So many words, so little intelligence ...

[Cao Cao]

As Patrick Degan points out, Lal was a failure.

True. But the apparent ease with which Data constructed an android, presumably on his off-hours is a bit odd if the Federation were generally incapable of making them.

So little interest that Data was considered a national treasure and a legal battle was fought over Starfleet's demand to take control of him?

I meant that perhaps they lost interest after that court case; since androids could not legally be made to work while holograms could.

Why? How does he even know what's realistic? He comes from an era when they didn't even know it was possible to make automobiles.

Even an 18th century program would find buildings with no entrances, interiors that are just empty spaces, characters who repeat the same line over and over and trees floating in mid air odd, wouldn't he?

You can say all the "probably" clauses that you want, but at the end of the day, there is no real evidence as to the quality of this simulation, nor is there any evidence that Moriarty never saw through it, nor is there any evidence that it was running in real-time. Certainly nothing to contradict the simple fact that the most straightforward explanation for why they can't make more Datas is that they can't make the CPU work and fit into the head.

There is a small amount of evidence, backed up by dialogue that they can put a fully sapient AI in a small fist-sized module.
Even if it wasn't in real time (for which there's no evidence) the basic ability remains. As for why they don't, again I call into question their will to make them. While you give valid reasons for why they'd want to it'd still be illegal because of Data's case.

Though really I guess it could be overturned or ignored, but that's down to the writers being dumb and thinking holograms are cooler.

[Cao Cao]

They had to go back to the guy who created the Holo-Doc program (who, as usual in Star Trek, was a genius but also a massively maladjusted asshole) to get him a new lease on life.

Allow me to quote Futurama's Hermes Conrad. "I didn't want to knoowowow that!"[/quote]

I have the misfortune of remembering this episode.
They didn't get to the actual creator but rather a holographic recreation of him. Actually he's another version of the holodoc, fully sentient and everything but meant as a diagnostic program. But he also has his creator's personality. Except he knows he's a program. And.. well, it was just stupid.

Anyway, the reason the doc's program was degrading was apparently because he was filling himself up with misc data he didn't need (singing ability, socialising) and in the end it's solved by having the diagnostic program shut down and overlaying his holomatrix over the doctors to fix it or something.
And from then on he could evidentally fill his mind up with all the garbage data he wants.

[NecronLord]

True. But the apparent ease with which Data constructed an android, presumably on his off-hours is a bit odd if the Federation were generally incapable of making them.

Well, the motors and whatnot presumably aren't so difficult. Nor the conservation of energy violating power cells. Presumably, the difficult bit is getting the brain right. Look at B4, and Lore. They were both perfect in every way, but for the brain. Data got the brain wrong, too.

Presumably engineers and programmers able to find their ass with both hands would be able to put a non-positronic head on the same kind of body, a big box, like Moriati's, and presto. However, this does not describe Federation engineers. Competant engineers would not put a highly dangerous reactor right in the damn engineering space with no shielding between them, so that people have to make dramatic dives under slowly closing blast doors, and competant programmers wouldn't produce... well, anything the Federation uses.

[Patrick Degan]

As Patrick Degan points out, Lal was a failure.

True. But the apparent ease with which Data constructed an android, presumably on his off-hours is a bit odd if the Federation were generally incapable of making them.

Are you serious? Because Data tried to tinker together an android which subsequently irreversibly ceased to function, that means that somehow this translates into Federation capability to manufacture Soong-type androids? When all the evidence from the series shows that the Federation did not have this capability? If androids are so easy to manufacture, then why did Bruce Maddox want to disassemble Data for basic research in the hopes of replicating Soong's work?

[Darth Wong]

True. But the apparent ease with which Data constructed an android, presumably on his off-hours is a bit odd if the Federation were generally incapable of making them.

The problem is the brain, fool.

I meant that perhaps they lost interest after that court case; since androids could not legally be made to work while holograms could.

Right, that's why a Federation admiral immediately warped to the Enterprise-D when Data built Lal and demanded custody of her

Even an 18th century program would find buildings with no entrances, interiors that are just empty spaces, characters who repeat the same line over and over and trees floating in mid air odd, wouldn't he?

And what the fuck makes you think that the only way to shrink the database would be to do this? Why not just have only one or two planets that can be reached?

