So many words, so little intelligence ...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 04:08pm

Even if we accepted his laughable supposition that the Federation could build all sorts of new forces and bases after losing to the Empire and becoming an insurgency, what difference would it make? Why do they even need to be cloaked, for fuck's sake? This guy is an absolute retard if he thinks you can't just hide small asteroid bases in the vastness of space. The reason they found Hoth is that it was a fairly large base, located on a planet. Dipshit bases hidden here and there (which are all that a Federation insurgency could realistically manage) wouldn't even matter.

A cloak is only useful if you're trying to hide from someone who is already within visual range, otherwise it's nothing more than an abstraction. The real problem for a hypothetical Federation insurgency is not staying hidden: insurgencies have managed to blend into the population for thousands of years. The real problem is inflicting enough damage on Imperial forces to make them want to leave, and hoping against hope that the Imperials won't retaliate with utterly ruthless revenge tactics a la Alexander the Great. This is just another example of TardBoy not thinking of the mechanics of the situation, and just wanking over an incredibly oversimplified view of what would be happening.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 04:19pm

Darth Wong wrote:Even if we accepted his laughable supposition that the Federation could build all sorts of new forces and bases after losing to the Empire and becoming an insurgency, what difference would it make? Why do they even need to be cloaked, for fuck's sake? This guy is an absolute retard if he thinks you can't just hide small asteroid bases in the vastness of space. The reason they found Hoth is that it was a fairly large base, located on a planet. Dipshit bases hidden here and there (which are all that a Federation insurgency could realistically manage) wouldn't even matter.

Ah but Mike, remember, these bases have REPLICATORS so they'd be able to reduild the entire Federation in hours.

A cloak is only useful if you're trying to hide from someone who is already within visual range, otherwise it's nothing more than an abstraction. The real problem for a hypothetical Federation insurgency is not staying hidden: insurgencies have managed to blend into the population for thousands of years. The real problem is inflicting enough damage on Imperial forces to make them want to leave, and hoping against hope that the Imperials won't retaliate with utterly ruthless revenge tactics a la Alexander the Great. This is just another example of TardBoy not thinking of the mechanics of the situation, and just wanking over an incredibly oversimplified view of what would be happening.

I already mentioned to idiot boy that these insurgents would never be able to re-capture any Federation planets due to the Empire installing planetary shields on them. He completely ignored that point.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 04:22pm

Darth Servo wrote:I already mentioned to idiot boy that these insurgents would never be able to re-capture any Federation planets due to the Empire installing planetary shields on them. He completely ignored that point.

Even without planetary shields, how would they recapture them? Call upon their nonexistent ground armies to retake the planet? Bombard it from orbit, despite the fact that these are their own people they'd be killing off? Hope the Imps are using no counter-measures and use a magic transporter that can differentiate between Imperial humans and Federation humans?

Vehrec · Post by **Vehrec** » 2006-10-01 04:25pm

I bet his idea is somthing like "SECTION 31 MAKES NANOVIRUSPROBES THAT DESTROY CELLS WITH MIDICLORIANS FROM SECRET CLOAKED BASE!" The problem of course being delivery, spreading the probeviruses and the fact that any plauge unleashed on the Star Wars Galaxy would have every imperial medical scientist on it in days. The Federation does NOT have exclusive rights to basic concepts like reaserch.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 04:46pm

The idea of an insurgency attempting to dislodge an occupier through the use of bio-terror is idiotic at best, insane at worst. At best, you might convince the Empire to pull out and leave smoking barren planetoids behind where once you had thriving civilizations. And that's assuming that all of his wanking is correct, despite its various leaps in logic and magically granted abilities. Your name would go down in history as the fool who destroyed the entire Federation.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 05:43pm

My response to his latest nonsense, part 1. I borrowed ideas and quoted a few people and tried to point out all such quoting. If I missed something, I apologize in advance. I don't mean to plagarize.

Buddy, how old are you anyway? I ask because your poor grammar and spelling alone are enough to give me a headache.

