Dr. Who season 2 starts tonight on Sci-Fi

[mr friendly guy]

I don't see it as simply a matter of Harriet's right vs the Doctor's right to make the decision. It should be whose decision is more tactically and strategically sound (from the view of protecting Earth).

We know the Doctor wanted the Sycorax to spread the word that Earth is protected. Presumably he felt this would help protect earth.

Unfortunately we don't get to see many arguments either way, since the conversation was very short. Which is why I want to see the ramifications of Harriet's decision. Was the Doctor ultimately right in some way which was unforseen (but which the Doctor might have known about, with a better grasp of future events than Harriet), or did Harriet make the right call (which would involve a alternative time line story where the Sycorax weren't destroyed).

[Stark]

Sorry, that's stupid. Britain has been attacked. Jones runs Britain. Britain is armed. What's your problem? Some fucking space hobo should sit in on these decisions now?

Even the Doctor never said her decision was WRONG. He said it was violent, aggressive, bad, poor form, all that rubbish. He didn't say it was going to bring shit on their heads - simply that it was the side of humans he doesn't like to acknowledge, the side that will drive humans to conquer the galaxy. Guess what?

Too fucking bad.

It's worth pointing out that the Doctor was invalid for most of the conflict and erratic the rest: Jones felt that Earth should defend itself, rather than rely on this dubious help. It was a straightfoward moral conflict, with Jones doing what was expident and the Doctor harping on about the sanctity of life.

Your suggestion that this conflict should be resolved is insane. It's a moral conflict. It tells us things about the characters involved. And you want someone to show up and say 'in this parallel world' just to prove who was right?

[Faram]

Harriet Jones did something soldiers and cops aren't supposed to do, shot someone in the back, or more specifically, obliterated a retreating enemy. I personally view that as wrong, even though they were invading assholes who didn't deserve better.

The hell you don't.

My instruktor in the army told us that shooting the enemy in the back is prefered.

He cannot see you, hence he cannot kill you, and if you kill him now he cannot return an other day to kill you.

[Tychu]

Harriet Jones did something soldiers and cops aren't supposed to do, shot someone in the back, or more specifically, obliterated a retreating enemy. I personally view that as wrong, even though they were invading assholes who didn't deserve better.

The hell you don't.

My instruktor in the army told us that shooting the enemy in the back is prefered.

He cannot see you, hence he cannot kill you, and if you kill him now he cannot return an other day to kill you.

lol besides reading it in my head with a Viking Accent makes that even funnier, good times good times

There are 2 things that leave a bad taste in the mouth for that Friday Night September 29th 2006.
1) is why put the comment in Christmas Invasion about the President of the United States, trying to tell the PM of Britain what to do "Hes not the boss of me, starting up a War?". That was totally uncalled for. Especially when you have a show here that is trying to get into American Televisions.
2) Damn Sci-Fi shows the ad for the Doctor Who Season 2 DVD being available in January 2007. Kinda saying, hey well you can watch the Doctor now, but just so you know the episodes are like almost a year old and the DVD is already made. We look foward to having your money in 4 months (this right before Christmas Invasion airs)

[Netko]

The hell you don't.

My instruktor in the army told us that shooting the enemy in the back is prefered.

He cannot see you, hence he cannot kill you, and if you kill him now he cannot return an other day to kill you.

lol besides reading it in my head with a Viking Accent makes that even funnier, good times good times

For some reason, after reading that I reread Farams post as if Hagar the Viking was saying them and promptly had real RAICL (rolling around in a chair laughing) moment.

[mr friendly guy]

Sorry, that's stupid. Britain has been attacked. Jones runs Britain. Britain is armed. What's your problem? Some fucking space hobo should sit in on these decisions now?

Well when you divert resources looking for a space hobo to help you, it seems kind of stupid not to even listen to what he has to say when you got him. But thats just me.

It would have been better if Harriet asked the Doctor what he would do and why, and then fired the Torchwood weapon anyway.

No one is denying its Harriet's right to make the call. I am just asking whether the Doctor's suggestion was better. Obviously the answer to that question wasn't going to be revealed in The Christmas Invasion, which is why I want to see if there are any ramifications to Harriet's decision.

Your suggestion that this conflict should be resolved is insane. It's a moral conflict. It tells us things about the characters involved. And you want someone to show up and say 'in this parallel world' just to prove who was right?

