Telling your children fighting is bad

[Stravo]

This afternoon some drunken asshole stumbled over a stack of baskets and spilled out into the aisle of the grocery store. My daughter and I were walking by and as they help him up he shouts "That asshole tripped me."

Something in me just snapped and I said "Take a look at those baskets asshole and say that I tripped you again. Just fucking say it."

He gets up, bleary eyed and looking confused and of course beligerent.

"You tripped me asshole and if you don't want me to kick your ass..."

That's all he needed to say.

"Come on, fucker. Right here. I'm not moving pussy."

He stumbles over to me, pulls the ol' pushing his face into mine from fucking high school while bumping me. So I slugged him. Hard.

He stumbles back onto his ass and proceeds to mutter that "I got a knife asshole. I'm gonna stab you."

I saw him stumble and fall and pick his skinny ass up and there were no bulges, no weapons, nothing. And even if there were my next reaction was pure instinct.

"Pull it out cunt, pull it out or get the fuck out of my face pussy."

He makes a move to pull something from his pants and I just smile. Mind you I feel like I'm watching myself from outside my body. It was weird. I haven't had a confrontation like this in a decade I want to say.

"Pull. it. out."

He then fumbles on his belt "I'm gonna call the cops."

"Call them." I challenge immediately.

Then, at that moment I hear my daughter crying and she's tugging on my hand while looking completely terrified.

I snap out of it like cold water got splashed on me and I pull her to me and simply leave his drunk (or high) at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon ass squating on the floor trying to sound brave.

My daughter was nearly inconsolable for 3 city blocks. I managed to calm her down and she said she was afraid he was going to kill me. I assured her nothing like that was going to happen.

I then made the empty platitude. "Fighting is not good, I shouldn't have done that." then immediately followed up "But sometimes you have to stand up for yourself."

She nodded but I can imagine she was a bit confused. Later on as we were on the Subway home she began to say things like "Daddy you're brave and you weren't scared of him. I would have been but you're tough."

Mixed signals indeed.

I don't know if any parents here have ever had a fight/confrontation with someone in front of their kids and I don't mean just yelling at someone, I mean physical altercation. What do you tell your kids? Fighting is bad? What kind of message are you sending when you fight and then proceed to tell your child that fighting is bad? How about kids who have had their parents fight in front of them. Mine never did but I can imagine it can be a terrifying experience if you're 7 or 8.

It also disturbed me that my daughter's existence vanished for me in that minute or so of the fight and she only broke in on my tunnel vision when she started crying. Very strange. I've never experienced that before and frankly feel bad about it. I shouldn't have fought, I shouldn't have been so aggressive with the asshole because she could have been hurt but that all vanished for some reason that I can't explain.

Anyway just thought I'd vent that out since its been bugging me since we walked out of the grocery store.

[Darth Wong]

Sorry Stravo, but that was shitty judgment, no doubt about it. You got into that fight for precisely one reason: pride. Any time you get into a fight, you are risking severe consequences; you had no way of knowing until the fight was already underway whether he really did have a knife or a gun. And even though he had neither, the point remains that you still engaged in a potentially dangerous situation for what? To prove you're a tough guy? To establish your alpha-male credentials? Were you thinking about what's best for your daughter, or what's best for your ego?

I have become far less belligerent in public since I became a father because the safety of my children is my ultimate concern. If I were in that exact same situation with either of my sons present, I would have just walked away. You made two mistakes:

1. Fighting when you could have easily withdrawn.
2. Attempting to justify it after the fact rather than admitting your conduct was just plain stupid.

Both of these mistakes seem like they were driven by pride, and fighting for pride is a game for the young and stupid. And the Bush Administration.

[Admiral Valdemar]

While I wouldn't have tried provoking the guy, I would've alerted the staff and given a piece of my mind before walking off. Having no kids myself, I can't say what I've done, but what I would do in that case, would be summarising it as you did. In this world, violence is a fact of life and won't go away so long as humans remain human. It may not be a good idea to fight all the time, however, there are those times when you have to stand up, else your inaction causes a greater harm to be done.

So long as your daughter realises that outright violence is bad and only to be used as a last option, but also that pure pacifism is equally detrimental to society, then I think she's got the message. It's sad that we have to think about this in the 21st century all the same. Such is life.