Thank you for your reply, and I appreciate your provokative comments on my scenario.
Please note, there is no 'k' in 'provocative'

Although in Star Wars we occasionally see primative target systems, they seem to not be in wide use.
What makes you think them primitive? Gut instincts? Superficial appearances?

For example, in AOTC, when the Jedi are under attack from the Trade Federation, and are encircled, a single shot from space could have easily wiped out the Jedi (and with less losses than simply swarming them). However, despire Trade Federation air superiority, this never occured.
I see you missed the entire point of the Clone Wars which was to boost Palpatine into power. Didn't you notice, Palpatine was controling BOTH sides of that conflict? Palpatine wanted to VILIFY the Jedi and wiping them out in that battle would have only made them into martyrs.

Furthermore, the Trade Fed core ships were all ON THE GROUND as we saw when Obi-wan flew in to Geonisis. They did NOT have air superiority.

The Federation, however, has demonstrated this orbital-precision attack in the episode "A piece of the action", where the Enterprise fires a highly precise stun-shot at two cars, having the precision to hit a small group of men, at a highly controlled blast radius.
1) They targeted an entire city block in that episode. Thats hardly precision.
2) The Enterprise was ALONE in orbit around that planet. No enemy ships firing back. No ECM. NOTHING to disturb them from firing on the ground. In other words, IDEAL CONDITIONS. Anyone can hit bullseyes in those conditions. We NEVER see Fed ships having such precise targeting in combat situations.

Even though those turrets were designed to hit Imperial ships, there was no reason for them to be aimed by human gunning crews.
What makes you think the gunning crews were aiming them? And separate gunnery crews on Imperial ships is an advantage for the EMPIRE. On a Federation ship if the bridge is destroyed, the ship is dead weight. On Imperial ships if the bridge is destroyed, the guns still remain fully operational.

Even if you're not trying to hit a tiny fighter, precision is still rather important, as you may want to target a specific part of a ship.
And why would the Empire need to do this against the Federation when they would be going after complete kills rather than disabling?

As for your claims that Federation ships never miss, you have to acknowledge that your video focuses predominately on Klingon ships missing the target,
No, I don't since its an out-right falsehood. The video shows ships from just about every major power in Star Trek: Klingons, Federation, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, Borg, etc.

Besides, even if it was nothing but Klingon ships, those ships can still hold their own against Federation ships. In fact in "Yesterday's Enterprise"
in the alternate timeline, the Klingons were BEATING the Federation. All this inspite of the ALLEGED superior targeting of Federation ships. Why would that be?

and although one scene shows that a Defiant class ship may have missed (its a little unclear), we never really see Federation ships missing.
Out-right lie. We repeatedly see Federation ships missing. In the scene presented from "Paradise Lost" the Defiant was fighting against another Fed ship and those two ships were the ONLY ships in the area. Yet
the Defiant has only about a 50% hit ratio against a ~400 meter long slug. No SW ship has ever shown THAT poor of accuracy.

DS9 also shows numerous misses in that clip.

We see other ships failing to hit Federation ships. In fact, the Federation ships that are missed fired with almost 100% accuracy if you watch the video closely. In fact there is only one occasion where we can clearly see a defiant failing to hit a ship. Although there are situations where both ships are at relatively long distance and both are in motion,
that the ships miss, but this is by far the exception and not the rule.
More out-right lies. And ever if it were not, it still completely destroys your original claim of Fed ships having "perfect targeting"

Also, you claim that Federation ships are poorly engineered because 1 shot can destroy multiple systems,
Not claimed. Observed.

but have you heard of something called the Death Star? One shot to a hole on the outside of the station destroys the entire station!
Have you heard of the Scimitar which was destroyed by a HAND GUN? Have you heard of the Enterprise-D which was similarly threateded in "Heart of Glory" or repeatedly destroyed by a love-tap to the nacell in "Cause and Effect"? Have you heard of the USS Yamato which was obliterated by a COMPUTER VIRUS? No Imperial ship has EVER shown THAT level of incompetance.

Furthermore, no Federation ship would ever be able to survive the trench run. No photon torpedo has ever displayed the ability to turn 90 degrees over a space of two meters.