Ok. The moral conflict tells us about the nature of the characters involve. Now what? Leave it alone and say well its done its job, lets not bother with asking who was right? I mean its not like we can't get any plots and characterisation around characters realising they are wrong and dealing with the consequences.

Newsflash. Drama involves conflicts which are resolved, and then new ones are created. The conflict with the Sycorax was resolved at the end of the episode and a new one created between the Doctor and Harriet over who was right. What's your problem that I want this conflict resolved as well?

[Old Peculier]

As far a I could see, the Sycorax deserved the death they got. Ignoring any military considerations, or the security of Earth, what's to stop them from invading some other technologically backward planet, as appears to be their way? Even if most of the crew of that ship were somehow innocent the ship had to be destroyed so that it didn't just go and pick on some other planet.

[Stark]

Your suggestion that this conflict should be resolved is insane. It's a moral conflict. It tells us things about the characters involved. And you want someone to show up and say 'in this parallel world' just to prove who was right?

Ok. The moral conflict tells us about the nature of the characters involve. Now what? Leave it alone and say well its done its job, lets not bother with asking who was right? I mean its not like we can't get any plots and characterisation around characters realising they are wrong and dealing with the consequences.

Newsflash. Drama involves conflicts which are resolved, and then new ones are created. The conflict with the Sycorax was resolved at the end of the episode and a new one created between the Doctor and Harriet over who was right. What's your problem that I want this conflict resolved as well?

Sigh. The whole season revolves around the Doctor's reverence for life and the fact that he brings death and disaster to those around him. He would rather they hadn't killed the Sycorax, and let them go on their merry enslaving, pillaging way. Beyond later invaders refusing to surrender since they heard humans don't let invaders leave, what are you looking for? You want a resolution to something that is a goddamn theme of the show! The Doctor likes there to be 'another way', but that just isn't how the world works. It says volumes about the Doctor that he'll avoid killing now to save lives later, and interfere with friendly worlds because he's angry. Gosh, maybe his reaction is fueled by his experiences during a recent war? Maybe he's conflicted? Maybe he's *not qualified to make the decision*? You apparently think everything he does is some kind of uber Time Lord super intervention powered by Future Knowledge(tm).

Nah, let's have a parallel universe story to wrap it up all nice and neat. Can't have unanswered questions or ongoing themes, no way. Got to be black and white, right? Even though the whole season was about death?

[mr friendly guy]

Beyond later invaders refusing to surrender since they heard humans don't let invaders leave, what are you looking for?

Oh I don't know, maybe other Sycorax or other aliens looking for the missing Sycorax ship then finding out Earth destroyed it, and now wanting to deal with Earth before it becomes a threat.

Or maybe the Doctor finds a parallel world where his double stopped the Torchwood attack and as a result that Earth is now screwed. Then tell the story around the Doctor trying undo "his" mistake.

If I can come up with this in a few minutes then is it too much to expect professional writers who are actually paid to write come up with something better?

You want a resolution to something that is a goddamn theme of the show!

As you are so fond of telling people, the theme of the show is a) he is lonely and b) he accompanies and sometimes brings death and destruction where ever he goes.

I was unaware that the Doctor's opinion vs Harriets has become the new theme. But hey, if you have spoilers for the new season please share them with us.

The Doctor likes there to be 'another way', but that just isn't how the world works. It says volumes about the Doctor that he'll avoid killing now to save lives later, and interfere with friendly worlds because he's angry. Gosh, maybe his reaction is fueled by his experiences during a recent war? Maybe he's conflicted? Maybe he's *not qualified to make the decision*? You apparently think everything he does is some kind of uber Time Lord super intervention powered by Future Knowledge(tm).

As I said, I have no problems with a plotline revolving around the Doctor being wrong. All I want is for future episodes to answer that question.

Nah, let's have a parallel universe story to wrap it up all nice and neat. Can't have unanswered questions or ongoing themes, no way. Got to be black and white, right? Even though the whole season was about death?

Some sci fi shows might work better with unanswered questions, X-files comes to mind and to a lesser extent Star Trek. Doctor Who however isn't one of them. So if you have unanswered questions, one would hope most of the important ones get answered later on.