[Darth Wong]

While I wouldn't have tried provoking the guy, I would've alerted the staff and given a piece of my mind before walking off. Having no kids myself, I can't say what I've done, but what I would do in that case, would be summarising it as you did. In this world, violence is a fact of life and won't go away so long as humans remain human. It may not be a good idea to fight all the time, however, there are those times when you have to stand up, else your inaction causes a greater harm to be done.

Oh what a steaming pile of bullshit. What "greater harm?" The guy yelling at your back that you tripped him even though you didn't? It's not as if anyone's going to believe the drunken slob anyway. If he chases after you, fine. It's a self-defense situation and you have to fight. But running up to him, getting in his face, and challenging him to a fight because he "dissed" you? That's the behaviour of an alpha-male wannabe idiot, not a man who is nobly fighting for some higher purpose or greater good.

[Aaron]

It also disturbed me that my daughter's existence vanished for me in that minute or so of the fight and she only broke in on my tunnel vision when she started crying. Very strange. I've never experienced that before and frankly feel bad about it. I shouldn't have fought, I shouldn't have been so aggressive with the asshole because she could have been hurt but that all vanished for some reason that I can't explain.

It's called the "flight or fight" reflex. In a dangerous situation your subconscious mind makes a choice whether to fight or to flee, all other concerns are secondary. That's what happened to you.

I find it hard to reconcile telling my kids that we shouldn't fight with my military past. Often I get into situations where my former training screams at me to fight but my desire to set an example for my kids causes confusion as to what to do. So far my kids win out. I also tell my kids they shouldn't fight but I often fell that they should, especially if it's a bully issue at school. My son is only 5 and in Senior Kindergarden but bullying has come up but I tell him to go to the teacher because I don't want him labelled as being violent and a troublemaker. And once that happens I'm sure all help from the school will disappear.

I'm not sure if any of this is any help but I do feel where your coming from.

[General Zod]

I've found that most situations that could escalate into fights can be solved by simply staying calm, and either holding your ground if you're not in any easy position to run or walking away if you can. The vast majority of idiots who want to start fights simply won't keep it up once they see you're not intimidated. Only real times that fighting should be done, imo, is if they don't leave you with any choice and attack you right out, though fortunately I can't say I've ever been in that kind of situation that I wasn't able to avoid it by either reasoning my way out or walking away.

[Rye]

It's weird, I was thinking about jsut this earlier today, and I had that quote from Demolition Man floating around in my head, "Hitting people is not a good thing! Ok, well sometimes it's a good thing, but not when it's just a bunch of people trying to find something to eat!"

I got mixed signals when I was in the playgroup thing kids are usually sent to a year before going to school. The teachers and my parents had both told me that fighting was bad and I shouldn't do it. Then one day, this kid said he'd stab me or something, if I didn't give him the trike I had, then he hit me. And I had no idea what to do. So I just gave him the trike and sat there for a bit on my own.

I told the family this when I got home, and am told by my mum that I was good, my dad seemed undecided, and my grandma said if someone hits me, I should hit them back.

As it stands, I think we should probably teach kids that violence is a part of life and to be prepared for it and be prepared to use it, but to not start it, only defend yourself and your family.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Oh what a steaming pile of bullshit. What "greater harm?" The guy yelling at your back that you tripped him even though you didn't? It's not as if anyone's going to believe the drunken slob anyway. If he chases after you, fine. It's a self-defense situation and you have to fight. But running up to him, getting in his face, and challenging him to a fight because he "dissed" you? That's the behaviour of an alpha-male wannabe idiot, not a man who is nobly fighting for some higher purpose or greater good.

And where did I say Stravo did the right thing, exactly? My comments after saying quite clearly that Stravo did precisely what I wouldn't were on general violence within the world, not in reference to personal attacks, but greater things. Wars have been fought on the principals I mention.

I, personally, can't stand the alpha male bullshit that society has in abundance, heaped on teenage men as if its some sort of badge of honour to openly attack anyone around them for the smallest thing. So please don't accuse me of defending that crap.

[Rye]

As for Stravo's situation, I wouldn't have punched him unless it was clear he was already coming for me. For the sake of pride, I would probably say "As if I did!" when he accused me of tripping him, but I wouldn't pursue it in his face or anything. If he got up and came towards me or my friends, I would keep my cool as long as possible, till it looked like he was going to hit me, then headbutt him.