Also there has been some speculation that the exhaust port was delibrately put on the Death Star to make sure Tarkin didn't get any funny ideas about aiming the thing at Coruscant.

Also, the fact that Federation ships have weak points rivaling those of the Imperial stations
Fed weak points don't "rival" Imperial ones. Fed weak
points make their ships into an out-right JOKE.

is marginalized by the fact that Imperial ships have to get extremely close to the ship with small fighters to actually hit a ship's weak points (as seen in a New Hope, where the rebels admitted in the briefing that the idea of firing a missle down the ventilation shaft was near impossible and required human skill).
To make that hit had nothing to do with proximity. It was a matter of timing it perfectly in the trench. And in regular combat, Imperial ships do NOT need to get very close. What was seen in ROTJ and other battles was POINT BLANK range, not standard range. The Trade Fed ship in TPM easily picked off the droids trying to repair Amidals's ship and the ISD in the beginning of ANH was able to take surgical strikes at the Taintive IV from much further away.

And you're also getting the canon facts wrong again. A rebel pilot exclaimed "thats impossible, even for a computer".

I also love the way you just assume that the limitations of fighters would actually apply to capital ships. Do you also assume that because real
life jet dogfights need to occur within visual range that this is the limit of Naval cruise missles?

The Enterprise-E would have no challenge scanning
the Death Star
Yes it would. The shaft has nothing to do with the Trek technobabble radiation of the week, phase or frequencies or gaseous anomolies that Picard and company are used to dealing with. They'd never be able to scan the 50 miles through the battle station's bulk to find out where that shaft leads given their sensors are blocked by natural terrain features (Who Watches the Watchers), an asteroid (The Hunted), a few meters of dirt (The High Ground, Legacy) or heavy metals (Future Imperfect). The hull of Imperial ships are impregnated with neutronium pellets so good luck scanning through that.

There are in fact 15525 known substances that are invisible to Federation sensors (Hollow Pursuits) let alone unknown substances. They couldn't detect any lifesigns in the wreckage of the battle of Wolf 359 even though we know from the DS9 pilot that Sisko and several others are alive in escape pods. And they sure as hell couldn't scan through the time ship in "A Matter of Time".

Fed ships can't even detect ships sitting over a planet's north pole (The Hunted, Peak Performance) or scan through weak magnetic fields (Final Mission, Descent) and given the enormous magnetic fields and ECM around the Death Star, any approaching Fed ship would be completely sensor blind. Electrical storms (of such low leverl that they are not a thread to humans) blind Fed ships (The Enemy) as do certain nebulae (Best of Both Worlds, Chain of Command, ST 2 TWOK) and ordinary EM radiation (Decent, Rascals).

All the E-E would detect (if anything) is hole venting gas and there are many such ports on the Death Star. While that saved their neck in ST VI, it won't help them here. By the way, in that same film, a Klingon listening post couldn't even tell the difference between the Enterprise and a Klingon freighter.

and then firing a single shot down the ventilation shaft (this precision was seen in "A Piece of the Action"
They fired at an entire CITY BLOCK under ideal
conditions, not a two-meter target. Your evaluation
of Fed targeting is vastly exaggerated.

AND "First Contact". It required no previous planning and the aiming occured near-instantaneously).
At a part of the cube that was easily a hundred meters across, not two.

As for the biological warfare thing, we're not really sure how genetically similar the "humans" from the Empire and the humans from the Federation are. Since Star Wars humans have The Force and other biological distinctions, I'd imagine they'd have diffrent DNA, and have a somewhat diffrent pathology.
AOTC demonstrated very clearly that the Force is NOT genetic, since Jedi don't marry or have children, force ability would DISAPPEAR if it were genetic. Neither Luke nor Anakin showed any force ability (apart from Anakin's fast reflexes) before they were trained.

The reason I believe that Section 31 would be able to create viruses to harm the Imperial soldiers (should they indeed have a diffrent genetic structure)
An assumption you should NOT make your do-or-die battle plans on without any conclusive evidence.

is that they've done it numerous times in the past. They did it to the Dominion.
Which the only way they could do so was having a changling on hand (Odo), closely examining him and then directly infecting him. Oh wow. They can infect one of their OWN personnel with a disease. I'm
sooooooo scared.