Look Stark, it seems to be from all your other posts where you talk about what you hate etc that you prefer stories which are more pure drama and character orientated. I prefer stories which are more plot orientated. That seems to be the source of our disagreement since this thread has already gone from discussion of in-universe analysis of events to out-universe analysis of themes.

In fact this thread has become a tangent from "season two is on sci fi " to "Did Harriet make the correct call" to "What Stark wants to see/doesn't want to see in the next season vs what I would like to see".

If Stark chooses to reply can a mod please split the thread.

[DocHorror]

This thing happened before, when the Brigadier wiped out the Silurians. The Doctor was pissed then, but he got over it.

[DocHorror]

Plus i think this extract from 'Sympathy for the Devil' helps put Harriot Jones view into perspective...

The Master: You interfere all the time.
The Doctor: I help people.
The Master: You help the right sort of people, for all your well learned poly-tests you're just a snob.
The Doctor: Thats rich coming from you!
The Master: You have no grasp of the big picture, you just turn up and help the little people. You never think of posterity; why is that?
The Doctor: Because we're all little people thats why, because I make a difference where I can with the people around me, I can't change everything but I can make a difference for the common good.
The Master: For who's good? Chairman Mao spoke ever so highly of you, you know.
The Doctor: When I knew him he was a librarian.
The Master: You could have stopped him! You've let entire cultures, entire races die.
The Doctor: Thats not fair!
The Master: Try telling that to the lizards and the dinosaurs.
The Doctor: I can't be everywhere at once and I don't need a lecture on morals from a person like you!
The Master: Where were you during the plastic purges, what a shame you weren't able to put your diplomacy to use on Probe 7.
The Doctor: I don't know what you mean.
The Master: Of course you don't, thats why theres a line of mile wide craters across America. I had to live through it all, the chaos, the panic, the shortages...
The Doctor: I haven't been here since the 1960's!
The Master: It shows. I didn't see you at Mai Li, Doctor. I didn't see you in East Timor, no interfering in Rwanda I see...
The Doctor: Now hang on.
The Master: Going to pop back later and sort out Cambodia are we?
The Doctor: You're a pompous idiot!
The Master: Pol Pot killed every Doctor he could find and none of them was you. I've been stuck on this miserable planet for twenty years and I've done everything in my power to attract your attention, where were you in Tienanmen Square, when the tanks rolled in...

The Doctor interferes when it suits him, like Stark said he'll save lives now even if he knows it might punish others in the future.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Was that from a book? I can't recall even an epasode that had that in it, at least non of the American realised ones.

[Lord Woodlouse]

1) is why put the comment in Christmas Invasion about the President of the United States, trying to tell the PM of Britain what to do "Hes not the boss of me, starting up a War?". That was totally uncalled for. Especially when you have a show here that is trying to get into American Televisions.

Zaia giggled at that, so I don't think all Americans would find it universally offensive. Besides anything else the show is made first and foremost for a British audience. You're talking of around 6-10 million viewers per episode for the BBC. After this Canada (CBC is actually a partner in making the show) and Australia are probably secondary considerations. Then you have America.

I really doubt RTD even thinks of American opinion when writing it. If he can make 6-10 million Britons smile at the expense of 1-2 million frowning Americans you can bet your arse he'll do it.

[DocHorror]

Was that from a book? I can't recall even an epasode that had that in it, at least non of the American realised ones.

No, its a Big Finish audio adventure, an Dr Who unbound story. Similar to an elseworlds or infinites story. Though it is still rather great.

David Warner plays the Doctor and Mark Gatis the Master.

[Parallax]

It should be noted that various incarnations of the Doctor would have handled the situation very differently.

For example, the 7th Doctor probably would have destroyed the ship himself (would Harriest have been as angered as the 10th Doctor was?) while the 5th would have been truly appalled at the destruction. I believe there was a book where the 5th and 7th Doctors met ... the interaction was interesting to say the least.

[Patrick Degan]

1) is why put the comment in Christmas Invasion about the President of the United States, trying to tell the PM of Britain what to do "Hes not the boss of me, starting up a War?". That was totally uncalled for. Especially when you have a show here that is trying to get into American Televisions.

Sorry, but British writers can't be crafting scripts around worries about what may or may not piss off American rightards. That's the point of satire. And quite frankly, American television viewers need more, not less, of that sort of talk these days to maybe get them out of their present stupor of conformity.