You can say all the "probably" clauses that you want, but at the end of the day, there is no real evidence as to the quality of this simulation, nor is there any evidence that Moriarty never saw through it, nor is there any evidence that it was running in real-time. Certainly nothing to contradict the simple fact that the most straightforward explanation for why they can't make more Datas is that they can't make the CPU work and fit into the head.

There is a small amount of evidence, backed up by dialogue that they can put a fully sapient AI in a small fist-sized module.

No, there is dialogue alone, which is evidence only if you insist upon a particular interpretation.

Even if it wasn't in real time (for which there's no evidence) the basic ability remains.

Listen you stupid asshole, I saw you pull this kind of broken-record shit in the Galactica thread and I will not allow it here. How the fuck can you claim that I must prove the negative rather than you proving that the simulation DOES run in real-time? If you are trying to establish that they can run a real-time sentient AI with no problem in a fist-sized module, you must provide the fucking EVIDENCE. And no, one of many possible interpretations of dialogue is NOT evidence.

As for why they don't, again I call into question their will to make them. While you give valid reasons for why they'd want to it'd still be illegal because of Data's case.

Bullshit. There is nothing illegal whatsoever about making androids: only treating them as property. But people can and have found ways around those kinds of rules in the past, and it sure as hell didn't stop them trying to take Lal away from Data.

Though really I guess it could be overturned or ignored, but that's down to the writers being dumb and thinking holograms are cooler.

If you want, but the fact remains that you have no evidence for your claims, and stating them as a fact is just pure broken-record idiocy which is against the rules of the forum, not to mention any kind of logic.

[Cao Cao]

Presumably engineers and programmers able to find their ass with both hands would be able to put a non-positronic head on the same kind of body, a big box, like Moriati's, and presto. However, this does not describe Federation engineers. Competant engineers would not put a highly dangerous reactor right in the damn engineering space with no shielding between them, so that people have to make dramatic dives under slowly closing blast doors, and competant programmers wouldn't produce... well, anything the Federation uses.

The Federation seems quite incapable of using it's tech effectively.
You'd think they'd at least have made non-sentient droids by now.

Are you serious? Because Data tried to tinker together an android which subsequently irreversibly ceased to function, that means that somehow this translates into Federation capability to manufacture Soong-type androids? When all the evidence from the series shows that the Federation did not have this capability? If androids are so easy to manufacture, then why did Bruce Maddox want to disassemble Data for basic research in the hopes of replicating Soong's work?

Lal's body seemed to function perfectly from her creation to her death. That's what I was referring to. Surely Data would've consumed a lot more resources and been noticed earlier if the body's construction were that difficult.
This leaves us with the positronic brain, which is clearly not easy to recreate (indeed, Data made Lal by copying his own brain) and is most likely what Maddox wanted to dissect.

So what I'm saying is, it could be possible to manufacture an android body, then place a Moriarty type holocube in it's head and (if the larger device is required) the device it plugs into could be fitted as a sort of backpack (presuming there is no space left within the body) for a primitive android.

[Solauren]

Considering how 'life like' Moritarty and Voyagers EMH got, it would appear all you'd need to do is build an android body with a standard federation computer and memory, and put in thier programming

[Cao Cao]

Right, that's why a Federation admiral immediately warped to the Enterprise-D when Data built Lal and demanded custody of her

His interest was overly personal. One could assume it in fact was, and the Federation at large remained aloof at the idea.

And what the fuck makes you think that the only way to shrink the database would be to do this? Why not just have only one or two planets that can be reached?

My example was to say that the worlds Moriarty encountered would have to be realistic and free of such errors.
As for one or two planets, wouldn't one of those have to be Earth? That alone is a ton of data.

No, there is dialogue alone, which is evidence only if you insist upon a particular interpretation.

Listen you stupid asshole, I saw you pull this kind of broken-record shit in the Galactica thread and I will not allow it here. How the fuck can you claim that I must prove the negative rather than you proving that the simulation DOES run in real-time? If you are trying to establish that they can run a real-time sentient AI with no problem in a fist-sized module, you must provide the fucking EVIDENCE. And no, one of many possible interpretations of dialogue is NOT evidence.

In that case, neither is yours. You assume it's not running in real-time. I assume it is. Why is my case worse?
Furthermore are there any concrete examples of holodeck programs not running in real time?

Bullshit. There is nothing illegal whatsoever about making androids: only treating them as property.

The Federation treats sentient holograms as property, presumably they would want to do the same with androids.

