Family Programming, Religion, and Insensitive Atheists

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-10-01 03:32pm

Revelation is cited to get the point of the apocalypse across to the overtly catholic mayor, out of them, Winston was probably the only one that believed it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 03:42pm

Rye wrote:Revelation is cited to get the point of the apocalypse across to the overtly catholic mayor, out of them, Winston was probably the only one that believed it.

Ray seemed pretty spooked by Winston's assertion that the events they'd experienced were the Book of Revelation coming true, and recited the appropriate passage from Revelation word-for-word by heart. But you're still missing the larger point, which is that America's greatest bigotry is not between Christians and other religions, but between the religious and the irreligious. We're talking about atheists, not just "believers in religious nonsense other than Christianity".

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2006-10-01 04:49pm

Cincinnatus wrote:Dr. Cameron from House is also an athiest, and she isn't an ass.

I swear she spent some time in a church crying because she helped a doctor kill himself.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-10-01 05:02pm

Isn't Dr. Who family programing? Granted, it's Briitsh family programing. The Doctor is undoubtedly an atheist. He isn't what one would call normal, but he is portrayed positively.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 05:05pm

I doubt Dr. Who is a big hit with kids' TV anyway, never mind American kids' TV. Kids' TV is particularly insidious because the children really do pick up a lot of messages from it, and have less in the way of mental defenses to pick out bad logic or false claims. If family TV does indeed consistently portray skeptics as bitter, unhappy people, then kids will pick up that message and internalize it, making it into a subconscious assumption that colours their future thinking about the matter.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-10-01 05:10pm

In Britain, Doctor Who is indeed childrens programming. It's dense enough for adults, but it's success is always measured by how many kids it can have hiding behind the sofa.

But yeah, British.

Interestingly, as a kid I never made these connections. My parents are vaguely religious, but I never even considered any kind of 'belief' - by the time I thought about it, I was in my teens and I'd never believed my parent's religion for a second. Symptom of the 80s?

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-10-01 05:11pm

Mike, you'll be happy to know that 7th Heaven is returning for an 11th season on the new CW network.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 05:13pm

I don't know what it's like in Australia, but in America family entertainemnt is very heavily weighted to favour church. The churches have made a concerted, deliberate effort to make anything and everything which kids might see or hear fit their agenda. That's why they go berserk when they hear that a school textbook even so much as mentions that gay parents might even exist at all.

A good example of the result is Howard Stern, who disavows any religious belief himself but who once commented on-air that he would want his daughter to date a religious young man. When asked why, he simply said that he felt more comfortable with the idea of his daughter dating a religious man even though he himself was not religious. He couldn't explain it, he just felt more comfortable with it. That's a lifetime of cultural programming at work.

Galvatron wrote:Mike, you'll be happy to know that 7th Heaven is returning for an 11th season on the new CW network.

Only if "happy" is actually a synonym for "nauseous".

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-10-01 05:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:I don't know what it's like in Australia, but in America family entertainemnt is very heavily weighted to favour church. The churches have made a concerted, deliberate effort to make anything and everything which kids might see or hear fit their agenda. That's why they go berserk when they hear that a school textbook even so much as mentions that gay parents might even exist at all.

This is very different in Australia. Most shows rarely reference religion at all. It's overwhelming in the imported American shows etc, but nobody here really understands why troubled American protaganists go to stand in a church when they should be talking to their wives.

Darth Wong wrote:A good example of the result is Howard Stern, who disavows any religious belief himself but who once commented on-air that he would want his daughter to date a religious young man. When asked why, he simply said that he felt more comfortable with the idea of his daughter dating a religious man even though he himself was not religious. He couldn't explain it, he just felt more comfortable with it. That's a lifetime of cultural programming at work.

That's *crazy*. That cultural link of Christian=normal=good must be pretty damn strong if opinionated atheists can't shake it.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-10-01 05:52pm

It's culture. It's rather insidious, since Churches are always 'good' places, where bake-offs are held, and communities meet. There's 'good, well-groomed families' and so on, and so forth. Though as one of those opinionated Atheists, I'd probably not care if someone I knew was either Agnostic or a Diest, or a full Atheist. They're close enough to me in 'practical' terms of how often this would interfere with life or intellectual discussion.

It's the same reason people go 'God' or 'Jesus!' in common speach, even if they don't care for either idea. It's part of the language and the culture. It's hard to kick. I for one, can't kick it wholly despite using 'substitute' words as exclaimations, like Sivar, Valen, or Goddess.

Cincinnatus · Post by **Cincinnatus** » 2006-10-01 06:40pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Cincinnatus wrote:Dr. Cameron from House is also an athiest, and she isn't an ass.
I swear she spent some time in a church crying because she helped a doctor kill himself.

She's said in the past that she doesn't believe in God because the idea is nonsensical. I think t was in the episode Damned if You Do, the one with the nuns. Dr. House has also referred to her as an atheist.

Maybe the writers put her in the church because they were afraid that the audience wouldn't get that she helped the patient kill himself.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 06:54pm

What about Garibaldi from B-5?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-10-01 06:58pm

Darth Servo wrote:What about Garibaldi from B-5?

Wasn't he fucked up six ways from Sunday and a drunk who betrayed Sheridan?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 07:00pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:What about Garibaldi from B-5?
Wasn't he fucked up six ways from Sunday and a drunk who betrayed Sheridan?

