convince someone to trade Both the extra, and the opium they would use.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The problem with trying to get a monopoly in trade, is that everyone has 'two' parts of resources to trade.. If you wanted to say, corner the market on Opium, you'd have to convince someone to trade Both the extra, and the opium they would use.

I know, I'm just trying to clarify if I already have a luxury, and am keeping half, if there is any difference between trading for a luxury I don't have versus one I do have.

[Bugsby]

There are two benefits to having luxury goods. One is a boost to the economy. IRL, that economic boost comes primarily from trading the good, not just from having that good. Although of course having another good to sell domestically will help the economy - just not quite as much as international trade would.

The other benefit specified is happiness for your population, which makes them more resistant to rebellion and other discord. I think that would hold whether you are trading the good or not.

In the end, I would think that keeping a luxury good for yourself would boost economy somewhat and happiness a good deal. Although it is up to Thirdfain.

After a bit of reflection, I think that the luxury goods system is flawed, and needs a bit of overhaul - or at least a bit of clarification. But that's a matter for the Rules thread....

[Crossroads Inc.]

New Map finished for STORMBRINGER

[Adrian Laguna]

Hey Chewie, two things:

Germanian Artillery
3000 Men (100 pts). Top of the line equipment and materials.

The upper limit for troop worth established by Thirdfain is 6pts/200men, which reduces to 3/100. Your unit, 100/3000, reduces to 1/30. The problem is that 1/30 > 3/100.

Blitzen Class
Fast Attack Craft Craft
The Blitzen class is a newer style of naval doctrine. A fast and hard-hitting craft it serves in coastal patrols, interdiction, and in naval support.
500 tons
1x 10-pound gun
4x 6-inch guns
2x swivel guns
Speed: 2
Fire: 2
Maneuver: 1

And here I was thinking that my destroyer design with a 105mm (4.1") gun as main armament was pushing it.

Being such an odd design, I used SpringSharp to get a better idea of how the Blitzen works-out. I've managed to make a few variants with the guns you specified and decent speed. Though it seems that your stats should be changed to - S:1, F:3, M:1; unless you want to downscale the armament.

This is the report for the variant I think works best, posted because since I did the work I might as well share it.

Code: Select all

Blitzen, New Germania Fast Attack Craft

Displacement:
	449 t light; 478 t standard; 500 t normal; 518 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
	203.41 ft / 203.41 ft x 24.61 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
	62.00 m / 62.00 m x 7.50 m  x 3.00 m

Armament:
*      4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1890 Model
	  Quick firing guns in deck mounts 
	  on centreline ends, evenly spread
*      2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1890 Model
	  Quick firing guns in deck mounts 
	  on side, all amidships
*      1 - 2.71" / 68.9 mm guns in single mounts, 10.00lbs / 4.54kg shells, 1890 Model
	  Quick firing gun in deck mount 
	  on centreline aft
	Weight of broadside 445 lbs / 202 kg
	Shells per gun, main battery: 75

Armour:
   - Gun armour:	Face (max)	Other gunhouse (avg)	Barbette/hoist (max)
	Main:	0.91" / 23 mm	            -			              -

Machinery:
	Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, 
	Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,225 ihp / 3,898 Kw = 23.00 kts
	Range 1,200nm at 8.00 kts
	Bunker at max displacement = 40 tons (100% coal)
	  Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
	52 - 68

Cost:
	£0.097 million / $0.387 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
	Armament: 56 tons, 11.1 %
	Armour: 11 tons, 2.2 %
	   - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
	   - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
	   - Armament: 11 tons, 2.2 %
	   - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
	   - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
	Machinery: 244 tons, 48.8 %
	Hull, fittings & equipment: 138 tons, 27.7 %
	Fuel, ammunition & stores: 51 tons, 10.2 %
	Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
	Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
	  75 lbs / 34 Kg = 0.7 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
	Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.89
	Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
	Roll period: 7.9 seconds
	Steadiness	- As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
			- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
	Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.98

Hull form characteristics:
	Hull has rise forward of midbreak
	Block coefficient: 0.355
	Length to Beam Ratio: 8.27 : 1
	'Natural speed' for length: 14.26 kts
	Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
	Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
	Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
	Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
	Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
	   - Stem:		9.84 ft / 3.00 m
	   - Forecastle (15 %):	9.84 ft / 3.00 m
	   - Mid (50 %):		9.84 ft / 3.00 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
	   - Quarterdeck (20 %):	6.56 ft / 2.00 m
	   - Stern:		6.56 ft / 2.00 m
	   - Average freeboard:	8.20 ft / 2.50 m
	Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
	Space	- Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 237.7 %
		- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.7 %
	Waterplane Area: 3,037 Square feet or 282 Square metres
	Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 21 %
	Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
	Hull strength (Relative):
		- Cross-sectional: 0.44
		- Longitudinal: 1.67
		- Overall: 0.50
	Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
	Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
	Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
	Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Notes:
The "standard displacement" is what is used when giving the tonnage. "Full load" just means how much it can weigh before it starts to come apart.