[Admiral Valdemar]

You can't be too careful with drunks anyway. A colleague at my workplace had his friend nearly killed when a guy bumped into him, having his pint spilt at the bar of some pub. He even paid for the spilt pint and apologised, but the other fucktard got all high and mighty and waited outside for him with a screwdriver in hand. Had it not already been seen before and the cops called, he'd likely have been stabbed.

Factor a kid into the equation and you're dealing with death and fucking up your kid's mind if she sees you get injured (or killed) in front of her.

[Darth Wong]

Oh what a steaming pile of bullshit. What "greater harm?" The guy yelling at your back that you tripped him even though you didn't? It's not as if anyone's going to believe the drunken slob anyway. If he chases after you, fine. It's a self-defense situation and you have to fight. But running up to him, getting in his face, and challenging him to a fight because he "dissed" you? That's the behaviour of an alpha-male wannabe idiot, not a man who is nobly fighting for some higher purpose or greater good.

And where did I say Stravo did the right thing, exactly?

You said that you would have summarized it as he did, but what he said to his daughter was self-justifying and wrong. Yes you fight when it's necessary, but it was absolutely unnecessary in that situation. She got the message that it's bad to fight, but it's also a noble and tough thing to do to get into a fight with a drunk because he insulted you, because "sometimes you have to stand up for yourself". No, I wouldn't have summarized it as he did.

[Stravo]

I just want to be clear that I am not happy of bragging about this incident, I am actually quite embarassed and ashamed about it for the very reasons Mike cited. This was not a fight that had to happen and certainly not in my daughter's presence. There are personal issues going on in my life that have made me inordinately angry of late which fueled this incident I'm sure as well as pride.

But is there an exception to the "no fighting" rules we drill into our kids? SHould we teach them to stand up for themselves if they have to or do we stick to the "no fighting - ever" stance?

[Admiral Valdemar]

You said that you would have summarized it as he did, but what he said to his daughter was self-justifying and wrong. Yes you fight when it's necessary, but it was absolutely unnecessary in that situation. She got the message that it's bad to fight, but it's also a noble and tough thing to do to get into a fight with a drunk because he insulted you, because "sometimes you have to stand up for yourself". No, I wouldn't have summarized it as he did.

Well, to put my post in another light, I would've done what I stated if confronted by that guy (that is no violence), then given a small talk as mentioned if my daughter asked such a question, making sure to emphasize that petty squabbles with village idiots are not a good cause for violence in return. The message would be subtly different to reflect what I didn't do that Stravo did. The time for violence with regards to the greater good, as it were, would be when someone was in immediate danger, and even then, you have to assess what to do on a case-by-case basis. Have-a-go heroes don't always end in a good way.

The justification for this violence in such incidents is simply because if we didn't fight back, those with no regard for us would win society over by force. I always think of Nazism as a key example, but obviously that's not something you'll run into in the middle of a street one night.

As I say, so long as your kids learn that diplomacy is the correct path before all others and that evil people sometimes can only be stopped by violence if the risk from acquiescing is big enough, then they'll get the picture. I think I'd be happier explaining the birds and the bees to kids more than why the species is as it is.

I just want to be clear that I am not happy of bragging about this incident, I am actually quite embarassed and ashamed about it for the very reasons Mike cited. This was not a fight that had to happen and certainly not in my daughter's presence. There are personal issues going on in my life that have made me inordinately angry of late which fueled this incident I'm sure as well as pride.

That would be a mitigating circumstance, though you have to remember, those little bouts of irrationality are usually the last ones you exercise if you pick a fight with someone who goes psycho or has mates.

But is there an exception to the "no fighting" rules we drill into our kids? SHould we teach them to stand up for themselves if they have to or do we stick to the "no fighting - ever" stance?

I don't believe in ramming the idea that all violence is entirely unnecessary. History has shown time and again (not to get all Heinleinian), that violence has been mandatory for people of perfectly noble lifestyles to survive those that couldn't give a shit about who they trampled on. It's hard not to view the world in black and white as a kid, so the exceptions for violence being used are probably more difficult to grasp at that age before high-school. Bullies would be a good topic. There are initiatives they have today teaching kids to stand up and tell a teacher rather than react in kind. Though I know for a fact that many parents still send the message that the only way to deal with bullies, is to kick them in the family jewels (the relevant Simpsons episode ties in nicely with this line of thought).