They created nano-probes to kill Species 8472 in a very shot period of time.
Lie. Voyager's holo-doc MODIFIED previously existing nanoprobes. Nothing new was created and section 31 had nothing to do with it.

Although nano-probes are traditionally delivered into the bloodstream, they can also be delivered en masse onto a ship via photon torpedo or phaser beam.

(Voyager: Scorpion, Scorpion Part II).
Another lie. Voyager NEVER used phasers to deliver
the nanoprobes. They needed DIRECT HITS with their
torpedos which essentially the same as direct
injection with borg tubules.

So given the presence of metaclorines in the bllod stream of all Star Wars aliens, we can conclude that there must be some significant DNA diffrences (since no such thing has ever been found in any Star Trek race).
Since we have no idea what midichlorians are, this entire paragraph is a waste of bandwidth. For all we know, midichlorians are the SW name for mitochondria. There certainly are enough similarities.

And we HAVE seen Force-like abilities (all be it in lower quality) in Trek. Can you say "Betazoids"

In "The Scorpion" we saw nano-probes designed to only attack organisms with a certain DNA sequence.
Wrong. The ONLY known difference between Holo-doc's nanoprobes and standard borg ones was the "electrochemical signature" emitted allowing the machines to be ignored by 8472's immune system.

As for The Empire building an anecdote,
Thats antidote. An anecdote is "a short account of a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature"

I find it highly unlikely since the Empire has never faced an attack from nano-probes (and probably is starting from scratch in terms of understanding the technology and being able to fight it).
In spite of the fact that SW computer tech is far more commonplace than Trek (sentient droids are sold as farm equipment, compared to Data being essentially unique).

Secondly, its difficult to imagine how the Imperial ships would actually be able to capture nano-probes and return them to the Empire considering how lethal they are. The best way to do it would be to take a member of the crew who is immune to the nanobots (due to being of a diffrent species/being a droid).
You actually say it's difficult to imagine and then go and come up with a couple possible solutions yourself? Are you even TRYING to be self-consistant?

However, immediately following any nanobot transfer, it would seem pragmatic for the Federation to transport bombs onto the enemy ship to prevent recovery).
You do that and your nanoprobes of doom won't spread very far. You've just shot your own tactic in the foot.

I realise the the Imperial ships have shields (its hard to know if they do block Federation transporters),
Why? Transporters are as blocked as often as Fed sensors are jammed. In other words, every other episode. Transporters being jammed is almost as predictable as the red-shirted ensign beaming down with Kirk, Spock and McCoy dying. And even if transporters CAN get through SW shields, they'd never make it through the ultra dense hull.

but they seem to require a few shots to a few exposed shield generators to be taken offline(as seen in the space battle at the end of "Return of the Jedi").
<sigh> The Executor lost its shields after a concentrated bombardment from the Rebel fleet as ordered by Ackbar. The fighters moved in to hit soft targets on the surface during the moment of vulnerability. I hope you don't think you're being all that creative. This argument has only been seen and refuted about a million times over the last 30 years.

Couldn't the Enterprise briefly uncloak, take down the shield generators with two perfectly placed and caclulated shots (since they would have ample time to analyse the ship's systems) to take down the shields, and then transport a bomb aboard the ship?
No, because:

1) The Enterprise DOESN'T HAVE a cloaking device.
2) Fed targeting is NOT perfect.
3) The domes are NOT shield generators.
4) Star Wars CGT sensors can pick up cloaked ships.
5) You haven't even tried to show that Fed torps are powerful enough to destroy the globes even IF your tactic were valid, which it isn't.

