Family Programming, Religion, and Insensitive Atheists

Pezzoni · Post by **Pezzoni** » 2006-09-28 09:45am

Stofsk wrote:There was another episode where Lisa was very critical of religion (it was the episode where an 'angel' was dug out of the ground, and it turned out to be fake - planted by a shopping centre company as a cynical publicity stunt)

That one also. I just rewatched the creationism episode, and she takes a rational, scientific viewpoint, but not an atheistic one in particular. I think there is a lack of continuity between the seasons with regards to Lisa's particular beliefs, and I above was focusing solely on the newer episodes.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-28 10:21pm

Lots of non sequiturs here.

Opposing creationism != atheism
Opposing a particular religious belief != atheism
Being skeptical about a particular religious claim != atheism
Wanting to explore other religions != atheism

All of those things are actually quite common among what we would normally refer to as Christian "moderates". If anyone has any REAL evidence that Lisa Simpson is an atheist, let me know.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-09-28 10:44pm

I'm guessing that the only way to show a happy, non-obnoxious atheist would to have a show/episode cenetered around that person's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and how they cause friction with fundamentalist associates. Otherwise, there's no way for the person to show their atheism without being construed as a pushy prick. Atheists don't engage in universally known activities like going to church or whatever.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-28 10:48pm

wolveraptor wrote:I'm guessing that the only way to show a happy, non-obnoxious atheist would to have a show/episode cenetered around that person's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and how they cause friction with fundamentalist associates. Otherwise, there's no way for the person to show their atheism without being construed as a pushy prick. Atheists don't engage in universally known activities like going to church or whatever.

Given the number of TV episodes of various shows in which religion is at least mentioned in the story, I doubt it would be all that hard to have an atheist in the picture who simply says "No thanks, I'm an atheist". The fact is that atheists are more distrusted in American society than Muslims, because they are considered to be freaks, or aliens, or psychopaths.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-09-28 11:14pm

Stofsk wrote:That's right, she outright says to Homer in an early-season episode "Homer please, don't make me choose between my husband and my god because you'll always lose."

Amusingly enough, when Lisa's cats kept dying in freak accidents, Marge informed God that she'd stop donating to the church or some such other if he didn't stop killing the cats. When Lisa questioned the practicality of threatening of God, Marge responded, "It's the only way to deal with bullies, Lisa."

Cincinnatus · Post by **Cincinnatus** » 2006-09-29 12:56am

Pezzoni wrote: Dr Cameron is also stated to be an atheist, but again, she carries a 'damaged' label, and doesn't appear to be truly happy.

I don't think anybody is really happy in House. All the characters are damaged in some way.

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2006-09-30 12:45pm

In Serenity, Mal starts out an atheist and, after undergoing a minor epiphany in his beliefs, ends up... still an atheist. And a fairly content one, too; he has a dangerous and uncertain life, but he has good people to share it with.

I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren't I?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-09-30 04:43pm

Last time I checked, Lisa Simpson was describing herself as a Buddhist.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-09-30 06:35pm

sketerpot wrote:In Serenity, Mal starts out an atheist and, after undergoing a minor epiphany in his beliefs, ends up... still an atheist. And a fairly content one, too; he has a dangerous and uncertain life, but he has good people to share it with.

I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren't I?

Again, that's really like my example with House. He's an atheist with good intentions, true. He's not exactly the shining beacon of our kind, though. Especially when he can be quite confrontational in his attitude and have the same pomposity of House (although not as well deserved in this instance).

It's also not really family viewing. These are shows that are either relegated to cult status or evening viewing by those other than a typical family.

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2006-09-30 07:39pm

Well damn, this is a problem. I can't think of a single TV show or movie, of any type, which shows a non-fucked-up atheist character, and apparently nobody else can either.

Now that I come to think of it, part of my own de-conversion from Christianity was simply the realization that there were ways of looking at the world and living one's life that didn't involve God, it wasn't awful, these weren't awful people, and it didn't feel bleak and amoral. This came mainly from reading science fiction books, a lot of which seem to be written by atheists and agnostics.

Without that sort of thing in the popular culture, how the hell are atheists ever supposed to be considered more than just bitter, arrogant pricks? This isn't a rhetorical question; I'm really looking for some ideas here.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-09-30 08:23pm

sketerpot wrote:Well damn, this is a problem. I can't think of a single TV show or movie, of any type, which shows a non-fucked-up atheist character, and apparently nobody else can either.