[Covenant]

A good self defense class should tell you that it's not worth fighting, and it isn't. When someone asks for your wallet, or your keys, or phone or shoes, you really should just give it to 'em. It's not worth getting stabbed or hit with a pipe, especially since you don't always know what's going on with 100 percent clarity--and that's an understatement. So as a general rule, fighting for money is silly, since it's not worth the risk. And asstated, fighting for pride is even less important and less justifiable.

It's a bad message to give your kid, that someone else teasing you means enough that you should get angry and fight. Defending yourself is one thing, but getting angry or flipping out is always an immature response to the problem. Kids should know that fighting isn't an appropriate response to verbal criticism or teasing or hurtful words, since it's not social behavior or a good way to get ahead. Once they're old enough to think about the moral and ethical decisions involved in fighting, they'll be old enough that "Fighting is Bad" has already done it's job of not encouraging apelike displays of dominance behavior. Hitting someone back is different than hitting someone because they called you fat. With your kid there, they should be your first priority, and you have a responsibility not only to protect them and teach them the right stuff, but to act like a responsible adult parent.

As an aside, someone who doesn't even flinch in the face of some drunk's ramblings is also a lot more self-assured and dominant appearing than someone who hits first. You're giving credibility to their threat by justifying an attack. If you're in danger, sure, do what you have to do. But if the only thing is at stake is your college ego, then it's hardly worth looking like a fratboy again to defend it. Save it for more important situations.

[Stark]

Meaningless confrontation is wrong - defence isn't. You shouldn't throw yourself into worthless fights and you shouldn't try to negotiatiate when you should be fighting.

I get threatened by drunks every other day at my lameass pub job. I'd never allow any of those situations to escalate.

[Darth Wong]

I just want to be clear that I am not happy of bragging about this incident, I am actually quite embarassed and ashamed about it for the very reasons Mike cited. This was not a fight that had to happen and certainly not in my daughter's presence. There are personal issues going on in my life that have made me inordinately angry of late which fueled this incident I'm sure as well as pride.

It's always unfortunate when one allows stress to influence one's behaviour; stress can cause all sorts of negative behaviours to boil up in other situations unrelated to the real source of the stress. But I'm sure you realize that this is an explanation, not an excuse. The key is to admit to your daughter that you shouldn't have done that, rather than letting her get the impression that this is how a "real man" conducts himself.

Or, to put it another way, if you had walked away, the people at the grocery store would have gone home and told their friends and wives about this drunk asshole at the store today. Instead, they went home and told their friends and wives about two assholes at the store today.

But is there an exception to the "no fighting" rules we drill into our kids? SHould we teach them to stand up for themselves if they have to or do we stick to the "no fighting - ever" stance?

Defending yourself against imminent attack is a good reason to fight. Anything they do to you with words alone should be responded to, if at all, only with words in return.

[Shroom Man 777]

I can't imagine how it'd feel like for a little kid to hear a guy threaten to stab his/her parent. And the mixed emotions of seeing your parent slug the guy's face off, the fear and the "yay, go dad!" thing.

As Patrick Swayze said in The Road House, be nice.

[Superman]

Yeah, Stravo that's what I would have done back in my wrestling days when I was juiced up. I got into too much shit. I was put into handcuffs more than once, but thankfully never arrested. That was pure luck because I've seen people actually go to jail for doing less. I've also had a gun pulled on me because my dumb ass buddies and I wouldn't leave a strip club after fighting with some bouncers, I found out that a guy I punched onto the floor was carrying a knife and could have stabbed me while coming at him, and lots of other dumb shit. Snapping at a drop of a hat and wanting to fight is really like Russian Roulette: the odds are eventually going to work against you.

I can't say that was a great move to pull in front of your daughter, but I understand it. Sometimes it's hard to control impulses like that. Try to remember that kids internalize the environment in which they are raised, and that kids don't seem to listen to what parents say as much as what they do. It's like when parents smoke, they tell their kids constantly how bad it is, and that they shouldn't do it... but statistically that kid is much more like to do it than the kid not raised in that environment.

Personally, I've become much at walking away from these types of situations. I'm sure some of that is due to medication, but I don't just react like that anymore. A few months ago, I accidentally started gassing up my car with a pump that some hick with a mullet had paid for. When he came out of the store, he yelled "why the fuck are you using my gas?" My first instinct was to tell him what he could go do with himself, and to pummel him into a pulp. I took a few breaths, calmed down a little, and explained it to him that it was a mistake. He realized what was going on, and that I wasn't intimidated by him, and we worked it out. He basically made a complete jack ass out of himself while I looked cool and collected.