Because they could fire all their missles at the moment of decloaking, they could start transporting bombs onto the enemy ship and/or firing nanoprobes using phasers onto the ship within 10-20 seconds (fire-activate transporter-recloak).
Name ONE time in the entire history of trek when they've fired hundreds of torps withing a few seconds. Each time we've seen the "decloak and fire", its been ONE torp (Star Trek 3 for example)

Federation sensors have shown numerous times their ability to scan a ship (even if it has shields up) and find the precise location of a specific person or a specific object on a ship.
No, they have not. They have NEVER verifiably demonstrated the ability to target specific components of a ship. You're just repeating your refuted
conclusion from your first email.

However, in a New Hope, rebels had to send spies to acquire useful data about the Death Stars interior engineering (such as the ventillation shaft).
And when have the Federation been able to get such technical detail of a ship just from scans? In First Contact, the only reason they knew where to shoot was Picard's listening in on the Borg.

The Enterprise could have simply scanned at long distance while cloaked and found out about the ship's weapon systems. (There are quite a few examples of this in Star Trek. One good example is in "Q Who?", where the Enterprise is able to scan a planet and determine how many life signs there were, and what species they were).
And yet in that SAME episode, they couln't detect ANY weapons on the cube. Being able to scan the surface of a planet is NOT the same as scanning weapon systems despite your absurd leap in logic.

By the way, you're wrong again about the content of that episode. All they could detect from the scans of the planet was a network of roads and big holes where the cities should be. Your claim that they "determine[d] how many life signs and what species they were" is pure made up nonsense.

So its not exactly out of the picture that a small Federation ship could go up to an Imperial ship, uncloak, and transport a small bomb onto the lap of an important general (or even onto a key location such as the bridge).
Yes it is for the reasons listed above. And said bomb won't slow the Imperial ship down in the slightest. By the way, their ability to detect specific people comes largely from tracking comm badges (The High
Ground, Justice)

Although the Federation may have no phasic cloak devices at the moment, its important to note that they've already built the advice, and have scientists and engineers around who worked directly on the project.
Wrong again. Everyone on the Pegasus except Riker and Pressman died. If they had the ability to re-create the phase cloak, Pressman wouldn't have been so damn eager to recover the prototype. Pressman flat-out
rejects Riker's suggestion to destroy the Pegasus.

Secondly, many of the comments made regarding to phasic cloak still apply for regular cloak, although to a lesser degree.
More wishful thinking without one shred of evidence.

As for the Federation building up a resistance, you have to consider a few things:

1. The sheer vastness of space
Which the Empire can control far more easilyl than the
Federation given its superiority in numbers and FTL
speed.

2. The Potential number of locations to get dilithium
How many can that be given that many episodes feature the Trek powers desperatly trying to negotiate mining rights in known deposits? (Elaan of Troyius, Mirror Mirror)

part two comming shortly.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 05:53pm

part 2

Oh, I just thought I'd let you know that we're all having a great time laughing at your posts on the Stardestroyer.net bbs:

<snip link to this thread>

Some have wanted you to sign up so they could destroy your arguments in front of your virtual face while others say you would be about five seconds of entertainment before getting booted out the door.

3. The low chance of randomly stumbling onto the cloaked federation bases.
Chance has nothing to do with it. Just follow the fleeing Fed ships after the battle.

Now, as for building the fleets, we have to remember that the Federation replicators can produce a wide-variety of the materials needed to produce/repair a starship.
1) When have we EVER seen replicators used for repairs?
2) When have we ever seen replicators used to mass produce anything.
3) Where are you going to GET replicators after the Empire has taken over your infrastructure.
4) Replicators still require raw materials. They do NOT transform raw energy into materials.
5) There are plenty of examples of things replicators are incapable of accurately reproducing including but not limited to:

Warp Conduits (Phantasms)
Ribosomes (The Enemy)
Vaccines (Code of Honor)
Some unusual rain water (The Schizoid Man)
Sub-cellular sized nanites (Evolution)
Dilithium crystals (Booby Trap)
Caviar (Sins of the Father)
Computer chips (The Mind's Eye)
Certain "Scientific Equipment" (Galaxy's Child)
Latinum (The Entire DS9 series)
Magnesite a.k.a. MgCO3 (First Born)

What we DO see replicators used for is production of certain food items and an occasional hand phaser. They NEVER build ships with them. Every time we've seen a Federation ship yard, we ships being built the old fashioned way-one piece of metal being attached to another with no replicator in sight.

