What seperates Psychopaths and Sociopaths

[18-Till-I-Die]

Just something i've never quite fully understood. I knwo both are bad and i would prefer to avoid them both but i never fully had anyone give me the boiled down explaination. I've tried looking it up but all the psychobabble might as well be Greek to me.

So this is what, i think, i've been able to grasp...

Psychopaths are simply unable to get the whole concept of right and wrong, in as much as they simply cant bring themselves to care. They're pathological liars, users, and basically deviants from every ethical or moral norm society has.

Sociopaths are unable to feel emotions like compassion, love, empathy in any way and basically treat everyone as if they existed for their own uses. I also read that a lot of 'punishments' dont work on Sociopaths cause they dont really fear pain or punishment, soi got the idea they may lack other emotions as well, like fear.

So is this a reasonable assessment? Did i miss something, or is this the basic idea of whats wrong with these folks?

[SirNitram]

Psychopaths have no empathy, remorse, or guilt. They feel no social obligation at all. They are egocentric, and have low thresholds for aggression and frustration. They have very little impulse control. Sociopaths typically are the same, but far more in control of themselves.

[Xisiqomelir]

Sociopaths are overrepresented in several influential groups in society, due to the advantages the disorder brings.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Sociopaths are overrepresented in several influential groups in society, due to the advantages the disorder brings.

What advantages ? From what I've heard, they tend to be screw ups. They fail at what they do, because without emotions they don't care if they succeed; they can't even do well at cards. Sociopathy really screws up decision making.

You may be thinking of psychopaths.

[Medic]

Sociopaths are overrepresented in several influential groups in society, due to the advantages the disorder brings.

What advantages ? From what I've heard, they tend to be screw ups. They fail at what they do, because without emotions they don't care if they succeed; they can't even do well at cards. Sociopathy really screws up decision making.

You may be thinking of psychopaths.

How would hot headedness lend itself to rationale decision making? I think you're off.

Anyway, link to a site with these anti-social personalities.

AGGRESSIVE SOCIOPATHS derive strong, yet nonperverse gratification from harming others. They like to hurt, frighten, tyrannize, bully, and manipulate. They do it for a sense of power and control, and will often only drop subtle hints about what they are up to. They polish their aggressive, domineering manner in such a way to disguise any intimidation others might feel. They seek out positions of power, such as parent, teacher, bureaucrat, supervisor, or police officer. Their style is one of passive aggression as they systematically go about sabotaging the ideas of others to get their ideas in place. In their spare time, they like to hunt or occasionally do sadistic things like find stray dogs and cut them up. They are usually effective at getting their way, and are especially vindictive if resisted or crossed. They don't follow the social norm of reciprocity like others do.

Since we're on personality disorders, sadly I'm in one of the most underrepresented by definition.

[Lord of the Abyss]

How would hot headedness lend itself to rationale decision making? I think you're off.

Better than emotionlessness. Hotheaded people can make decisions and have long term goals; emotionless sociopaths live for the moment, the next immediate physical pleasure. They often have trouble making simple decisions; they can get caught between two or more options and dither indefinitely because they have no emotions pushing them to make a decision. They do things they know will lead to disaster, because they cannot care about anything except now.

BTW, part of the problem here is that as far as I can tell, the meaning of the words psychopath and sociopath tend to vary a lot. Like :

AGGRESSIVE SOCIOPATHS derive strong, yet nonperverse gratification from harming others. They like to hurt, frighten, tyrannize, bully, and manipulate. They do it for a sense of power and control, and will often only drop subtle hints about what they are up to. They polish their aggressive, domineering manner in such a way to disguise any intimidation others might feel. They seek out positions of power, such as parent, teacher, bureaucrat, supervisor, or police officer. Their style is one of passive aggression as they systematically go about sabotaging the ideas of others to get their ideas in place. In their spare time, they like to hunt or occasionally do sadistic things like find stray dogs and cut them up. They are usually effective at getting their way, and are especially vindictive if resisted or crossed. They don't follow the social norm of reciprocity like others do.

That's not the definition I was using or the OP was. That's how we were using the term psychopath. I was using the term as used in the book Descarte's Error, because that's where I first encountered the subject in any detail.

[Superman]

Psychopaths are sociopaths. In the psychiatric literature, there is no equal term to psychopathy, but what's called Antisocial personality disorder is pretty close. It is diagnosed using g Robert D. Hare's Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R). He sums psychopathy in this way: "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."