But people can and have found ways around those kinds of rules in the past, and it sure as hell didn't stop them trying to take Lal away from Data.

The state can legally take someone's child from their parents if they deem them unfit. This does not make the child property of the state.

If you want, but the fact remains that you have no evidence for your claims, and stating them as a fact is just pure broken-record idiocy which is against the rules of the forum, not to mention any kind of logic.

Dialogue that contradicts visual evidence should be thrown out, but I fail to understand why dialogue that is not disproven shouldn't be considered evidence.

[Darth Wong]

Right, that's why a Federation admiral immediately warped to the Enterprise-D when Data built Lal and demanded custody of her

His interest was overly personal. One could assume it in fact was, and the Federation at large remained aloof at the idea.

Yes, your argument seems to be based entirely on assumptions.

And what the fuck makes you think that the only way to shrink the database would be to do this? Why not just have only one or two planets that can be reached?

My example was to say that the worlds Moriarty encountered would have to be realistic and free of such errors.

So? Why does this require a huge amount of data, since he can only explore a miniscule fraction of these worlds anyway?

As for one or two planets, wouldn't one of those have to be Earth? That alone is a ton of data.

Why? It doesn't have to be remotely realistic.

Listen you stupid asshole, I saw you pull this kind of broken-record shit in the Galactica thread and I will not allow it here. How the fuck can you claim that I must prove the negative rather than you proving that the simulation DOES run in real-time? If you are trying to establish that they can run a real-time sentient AI with no problem in a fist-sized module, you must provide the fucking EVIDENCE. And no, one of many possible interpretations of dialogue is NOT evidence.

In that case, neither is yours. You assume it's not running in real-time. I assume it is. Why is my case worse?

Because you're claiming a CAPABILITY, you worthless shit-for-brains. A capability is not presumed to exist until it is disproven.

Furthermore are there any concrete examples of holodeck programs not running in real time?

See above, you stupid shit-spewing burden-of-proof evading asshole.

Bullshit. There is nothing illegal whatsoever about making androids: only treating them as property.

The Federation treats sentient holograms as property, presumably they would want to do the same with androids.

But people can and have found ways around those kinds of rules in the past, and it sure as hell didn't stop them trying to take Lal away from Data.

The state can legally take someone's child from their parents if they deem them unfit. This does not make the child property of the state.

It makes the child a ward of the state, which is close enough for Starfleet's purposes.

If you want, but the fact remains that you have no evidence for your claims, and stating them as a fact is just pure broken-record idiocy which is against the rules of the forum, not to mention any kind of logic.

Dialogue that contradicts visual evidence should be thrown out, but I fail to understand why dialogue that is not disproven shouldn't be considered evidence.

I have already pointed out TWICE that if more than one interpretation exists, you cannot force people to accept your preferred interpretation and then call that "evidence". If I have to say it one more time, you won't be around to hear it. And what about the fact that people do not speak in flawlessly literal prose all the time in real-life, hence cannot be assumed to do so in fiction? Oh yeah, that's another point you chose to simply ignore.

It is one thing to argue with my points, it is quite another to simply ignore them. If you want to repeat the broken-record bullshit that you pulled in the Galactica thread, you're going to have to find another board to do it on.

[NecronLord]

The assumption that the world has to be complete is unjustified. It just has to make everyone they meet randomly rolled up, as from a dungeons and dragons type NPC table. Same with the buildings. It only has to generate them - to pre-set limits, when Moriati et al are looking at them.

Have you ever punched 'random map' in an RTS? Same principle, but better.

[NecronLord]

The Federation seems quite incapable of using it's tech effectively.
You'd think they'd at least have made non-sentient droids by now.

It's telling that every development seems to be done by some brilliant lone scientist. Just above, the holo doc was programmed by a genius scientist. He wasn't like windows 2000 or something, with a team of hundreds of people writing him. The GCS? That was one woman's project. Data? Same...

I wonder if they actually make any developments that don't rely on lone geniuses.

[Cao Cao]

So? Why does this require a huge amount of data, since he can only explore a miniscule fraction of these worlds anyway?

Even one planet in one solar system would be a mass of data, unless it was all but barren. Which wouldn't make for a great experience.

Why? It doesn't have to be remotely realistic.