You forgot the aforementioned Michael Stivic of All In The Family.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-30 08:30pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
sketerpot wrote:Well damn, this is a problem. I can't think of a single TV show or movie, of any type, which shows a non-fucked-up atheist character, and apparently nobody else can either.
You forgot the aforementioned Michael Stivic of All In The Family.

I don't think too many people are watching that nowadays. The country is arguably more evangelical than it was in the "free love, womens' lib" 1970s. Or to be more precise, it has become more polarized. Pornographers, for example, have greater freedoms today than they did in 1975, thanks largely to a series of lawsuits involving the likes of Larry Flynt. But at the same time, creationism is making dangerous inroads into public education systems and religious dogma is being used as the basis of major policy decisions.

The consistent media portrayal of atheists as bitter, angry, sullen individuals is in keeping with this. In the 1980s family show Family Ties, the father of the house was once asked if he believed in God. He quite diplomatically responded that he believes God is in every person, neither confirming or denying a belief in God. Today, that scene wouldn't happen. The kid would probably ask his father what he believes about God, not whether he believes in God at all.

It has always been a myth that makers of popular fictional movies have a "liberal agenda"; they in fact have a very conservative agenda. One of the most consistent things about mass-market movies is that they promote the general stereotypes of Christian folk basically being good people, and wholesome values emanating magically from rural settings such as cornfields, thus explaining why they are absent in the city. Of course there are smaller films which buck this trend, but they're small for a reason. People don't want to hear it. They want to hear that cornfields grow good wholesome American heterosexual white boys who go to church and are generally decent folk, and that atheists come from the dirty grimy cities where they have lost touch with God, nature, and values.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-09-30 08:42pm

sketerpot wrote:Well damn, this is a problem. I can't think of a single TV show or movie, of any type, which shows a non-fucked-up atheist character, and apparently nobody else can either.

Now that I come to think of it, part of my own de-conversion from Christianity was simply the realization that there were ways of looking at the world and living one's life that didn't involve God, it wasn't awful, these weren't awful people, and it didn't feel bleak and amoral. This came mainly from reading science fiction books, a lot of which seem to be written by atheists and agnostics.

Without that sort of thing in the popular culture, how the hell are atheists ever supposed to be considered more than just bitter, arrogant pricks? This isn't a rhetorical question; I'm really looking for some ideas here.

What about Daniel Jackson in SG-1? I don't think they've ever stated his religious preference, but from his dealings with SG-1 and offworld missions, it's pretty clear he simply isn't very big on the whole god thing and frequently works on debunking imposters.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-09-30 09:03pm

General Zod wrote:
What about Daniel Jackson in SG-1? I don't think they've ever stated his religious preference, but from his dealings with SG-1 and offworld missions, it's pretty clear he simply isn't very big on the whole god thing and frequently works on debunking imposters.

I can't help but think of him falling into the category of doubting-atheist-who-encounters-unexplainable-encounter-with-godliness or some such thing. You often find the stereotypical "Doubting Thomas" sceptic to be found in family TV and film who has a change of heart later on because of some spiritual encounter. Total bull, of course; a real atheist with a rational mind would not be so easily fazed unless the world was turned on its head and all logic lost.

I guess people just can't stand those that devote themselves to science and find nothing mysterious about the universe that can't otherwise be explained by physics. Atheists then, are by definition, the doubters in the minority with curmudgeonly behaviour and a holier-than-thou complex.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-30 09:14pm

In the movies, if someone is an atheist, he is an atheist because he's seen the harsh side of reality and decided that God must either be an asshole or he doesn't exist. Or maybe he's just a skeptic by nature, without being able to produce any particular reason for his disbelief other than rebellion, anti-establishmentarianism, a desire to be different, contempt for authority in general, etc.

Movies don't show the guy who has simply figured out that the idea of God doesn't make any sense.

lance · Post by **lance** » 2006-10-01 01:35am

What about somebody from SLC punks? I think at least one of them would have been an athiest.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2006-10-01 02:46am

The only movie I can think of with a definitively positive portrayal of atheists is Chocolat. Not only is the atheist played by the über-sexy Juliette Binoche, but she makes fucking good chocolate and enlightens everyone as to Easter's pagan roots. Then she winds up getting the Christians of the town she's moved to to celebrate the Spring fertility festival.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-10-01 03:57am

General Zod wrote:
sketerpot wrote:Well damn, this is a problem. I can't think of a single TV show or movie, of any type, which shows a non-fucked-up atheist character, and apparently nobody else can either.