One problem with this term is that it also has legal and jurisdictional definitions, and none are quite the same. From the PCL-R:

This is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point (0, 1, 2) scale according to specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured interview. A value of 0 is assigned if the item does not apply, 1 if it applies somewhat, and 2 if it fully applies. The items are as follows:

1. Glibness/superficial charm
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
4. Pathological lying
5. Conning/manipulative
6. Lack of remorse or guilt
7. Shallow affect
8. Callous/lack of empathy
9. Parasitic lifestyle
10. Poor behavioral controls
11. Promiscuous sexual behavior
12. Early behavioral problems
13. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
14. Impulsivity
15. Irresponsibility
16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
17. Many short-term marital relationships
18. Juvenile delinquency
19. Revocation of conditional release
20. Criminal versatility

The items are then summed in order to obtain a total score. The cutoff for psychopathy is 30 points or greater (25 in some studies)

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines antisocial personality disorder as a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

The manual lists the following additional necessary criteria:

* The individual is at least age 18 years.
* There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
* The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.

Finally, the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) lists what's called Dissocial Personality Disorder:

Dissocial Personality Disorder:

* callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
* gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations;
* incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;
* very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;
* incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment;
* marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behavior that has brought the patient into conflict with society.

Despite what fundietards have to say, being severely uncaring and manipulative does not seem to be our natural instinct; rather it is an expression of a psyche that has been raised under conditions of severe abuse or neglect where people are seen as objects to be manipulated.

Legal definitions aside, psychopaths and sociopaths are rough equivalents.

[Trytostaydead]

I think it's a matter of extreme.

As pointed out earlier, antisocial behavior can lead to wild success in some fields, and these people lead good lives. And it's not necessarily the absense of emotion, but the lack of empathy/caring or the thrill of manipulating. A lot of antisocial people in relationships will see it as a game to see how much they can manipulate their partners and look down on others who don't share their same point of view.

I'd supplement what Superman put up with the DSM-IV, but it's all just the same. The best line I think that describes it came from Goodfellas, well, at least in my opinion. Where Henry describes other people as being "dead" to them because they played by a different set of rules where they took and did what they wanted and nothing else mattered.

[Superman]

I think it's a matter of extreme.

As pointed out earlier, antisocial behavior can lead to wild success in some fields, and these people lead good lives. And it's not necessarily the absense of emotion, but the lack of empathy/caring or the thrill of manipulating. A lot of antisocial people in relationships will see it as a game to see how much they can manipulate their partners and look down on others

You're not talking about psychopathy or sociopathy. The drive or willingness you're talking about is called 'sublimation.' For the clinical definition of antisocial, see above. With a true psychopath, there is a complete lack of guilt.

I'd supplement what Superman put up with the DSM-IV, but it's all just the same. The best line I think that describes it came from Goodfellas, well, at least in my opinion. Where Henry describes other people as being "dead" to them because they played by a different set of rules where they took and did what they wanted and nothing else mattered.

Yes, I would agree. One might even say the mob was a psychopathic organization.

[Trytostaydead]

You're not talking about psychopathy or sociopathy. The drive or willingness you're talking about is called 'sublimation.' For the clinical definition of antisocial, see above. With a true psychopath, there is a complete lack of guilt.

Sorry, I was talking more about antisocials.

[Mobiboros]

Psychologically speaking:
Sociopathy and Psychosis are 2 different disorders.

Sociopathy is actually "antisocial personality disorder" http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disor ... cialpd.htm

Psychosis is part of the same grouping as Schizophrenia
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disor ... chosis.htm

The basics are that antisocial is generally an inability to care about social norms coupled with an inability to be compassionate. There is an understanding of "right" and "wrong" but there's a lack of caring about the distinction.
Whereas Psychosis is a mental break with reality. There's a drecreased understanding of not only right and wrong but functioning in reality.

[Superman]

You're not talking about psychopathy or sociopathy. The drive or willingness you're talking about is called 'sublimation.' For the clinical definition of antisocial, see above. With a true psychopath, there is a complete lack of guilt.

Sorry, I was talking more about antisocials.

Antisocial is psychopathy, basically... Seems silly, I know, but psychopathy is APD in the DSM.

[Superman]

Psychologically speaking:
Sociopathy and Psychosis are 2 different disorders.

Sociopathy is actually "antisocial personality disorder" http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disor ... cialpd.htm

Psychosis is part of the same grouping as Schizophrenia
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disor ... chosis.htm

The basics are that antisocial is generally an inability to care about social norms coupled with an inability to be compassionate. There is an understanding of "right" and "wrong" but there's a lack of caring about the distinction.
Whereas Psychosis is a mental break with reality. There's a drecreased understanding of not only right and wrong but functioning in reality.

Psychosis is totally different. Don't let the prefix throw you.

[Trytostaydead]

Antisocial is psychopathy, basically... Seems silly, I know, but psychopathy is APD in the DSM.

I know, but oftentimes they're also used to describe extremes outside of when you're coding them of course

[Patrick Degan]

A psychopath:






A sociopath:

[Elfdart]

A psychopath hangs from the top of the cave while the sociopath grows up from the bottom of the cave.