Moriarty knows Earth is still around, that a lot of time has passed, that humans travel the stars and was offered books to read by Picard. Which given his inquisitive personality he would most certainly have read (this was before Picard realised he was trapped in a simulation too).
It would have to be at least some degree of realistic to fool Moriarty.

Because you're claiming a CAPABILITY, you worthless shit-for-brains. A capability is not presumed to exist until it is disproven.

I'm only claiming that these holodeck characters are running in real time just like we've seen every other holodeck program do.

It makes the child a ward of the state, which is close enough for Starfleet's purposes.

Which would save them from legal troubles.
But it would be a lot harder to find a loophole if they wanted to put that android in a dilithium mine.

I have already pointed out TWICE that if more than one interpretation exists, you cannot force people to accept your preferred interpretation and then call that "evidence". If I have to say it one more time, you won't be around to hear it.

My interpretation is backed up by precident too though (in that all holodeck programs we ever see run in real time). I don't feel it's enough to assume the program is not in real time so it can lead to the satisfactory conclusion of the Federation being incapable of making miniature devices that could be placed in a sentient android.

[Darth Wong]

Even one planet in one solar system would be a mass of data, unless it was all but barren. Which wouldn't make for a great experience.

Bullshit. The entire planet doesn't have to be modeled in advance.

Moriarty knows Earth is still around, that a lot of time has passed, that humans travel the stars and was offered books to read by Picard. Which given his inquisitive personality he would most certainly have read (this was before Picard realised he was trapped in a simulation too).
It would have to be at least some degree of realistic to fool Moriarty.

How do you even know it fooled Moriarty? Did you see him arrive on Earth in his simulation? How do you know the simulation didn't crash 10 minutes after it was started? Has every single piece of Federation technology worked perfectly, with no unforeseen complications even after years of unsupervised operation? How many fucking idiotic leaps in logic can you rely on?

Because you're claiming a CAPABILITY, you worthless shit-for-brains. A capability is not presumed to exist until it is disproven.

I'm only claiming that these holodeck characters are running in real time just like we've seen every other holodeck program do.

Those other holodeck programs run on a full-sized computer, you goddamned idiot.

It makes the child a ward of the state, which is close enough for Starfleet's purposes.

Which would save them from legal troubles.
But it would be a lot harder to find a loophole if they wanted to put that android in a dilithium mine.

Enlisted military personnel, not dilithium miners. Only an idiot would use such an expensive device as unskilled labour.

I have already pointed out TWICE that if more than one interpretation exists, you cannot force people to accept your preferred interpretation and then call that "evidence". If I have to say it one more time, you won't be around to hear it.

My interpretation is backed up by precident too though (in that all holodeck programs we ever see run in real time).

Apples and oranges, dipshit. Those holodeck programs are running on a totally DIFFERENT kind of computer.

I don't feel it's enough to assume the program is not in real time so it can lead to the satisfactory conclusion of the Federation being incapable of making miniature devices that could be placed in a sentient android.

I don't give a fuck what you "feel". You are making an assertion of capability, therefore YOU must provide the evidence instead of mindlessly repeating yourself or introducing red-herrings such as the starship computer when we're talking about the little yellow cube. We have fucking RULES on this forum and you are pushing the boundaries of my patience. When Moriarty was created in TNG, the power drain was noticeable on a goddamned Galaxy-class starship. The act of creating a sentient AI is obviously non-trivial, and just saying that it can be done at will and then packed away in a self-contained fist-sized box despite initially requiring the resources of a Galaxy class starship is not enough by a long shot.

[Batman]

The holodeck programs run in realtime because they have to otherwise otherwise human users can't properly interact with them. They ALSO have massive facilities to run in realtime on. Neither is true true for Moriarty's miniature holo-universe. The thing can run one one qadrillionth real time and Moriarty would never notice because so would he.

[Joe Momma]

I know there are already plenty of good responses to the whole lame-ass bioweapon arguments, but I have a sudden urge to kick the dead horse...

Nanobot wank is the last resort of the raving idiot. Borg nanoprobes can't even penetrate human skin, which is why they need to be injected in order to assimilate someone.

Many common illnesses are passed through absorption into the body via mucus membranes, no injection or even direct physical contact needed. What kind of dipshit would use a bioweapon that is less contagious than the common fucking cold or a typical flu? Every poor sick bastard that ever sneezed on a doorknob is a mightier biowarrior than the dreaded Borg, apparently.