SpringSharp allows quickfiring guns in 1890 up to 6.5" caliber. I don't know if Thirdfain wants to agree with the program or set the limit somewhere else (personally, I'd put it at either 4.5" or 5").

With such large shells on a deck mount, the six-inchers are going to have reloading speed problems. I tried to add a hoist, but it's just too much weight.

"Weight of broadside" actually means the combined shell weight of all the guns firing at once, regardless of whether they can all participate in a broadside or not.

The main gun armour listed are gun shields for the 6-inchers, so sharpshooters and near-misses don't take-out the gunners.

It's inevitable that the ship has "delicate, lightweight machinery". It's either that or having trouble overtaking battleships.

Ignore "Caution: Hull subject ot strain in open-sea", this would only be an issue if it were a cruiser or larger ship, it's okay for a light attacker. The only reason the caution is there at all is that the large guns and slowish (for a ship that size, anyway) speed have it a bit confused.

The "poor seaboat" comment makes it sound worse than it really is. Your seakeeping rating is 0.98, that message dissapears if a boat attains a rating of 1.00. It's possible to do it with such a small boat, but you'll have to either give-up your guns or your speed. Really, 0.98 is not bad for a 500-ton ship. Though note that it will still have trouble in heavy weather.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Hey Adrian, since I have a mac and cannot use this program.. For future referance, if theres a ship design I wish to "Try out" can you plug it into your ship maker to see how it would function? I can pay you back with more maps!

[Adrian Laguna]

I suppose I can test a design or two.

As for the payment, IIRC I asked you to make a flag for me.

EDIT - If anyone wants to use SpringSharp (I recommend it, it's fun!), please note that the program for some reason does not count the weight of torpedo tubes. Beowulf suggested that 2.5 tons be added in the miscellaneous weight section per tube.

[Bugsby]

I think Thirdfain said something to this effect before, but as has been the rule in previous STGODs (or at least in the one that I participated in), what is at issue is final functionality, not specific details of armament. That is why Nitram can have ether cannons or what have you: the actual mechanics of an ether cannon shouldn't matter, just the fact that it can blow shit up with a firepower of 7, and thus will have a good chance of sinking anything with a protection of, say 4.

While looking up the specific tonnage of each weapon is certainly interesting, on this model, tonnage is simply a method for measuring the number of points we need to spend on a particular ship and limiting the amount of armament, so that a smaller ship cannot carry a huge gun. No glass cannons.

Also, the size of the weapon becomes largely an academic matter. Now it is, of course, silly to tell us that your 3-firepower torpedo boat destroyer has nuclear ICBMs. But if there are any inconsistancies in the size of the gun on one ship relative to the size of guns on other ships, that shouldn't be a cause for great alarm. If it's got firepower of 7, it hits like a 7.

The array of weapons still does have some impact, though. It lets us know how that firepower is divided up. Does this ship have one or two big cannons, or is it equipped with a whole bunch of smaller ones? Does it feature machine guns for killing crew members and making small holes in the hull, or does it favor cannons intended to break even the largest ships apart? What about torpedos? This is what the armament specs tell us.


Of course, Thirdfain could tell me that I'm wrong and I could look like a bit of an idiot, but I certainly hope that doesn't happen. Because I don't know shit about late 19th century military tech. When I finish my OOB, expect some version of "this ship has guns on it".

[Thirdfain]

Bugsby has the right idea. The mechanics don';t matter; a 250 point, 40 firepower battleship with 6 12-inch guns has the same firepower as a 250 point battleship, 40 firepower battleship with 4 12-inch guns and some extra 6/8/9 inchers.

Also, Luxury goods work as such: simply having lux. goods (traded away or not) adds to your stability. Trading for lux. goods gives you bonus stability and income (possible bonuses to production,) having lux. goods and trading them away adds a possible production advantage. The chance of gaining a production advantage is proportional to the number of players with that resource,.. Ergo having a monopoly will grant a very good chance of a procuction bonus.

[Beowulf]

On the other hand, if one is going to have realistic weaponry, one should make a reasonable attempt at realistic armament. Not sticking 9x 16" guns on a ship, for example (nothing we have is big enough to carry that).

[Thirdfain]

On the other hand, if one is going to have realistic weaponry, one should make a reasonable attempt at realistic armament. Not sticking 9x 16" guns on a ship, for example (nothing we have is big enough to carry that).