The fundamental material needed is dilithium, which can be found on many diffrent dilithium moons.
How many? Two? Three? Four? And are you planning to dig it up with your bare hands?

Although it would be an effective strategy for the Empire to try to secure dilithium moons, the chances of being able to find a large number of them (considering the number of potential locations) is utterly preposterous.
Given the vastly superior numbers of the Empire over the Federation, the Empire would have a much easier time finding them than the Feds would.

And you're also oversimplifying the entire concept of construction to a ridiculous degree.

Also, the Federation wouldn't have to be able to build "Entire fleets". Remember that the primary role of Federation ships would be to deliver nano-bots via phaser fire, or transport bombs aboard.
I've already shown why this tactic is completely idiotic. And even IF you were successful, the board admin has pointed out, "The idea of an insurgency attempting to dislodge an occupier through the use of bio-terror is idiotic at best, insane at worst. At best, you might convince the Empire to pull out and leave smoking barren planetoids behind where once you had thriving civilizations. And that's assuming that all of his wanking is correct, despite its various leaps in logic and magically granted abilities. Your name would go down in history as the fool who
destroyed the entire Federation."

Besdies, even to build ONE ship, you still first need to build a SHIP YARD. I can't believe you think cloakable bases are a legitimate idea. As another
denizen of Stardestroyer.net pointed out, planetside, you can't cloak the base's foundation. There would still be a HOLE IN THE GROUND where the base is.

Most existing Federation ships could be rather quickly modified to meet these ends, and thusly the bulk of the Federation bases's efforts would be focused on resupplying and reinforcing existing Federation forces.
You mean the two or three that were not obliterated or captured by the Empire? You HONESTLY think that the Imperials are just going to let you KEEP all those ships for your little insurgency?

The claim that "You can't just hide a base" is unsupported by Star Wars cannon.
The claim that you can is completely unsupported by Star Trek canon. Funny how you think you can make up anything wanktastic ability you want but forbid me to point out that its bullshit.

In the Empire Strikes Back, the Empire actually had to send tiny probes onto the surface of Hoth visually identify the base.
To search the entire galaxy. The Federtation doesn't have that much space to hide. Their pitifully slow warp drive doesn't allow them to hide on the outskirts of the Galaxy.

Had the Federation built a base on the planet, it would not have been detectable by a probe that simply takes in light (due to cloak).
Who said the probes "visually" ID the rebel base? And for the umpteenth time, the Federation does NOT have cloaking devices.

However the Federation base could have easily detected the Imperial probe (because in episodes such as "Q Who?" the Federation is able to detect the state of a planet's civilisation and also the types of organisms on the planet before they even enter the solar system).
Merely repeating your dishonest wank about the omniscience of Fed sensors.

Wouldn't the Federation be able to easily detect the probe comming and capture it, or give it false data (the later of which is considerably more fun).
No because they wouldn't be able to differentiate it from all the other incomming asteroids on Hoth, given the large amount of ionized gas upon atmospheric re-entry.

Although I believe the Empire would win early victories, I believe that clear Federation advantages in short term transportation, precision and accuracy of weapons, and advanced nano-probes would shift the war in favor of the Federation.
The Fed does NOT have advantages in any of the above. Repeatedly we saw in TNG where they had to divert the finest ship in their fleet for courier missions. Transporters are only useful when you are already at astronomically close range. You will NOT be able to launch ANY kind of attack from your hidden bases with your pitifully slow warp drive in a timely manner. All your tactics would accomplish is the Empire
reducing Earth to a smoking cinder at best and an asteroid field at worst.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 05:56pm

After thoughts:

In regards to your biowarfare idea, Imperial Stormtrooper's armor can be completely sealed to protect against nuclear, biological or chemical attacks. There is the counter to your nano-bot wank and its standard operating procedure in the Empire.