Now that I come to think of it, part of my own de-conversion from Christianity was simply the realization that there were ways of looking at the world and living one's life that didn't involve God, it wasn't awful, these weren't awful people, and it didn't feel bleak and amoral. This came mainly from reading science fiction books, a lot of which seem to be written by atheists and agnostics.

Without that sort of thing in the popular culture, how the hell are atheists ever supposed to be considered more than just bitter, arrogant pricks? This isn't a rhetorical question; I'm really looking for some ideas here.
What about Daniel Jackson in SG-1? I don't think they've ever stated his religious preference, but from his dealings with SG-1 and offworld missions, it's pretty clear he simply isn't very big on the whole god thing and frequently works on debunking imposters.

Nobody in SG-1 mentions any of the modern major religions at all, except maybe that one episode with the Unas serving 'Satan'. Given that 'Satan' seems to be an alias for the Goa'uld Sokar, and everyone knows that.. well. It wouldn't surprise me if most of SG-1's characters were atheists, or at best, deists.

Daniel Jackson knows full well also there isn't really a 'heaven' or 'gods', just 'more powerful entities' in the form of ascension.

Warthog · Post by **Warthog** » 2006-10-01 04:39am

sketerpot wrote:In Serenity, Mal starts out an atheist and, after undergoing a minor epiphany in his beliefs, ends up... still an atheist.

He used to believe in God prior to the battle of Serenity Valley. It's been a while since I watched the series but it's mentioned a few times that he lost his faith when the Independants lost the battle and following that the war.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2006-10-01 10:29am

Well, Ray in Ghostbusters says, when asked by Winston if he believes in God, that he's "never met him". Considering his job and education, one would think he would have thought about that question quite a lot, so I'd say his answer is just a nicer version of "hell no". He also rolls his eyes when the bishop-guy says he thinks all the stuff happening in the city is a sign from God.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2006-10-01 10:52am

Just a reminder, that no character in any meda production can get away with being 100% OK about anything in their life at the start of the media. The entire purpose of the story is to have that character change and grow as a result of various experiences. Hell, in a film, main characters are supposed to generally start out in a situation (either phyiscally, socially or emotionally) that is below the average audiecne member.

It's times like this that I enjoy being a writer--beause I actually have a graph to illustrate that (yes, a writer wth a graph!).

To the direct topic, Gill Grissom of CSI is, unless I'm mistaken, an Agnostic (his reasoning being "I don't like what people do in the name of religion").

But most of the time, Atheism is allied with Skepticsism and used as a roadblock for other characters.

Netko · Post by **Netko** » 2006-10-01 12:13pm

Nephtys wrote:Nobody in SG-1 mentions any of the modern major religions at all, except maybe that one episode with the Unas serving 'Satan'. Given that 'Satan' seems to be an alias for the Goa'uld Sokar, and everyone knows that.. well. It wouldn't surprise me if most of SG-1's characters were atheists, or at best, deists.

Daniel Jackson knows full well also there isn't really a 'heaven' or 'gods', just 'more powerful entities' in the form of ascension.

Carter is a Roman Catholic, however it has been pretty low key and only indirectly referenced in a couple of episodes. Also, going by that interview, yes, she possibly is a lapsed Catholic, now deist. As for not referenecing any modern religions - that cop out about not knowing if there is anything more powerful then ancients/orii sure sounded like a reference to you-know-who.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 12:16pm

Dooey Jo wrote:Well, Ray in Ghostbusters says, when asked by Winston if he believes in God, that he's "never met him". Considering his job and education, one would think he would have thought about that question quite a lot, so I'd say his answer is just a nicer version of "hell no". He also rolls his eyes when the bishop-guy says he thinks all the stuff happening in the city is a sign from God.

That's not a very good example because if he is an atheist, then he's proven wrong, as usual in Hollywood.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-10-01 02:55pm

I don't think Ray is a bad example, the only god that's shown to be real stamps on a christian church and Ray stands up to it and tells it to leave New York immediately.

The christian god is never considered as real as the ancient babylonian one to Ray, and that's because he's got evidence all over the place for one of them. While he is a hero, he's also considered eccentric and is never seen with a family or anything.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 03:28pm

Rye wrote:I don't think Ray is a bad example, the only god that's shown to be real stamps on a christian church and Ray stands up to it and tells it to leave New York immediately.

So? Satan would undoubtedly do the same. The Book of Revelation is cited as true in that movie.