Drunk only in one ep of season one and then again in season 5. Betrayed Sheridan while having his mind fuck with by the psycorps.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-10-01 07:16pm

Darth Servo wrote: Drunk only in one ep of season one and then again in season 5. Betrayed Sheridan while having his mind fuck with by the psycorps.

Ok, haven't seen B5 in a few years so I wasn't to sure on the fine details.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 07:24pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:What about Garibaldi from B-5?
Wasn't he fucked up six ways from Sunday and a drunk who betrayed Sheridan?
Drunk only in one ep of season one and then again in season 5. Betrayed Sheridan while having his mind fuck with by the psycorps.

He was a cynical, bitter, angry man. Classic Hollywood atheist.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 07:33pm

OK, I see what you mean. Most of the time I saw him as a pretty likeable guy though. And just about everyone on that show had serious psychological problems.

Sheridan: nearly flushed his career down the crapper interogating Mordan for the death of his wife.
Franklin: addicted to stims and obsessed with his job, nearly getting more than one patient killed.
Ivanova: basket case due to her poor relationship with her father.
Lyta: flaming tower of rage.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-10-01 07:33pm

How about The Cat from Red Dwarf? Although he was extremely self-obsessed.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 07:35pm

Darth Servo wrote:OK, I see what you mean. Most of the time I saw him as a pretty likeable guy though. And just about everyone on that show had serious psychological problems.

Sheridan: nearly flushed his career down the crapper interogating Mordan for the death of his wife.
Franklin: addicted to stims and obsessed with his job, nearly getting more than one patient killed.
Ivanova: basket case due to her poor relationship with her father.
Lyta: flaming tower of rage.

Yes. The only level-headed people you ever saw on the show was the group of monks who came through in search of more spirituality. Oh, and G'Kar, who seemed to have his fucking Narn holy book welded to his hands.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 07:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:Yes. The only level-headed people you ever saw on the show was the group of monks who came through in search of more spirituality.

Not quite. One of them did turn out to be a mind-wipped serial killer.

Oh, and G'Kar, who seemed to have his fucking Narn holy book welded to his hands.

For most of the show, G'Kar's entire existance can be summed up by "kill the Centauri". Kosh had to straighten him out. Of course it should be pointed out that it was through a religious vision while G'Kar was doped up on dust.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-10-01 08:22pm

Well. B5's Zach was pretty level-headed. And he was the blue-collar average joe, who used hard work and guts to get through, as well as common sense not to trust what people told you to think, in the case of the Night Watch.

Lennier was all around an un-fucked up character, and pretty much totally serene except when he becomes 'serene, but slightly pissed', and does that 'throw up the horns' Minbar-fu stuff.

The Monks weren't all that right either though. At least two of their members were mind-wiped convicts, after all.

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » 2006-10-01 08:28pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:Isn't Dr. Who family programing? Granted, it's Briitsh family programing. The Doctor is undoubtedly an atheist. He isn't what one would call normal, but he is portrayed positively.

The Doctor's beliefs have changed a lot over his existence. He's stood up and fought the equivalent of gods and even satan many a time in his life, yet during parts of his 8th incarnation (maybe later 7th as well) ... well ... he prayed a lot to aspects of existence such as Time. He may have also prayed to traditional Gallifreyan deities but I'd have to look that up, I'm not sure at the moment.

Then again, he's personally met Time (and Death for that matter) and made deals with him/her/it/them so he's pretty damn sure Time and Death exist - and they are personifications of fundamental aspects of creation, so they're as close to gods as you'd find in the who-verse.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2006-10-01 09:36pm

Cincinnatus wrote:
She's said in the past that she doesn't believe in God because the idea is nonsensical. I think t was in the episode Damned if You Do, the one with the nuns. Dr. House has also referred to her as an atheist.

Maybe the writers put her in the church because they were afraid that the audience wouldn't get that she helped the patient kill himself.

That's almost as bad as showing an atheist who's angry, depressed, or suddenly finds god. It seems that very few people understand the perspective that a true atheist holds.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 09:41pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Yes. The only level-headed people you ever saw on the show was the group of monks who came through in search of more spirituality.
Not quite. One of them did turn out to be a mind-wipped serial killer.

And in his new religious incarnation, he was a nice guy.

Oh, and G'Kar, who seemed to have his fucking Narn holy book welded to his hands.
For most of the show, G'Kar's entire existance can be summed up by "kill the Centauri".

Yes, before he started carrying his holy book around with him wherever he went. Religion saved G'Kar too.

Nephtys wrote:Well. B5's Zach was pretty level-headed. And he was the blue-collar average joe, who used hard work and guts to get through, as well as common sense not to trust what people told you to think, in the case of the Night Watch.

Yes, he was pretty level-headed. Mind you, I saw no evidence that he was an atheist either; his beliefs never came up.

Lennier was all around an un-fucked up character, and pretty much totally serene except when he becomes 'serene, but slightly pissed', and does that 'throw up the horns' Minbar-fu stuff.

Two words: religious caste.

The Monks weren't all that right either though. At least two of their members were mind-wiped convicts, after all.

I don't remember the second one, but the first one was a nice guy when he became part of their order. That hardly disproves what I'm saying. In B5, if you're fucked up, religion will save you.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-10-02 12:25am

I've noticed that before. Very strange, as JMS says he's atheist.