On delivering nanoprobes, yes, Voyager used torps to infect 8472 ships with nanoprobes BUT, those were BIOships, having things that actually HELP spread an infection like a circulatory system. An "old-fashioned" metal ship that used electricity wouldn't be so vulnerable.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-01 06:11pm

Darth Servo wrote:After thoughts:

In regards to your biowarfare idea, Imperial Stormtrooper's armor can be completely sealed to protect against nuclear, biological or chemical attacks. There is the counter to your nano-bot wank and its standard operating procedure in the Empire.

On delivering nanoprobes, yes, Voyager used torps to infect 8472 ships with nanoprobes BUT, those were BIOships, having things that actually HELP spread an infection like a circulatory system. An "old-fashioned" metal ship that used electricity wouldn't be so vulnerable.

Nanobot wank is the last resort of the raving idiot. Borg nanoprobes can't even penetrate human skin, which is why they need to be injected in order to assimilate someone.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-01 07:25pm

well that saves me the trouble of having to reply to this idiot. Thanks, Darth Servo.
A few points, if I may.
1. The Federation does have a cloaking device. The second Defiant was equipped with it. So assuming the can and will mass-produce it the 'decloak-and-fire' approach actually works (assuming they work against Imperial sensors, and given their performance again Trek ones...) after a fashion.
A point you to the yield of photon torpedoes (64MT due to the non-canon TNG TM)and the shield strength of the Acclamator (16TT/sec due to the canon Ep 2 ICS) to see what that would gain the Feds.
2. Following Fed ships to their bases is going to be a chore, because Imperial ships are too fucking fast. Good luck trailing a ship going 3,000c with one that has yet to be observed going less than 40,000 or so (and that's hearsay from an EU novel from a trilogy that's notorious for its minimalism and puts the peak speed of a Clone Wars Era warship at over 1 million c).
If you want to follow the Trek ships to their bases you will need to put tracking devices on them, the hard part about which is wearing their shields down without blowing the ship to smithereens in the process (I suggest TIE fighters).

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-10-01 07:52pm

Did the new DS9 Defiant get a cloaking device? I don't recall it being mentioned, seeing as how the first defiant class ship was destroyed at the Second Battle of Chin'toka.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-01 08:08pm

Well one of them defintely had it. I might have gotten the two Defiants confused but the Feds definitely have standard cloaks.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2006-10-01 10:24pm

Wasn't the first Defiant pulled into the Mirror Universe by the Tholians? It didn't have a cloaking device that I know of.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-01 11:14pm

Darth Wong wrote:Nanobot wank is the last resort of the raving idiot. Borg nanoprobes can't even penetrate human skin, which is why they need to be injected in order to assimilate someone.

Oh, I know that and you know that but this retard doesn't. I mean he actually expects to deliver this nanowank to Imperial ships by torpedo/phaser/beaming and it will magically be so contagious that it will be unstopable, being fully contagious through airborne transmission, rapidly spreading through imperial ranks like the 1918 flu epidemic.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2006-10-02 01:16am

* Cheap mass-produced sentient androids
* An FTL system capable of crossing the galaxy in days at the most

Two things which completely outstrip Federation science, but which you'll find in Star Wars junkyard. On a backwater planet like Tatooine, no less.

Really, that pretty much sums it up even better than 200gt turbolasers or what have you. Jesus, this guy is an idiot.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-10-02 02:09am

How many Photon Torpedoes can an ST ship fire in 1 second? It would take a quarter of a million Photorps to take the shields of of an Acclamator for one second, and I'd like to know how many ST ships that would take.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-10-02 04:16am

LordShaithis wrote:* Cheap mass-produced sentient androids
* An FTL system capable of crossing the galaxy in days at the most

Two things which completely outstrip Federation science, but which you'll find in Star Wars junkyard. On a backwater planet like Tatooine, no less.

Really, that pretty much sums it up even better than 200gt turbolasers or what have you. Jesus, this guy is an idiot.

To be entirely fair, the Federation has masses of sapient holograms. Why they don't make androids, even if they wouldn't be Soong type, with this science is a baffling and perplexing piece of stupid.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-10-02 07:05am

NecronLord wrote:To be entirely fair, the Federation has masses of sapient holograms. Why they don't make androids, even if they wouldn't be Soong type, with this science is a baffling and perplexing piece of stupid.