[Coalition]

"Saving the world in a bathrobe. How very Arthur Dent of me."

[Tychu]

1) is why put the comment in Christmas Invasion about the President of the United States, trying to tell the PM of Britain what to do "Hes not the boss of me, starting up a War?". That was totally uncalled for. Especially when you have a show here that is trying to get into American Televisions.

Zaia giggled at that, so I don't think all Americans would find it universally offensive. Besides anything else the show is made first and foremost for a British audience. You're talking of around 6-10 million viewers per episode for the BBC. After this Canada (CBC is actually a partner in making the show) and Australia are probably secondary considerations. Then you have America.

I really doubt RTD even thinks of American opinion when writing it. If he can make 6-10 million Britons smile at the expense of 1-2 million frowning Americans you can bet your arse he'll do it.

no i know, dont get me wrong. I give England every right to put what ever they want in their shows, just so long as it dosent take away from the show. I meant well yes 1. Im American so it did bother me but 2) The show could have gone fine without it. Instead of having the line they could have just walked on the ship and not said anything and it would have been fine.

The Truth i had to piece it together afterwards what infact they said, since it is so small of a line.

[Tychu]

Since the thread dosent let me edit my post i was going to insert little examples of how im fine with a country inserting its own beliefs and what have you into their shows or movies

For America

Star Wars anyone, isn't it funny how the bad guys have British accents? hmmm

"I have a question, why is it that we have British accents when there isnt really a Britain..." ::pop::

[Netko]

Tychu, you really should see American shows from an outsiders perspective. They are very US patriotic, science fiction ones included (off the top of my head, SG1, SGA, SAAB). A little dose of what its like to have that perspective won't hurt Americans, and if the rest of the world can get over it in American shows, Americans can get over it in a British show.

[Netko]

Ghetto edit: perhaps not SGA, altough it leans that way they at least try to present a unified world operation.

[Lord Woodlouse]

1) is why put the comment in Christmas Invasion about the President of the United States, trying to tell the PM of Britain what to do "Hes not the boss of me, starting up a War?". That was totally uncalled for. Especially when you have a show here that is trying to get into American Televisions.

Zaia giggled at that, so I don't think all Americans would find it universally offensive. Besides anything else the show is made first and foremost for a British audience. You're talking of around 6-10 million viewers per episode for the BBC. After this Canada (CBC is actually a partner in making the show) and Australia are probably secondary considerations. Then you have America.

I really doubt RTD even thinks of American opinion when writing it. If he can make 6-10 million Britons smile at the expense of 1-2 million frowning Americans you can bet your arse he'll do it.

no i know, dont get me wrong. I give England every right to put what ever they want in their shows, just so long as it dosent take away from the show. I meant well yes 1. Im American so it did bother me but 2) The show could have gone fine without it. Instead of having the line they could have just walked on the ship and not said anything and it would have been fine.

The Truth i had to piece it together afterwards what infact they said, since it is so small of a line.

But that's the thing, it was more of a pop at what we assume to be either Bush or a Bush-like alternate. As I remember Zaia actually cheered at this. Not only do I think this is a British thing (and the reason it was added was to add a smile to Britons, not anything vital to the plot), I think this it's going to appeal to at least half of the Americans watching it, too.

[Dartzap]

Tychu, you really should see American shows from an outsiders perspective. They are very US patriotic, science fiction ones included (off the top of my head, SG1, SGA, SAAB). A little dose of what its like to have that perspective won't hurt Americans, and if the rest of the world can get over it in American shows, Americans can get over it in a British show.

Quite correct, you cannot imagine bloody annoying some shows are about the fact their aimed at Americans and the rest of the planet might as well not exist.

[Stark]

Oh come on - he's complaining that it's bad to say nasty-yet-topical things about the US. How dare they! It might put off American audiences!

The rest of the world puts up with this shit *all the time*. It'll be our INDEPENDENCE DAY YAY.

[Patrick Degan]

Since the thread dosent let me edit my post i was going to insert little examples of how im fine with a country inserting its own beliefs and what have you into their shows or movies

For America

Star Wars anyone, isn't it funny how the bad guys have British accents? hmmm

"I have a question, why is it that we have British accents when there isnt really a Britain..." ::pop::

It's because everybody knows that the British are inherently terrifying.