It should also be pointed out that the Changelings were uniquely vulnerable to that form of warfare because all of their members regularly conjugate in an extremely physically intimate fashion, so much so that they become a single biomass for that period of time. That's a lot different from a bunch of physically isolated starship crews. I realize that's patently obvious to everyone in this thread already, but obviously things like this need to be spelled out to some yutzes.

-- Joe Momma

[Darth Wong]

What is it with brain-damaged morons who think that "I am capable of doing this" and "I am not capable of doing this" carry equal burdens of proof? If I say that I can deadlift 1000 lbs and you doubt me, should I say "prove I can't"?

[Dark Hellion]

What is it with brain-damaged morons who think that "I am capable of doing this" and "I am not capable of doing this" carry equal burdens of proof? If I say that I can deadlift 1000 lbs and you doubt me, should I say "prove I can't"

Yah, everyone knows you can lift 2000lbs easily!
But, just because we seem to be bitching about general ignorance here, why is it so hard for people to understand just how huge an order of magnitude or firepower difference is? It seems to be a mathematically simple concept, and yet you see people who don't get that because Wars or 40K or the Foundation has a 3-5 order of magnitude firepower difference over Trek, it means that their ships can literally operate with impunity in the Alpha Quadrant. It is almost depressing that people cannot comprehend that being a thousand times more powerful means you literally need fleets to take on single craft.

[Patrick Degan]

Are you serious? Because Data tried to tinker together an android which subsequently irreversibly ceased to function, that means that somehow this translates into Federation capability to manufacture Soong-type androids? When all the evidence from the series shows that the Federation did not have this capability? If androids are so easy to manufacture, then why did Bruce Maddox want to disassemble Data for basic research in the hopes of replicating Soong's work?

Lal's body seemed to function perfectly from her creation to her death.

Her death was due entirely to the failure of the brain componnent, which controlled the entire body. Without which it was nothing more than a rather complex wind-up doll with a busted mainspring.

That's what I was referring to. Surely Data would've consumed a lot more resources and been noticed earlier if the body's construction were that difficult. This leaves us with the positronic brain, which is clearly not easy to recreate (indeed, Data made Lal by copying his own brain) and is most likely what Maddox wanted to dissect.

Then I'll make this rather simple for you, shall I:

Where are all the Federation androids?

[Batman]

It is a mathematically simple concept (and coming from me that's saying something). The ignorance is utter and complete, either through complete lack of understanding thanks to never having had/having slept through any science classes worth mentioning, or it's willful and intentional (that'd be Darkstar and his ilk).
The fact that said math/science ignorance for the former means they can't tell absurdly farcial firepower numbers from reasonable ones sure doesn't help.

[Ender]

What were the name of those repair droids that ended up being sentient? Its on the tip of my tongue, but I can't recall it right now.

For me, the real question is where are all the nonsentient robots. We are building them left and right here today, where are they inthe future?

[Batman]

Exocomps, 'The Quality of Life'.

[Noble Ire]

What were the name of those repair droids that ended up being sentient? Its on the tip of my tongue, but I can't recall it right now.

Exocomps, I believe.

For me, the real question is where are all the nonsentient robots. We are building them left and right here today, where are they inthe future?

Perhaps they were relegated to sectors of heavy, highly hazardous industry, a part of Star Trek we rarely, if ever, see (of course, they might not exist there, either). Certainly, they should have been able to create them for far different roles, but that would invariably lead to a reduction of jobs for the people, something that wouldn't exactly mesh with the Federation's brand of Communism. I have no idea why the other factions of the AQ wouldn't use them, though.

[Aaron]

Exocomps, 'The Quality of Life'.

Yeah but even they turned out to be sentient by the end of the episode. It seems that the Federation can't create computers or robots without them getting away from them. Even the Enterprise computer eventually created a baby.

[Aaron]

Exocomps, 'The Quality of Life'.

Yeah but even they turned out to be sentient by the end of the episode. It seems that the Federation can't create computers or robots without them getting away from them. Even the Enterprise computer eventually created a baby.

Damn! Didn't notice that Ender actually asked for the sentient repair bots. Sorry Batman.

[Batman]

Don't worry about it.
And I think that episode supports what Mike said about the Fed's scientific society-one single scientist developed artificial intelligence in her tools. By accident.
And from all appearences, nobody bothered to follow up on this. Common theme for Trek but still...