There is a DAMN GOOD REASON I posted historical examples of ships of the era; EVERYONE should be looking at them when they design their warships.

[Beowulf]

It's also the reason why I posted a link to SpringSharp earlier. It's used for pretty much precisely this purpose (semi-realistic modelling of ships for wargames).

Another good resource for naval weaponry is http://navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm

[Stormbringer]

Can some one post the info for how we allocate points? And how many we can allocate? I'm afraid I can't find it and I was hoping to do my OOB this afternoon.

[Cincinnatus]

Can some one post the info for how we allocate points? And how many we can allocate? I'm afraid I can't find it and I was hoping to do my OOB this afternoon.

It's all spelled out in this thread.

[Stormbringer]

Nevermind on that.


One thing though, on the monthly allotment is that 10% of what you don't spend or 10% of the 4000?

[Cincinnatus]

Nevermind on that.


One thing though, on the monthly allotment is that 10% of what you don't spend or 10% of the 4000?

10% of your total spent points, which means the first turn you'll have 400 points to spend.

[Stormbringer]

So I have 4000 points to create my initial list.

I then get 400 each month, yes?

[Beowulf]

So I have 4000 points to create my initial list.

I then get 400 each month, yes?

Correct, unless you invest part of the 400/mo, at which point you gain another 25% of what you invested.

[Adrian Laguna]

Bugsby has the right idea. The mechanics don';t matter; a 250 point, 40 firepower battleship with 6 12-inch guns has the same firepower as a 250 point battleship, 40 firepower battleship with 4 12-inch guns and some extra 6/8/9 inchers.

I'm quite aware of that, however, trying to make CaptainChewbacca's design work seemed like a fun and interesting thing to do. The key here is "fun", I wouldn't have done it if I didn't enjoy it. The whole point of STGODs is, after all, recreation. Chewie can feel free to follow my suggestions to either modify the stats or the armament of his Fast Attack Vessel, or leave it as is. I think striving toward a level of realism is a good thing, but if the players don't want to then that's okay with me.

There is a DAMN GOOD REASON I posted historical examples of ships of the era; EVERYONE should be looking at them when they design their warships.

Speaking of historical examples. Turns-out that the German Armoured Cruiser Brandenberg, laid down in 1890, had quick-firing 6-inch guns.

[Thirdfain]

I'm quite aware of that, however, trying to make CaptainChewbacca's design work seemed like a fun and interesting thing to do. The key here is "fun", I wouldn't have done it if I didn't enjoy it. The whole point of STGODs is, after all, recreation. Chewie can feel free to follow my suggestions to either modify the stats or the armament of his Fast Attack Vessel, or leave it as is. I think striving toward a level of realism is a good thing, but if the players don't want to then that's okay with me.

I agree, but any modifications he makes to the specifics are there for fun, and nothing else. I agree we should aim for realism in our fluff; however, it's not a requirement.

PS, I feel that the Fast Attack Craft is a very poor idea- a mini-battlecruiserr without torpedos? A conventional armoured cruiser could eat up a dozen of those little bastards, since it'd only take a handful of hits from a larger gun like a 6-8 incher to sink one of those little fellas.

[Beowulf]

FAC may be good for piracy... Can't think of any other reason to have such a boat. A battleship would barely get dented by it.

You'd only need 1 hit with a 6-8in gun to sink one really.

[Adrian Laguna]

I feel that the Fast Attack Craft is a very poor idea- a mini-battlecruiserr without torpedos? A conventional armoured cruiser could eat up a dozen of those little bastards, since it'd only take a handful of hits from a larger gun like a 6-8 incher to sink one of those little fellas.

At least he's only wasting money on 40 of them. My OOB has 85 little wasps, though mine do have torpedoes.

[Bugsby]

I'm quite aware of that, however, trying to make CaptainChewbacca's design work seemed like a fun and interesting thing to do. The key here is "fun", I wouldn't have done it if I didn't enjoy it. The whole point of STGODs is, after all, recreation. Chewie can feel free to follow my suggestions to either modify the stats or the armament of his Fast Attack Vessel, or leave it as is. I think striving toward a level of realism is a good thing, but if the players don't want to then that's okay with me.

Didn't mean to accuse you of anything there. I was just trying to get a basic point out of the way. Even if it wasn't you, at some point someone will always try to bitch over minutiae; it's best to establish these things before someone starts bitching in the OOC thread during the middle of a battle. It's happened before. It will happen again.

In summary, feel free to bash on Chewbacca. I'm sure that when my OOB goes up, I'll give you plenty of fodder.