Possibly due to the trial involving Commander Maddox that gave full rights to androids.
So the Federation uses sentient holograms as slaves instead, because they can't legally put androids in dilithium mines.
Why they'd need to be sentient to mine dilithium though is beyond me.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-10-02 08:45am

Ok, the first Defiant was Constitution class and was pulled into the mirror universe, the second Defiant went to DS9 and was given a cloak by the Romulans in exchange for intel on the Dominion. That ship was destroyed at the second battle of Chin'toka by the Breen and their energy-draining weapon. It was replaced by the Sao Paulo, also Defiant class. Sisko got special dispensation to rename the ship 'Defiant'.

Darth Tanner · Post by **Darth Tanner** » 2006-10-02 08:58am

Batman wrote:Well one of them defintely had it. I might have gotten the two Defiants confused but the Feds definitely have standard cloaks.

The cloak on the first defiant (If i remember the second defiant never used it so it is not as likely to have one) was a gift from the Romulans in exchange for all Starfleet data on the gamma quadrant. There was even a Romulan officer on board for a time to operate it. As part of the agreement the cloak was not to be used on our side of the wormhole, so when the Dominion war kicked off and the wormhole sealed, either by mines or God the cloak would have been useless anyway.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-02 09:00am

NecronLord wrote:
LordShaithis wrote:* Cheap mass-produced sentient androids
* An FTL system capable of crossing the galaxy in days at the most

Two things which completely outstrip Federation science, but which you'll find in Star Wars junkyard. On a backwater planet like Tatooine, no less.

Really, that pretty much sums it up even better than 200gt turbolasers or what have you. Jesus, this guy is an idiot.
To be entirely fair, the Federation has masses of sapient holograms. Why they don't make androids, even if they wouldn't be Soong type, with this science is a baffling and perplexing piece of stupid.

Why is it perplexing? A holodeck computer is probably just too big and power-hungry to shoehorn into an android head.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-10-02 09:04am

Why is it perplexing? A holodeck computer is probably just too big and power-hungry to shoehorn into an android head.

Not really. Barclay was able to run two trekograms and a believeable environment in a computer the size of a shoebox (the grey thing he's holding - the bright yellow block is the memory module).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-02 10:26am

Bounty wrote:
Why is it perplexing? A holodeck computer is probably just too big and power-hungry to shoehorn into an android head.
Not really. Barclay was able to run two trekograms and a believeable environment in a computer the size of a shoebox (the grey thing he's holding - the bright yellow block is the memory module).

I don't know about you, but it looks to me like that box is waaaay too big to fit in a humanoid android's cranial cavity.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-10-02 10:53am

Darth Wong wrote:
Bounty wrote:
Why is it perplexing? A holodeck computer is probably just too big and power-hungry to shoehorn into an android head.
Not really. Barclay was able to run two trekograms and a believeable environment in a computer the size of a shoebox (the grey thing he's holding - the bright yellow block is the memory module).
I don't know about you, but it looks to me like that box is waaaay too big to fit in a humanoid android's cranial cavity.

That box was also running two AI's at the same time and wasn't optimised for size. I don't propose making bobblehead androids here, but if the technology needed to run a trekogram can fit into that box I don't see why with some time and effort it can't be miniaturized to squeeze into a head or a even a torso.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-10-02 11:33am

Bounty wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Bounty wrote: Not really. Barclay was able to run two trekograms and a believeable environment in a computer the size of a shoebox (the grey thing he's holding - the bright yellow block is the memory module).
I don't know about you, but it looks to me like that box is waaaay too big to fit in a humanoid android's cranial cavity.
That box was also running two AI's at the same time and wasn't optimised for size. I don't propose making bobblehead androids here, but if the technology needed to run a trekogram can fit into that box I don't see why with some time and effort it can't be miniaturized to squeeze into a head or a even a torso.

Actually the device storing two AIs was a cube around the size of a fist if I recall. The large device was meant to power it and provide a simulated galaxy for Moriarty to explore.