Discussion of proposed new arguments

[Surlethe]

My oh my... If the Feds had this much firepower per ship, why did they ever sweat one Borg cube?

Why, clearly, Lord Poe, the Borg are much more powerful than we ever suspected them to be.

[Kane Starkiller]

Of course DiCenso forgets that there is a scene change between start of fire and end and we have no idea how much time actually elapsed.
This is just typical of fanatic Trekkies to obsess over an ambiguous example but completley ignore all those times when we see solar plasma destroying or threatning ships like in "Redemption", "Descent", "Shadows and symbols" and "Relics".

[Darth Servo]

Firepower from "Whom Gods destroy"

"The Paradise Syndrome" shows Spock trying to split into pieces an asteroid stated to be nearly the size of Earth's moon using phasers after failing to deflect it sufficiently using the ship's deflector screens. Even considering that he was attempting to take advantage of a "weak spot" in the asteroid, as well as the asteroid being somewhat less than actually moon-sized, this would require zettajoules of imparted energy if not yottajoules to pull off - i.e., the equivalent of gigatons to teratons of TNT. The actual effect achieved is somewhat less impressive; the first normal phaser blast used on the asteroid produces a splash of glow about a third the diameter of the asteroid; a full broadside with the phasers only causes a small square of the asteroid to glow molten red.

++http://www.starfleetjedi.net/Square_Blast.jpg

Give me a break. You can tell just from the size of the phasers comparative to the asteroid that the rock isn't anywhere near the size of the moon.

[Darth Wong]

Of course DiCenso forgets that there is a scene change between start of fire and end and we have no idea how much time actually elapsed.
This is just typical of fanatic Trekkies to obsess over an ambiguous example but completley ignore all those times when we see solar plasma destroying or threatning ships like in "Redemption", "Descent", "Shadows and symbols" and "Relics".

Their modus operandi is to attempt to "contradict" a "low" example with a "high" one, rather than attempting to explain how both could have happened. That's why they don't ever really explain why no Starfleet captain ever has any doubt that a blast of solar plasma would wipe out his ship, or even a Borg ship; they tell themselves that you're "biased", even if they can't really show anything that you're doing which is technically wrong, so they conclude that it's OK for them to use totally ridiculous tactics in return.

[Lord Poe]

Their modus operandi is to attempt to "contradict" a "low" example with a "high" one, rather than attempting to explain how both could have happened. That's why they don't ever really explain why no Starfleet captain ever has any doubt that a blast of solar plasma would wipe out his ship, or even a Borg ship; they tell themselves that you're "biased", even if they can't really show anything that you're doing which is technically wrong, so they conclude that it's OK for them to use totally ridiculous tactics in return.

Isn't it funny how the post-ICS Trektards scream that the ICS books are non-canon, and shouldn't be acknowledged whatsover, meanwhile they're ramping up Trek firepower to ridiculous levels never seen pre-ICS?

[Batman]

Where do Dicenso's emitter numbers come from, why are they related to firepower (I sure as hell can't recall anybody ever mentioning that on-screen) and how does phasers doing impressive things to rock translate into measurable firepower as they can happily rely on NDF to do so?
And at 222MT/sec, the Fed's need in excess of 72,000 Galaxies continuously firing on a single Acclamator to overcome its shields. Do these bozos even realise the MAGNITUDE of the power difference?
No wait don't answer that. I should know better by now.
And is it me or did this Dicenso bozo use MT (energy) and TW (power) interchangeably?

[Lord Poe]

The "Masks" thing is a good example of Trekkie bullshit; if the beam was anywhere near as powerful as they say, it would have created shockwaves at the point of impact which shattered huge chunks of ice and sent them flying away. But of course, they wouldn't know that because it simply never occurred to them; their comprehension of science is that bad.

Maybe Fed phasers have a special "touchy-feely" setting so it destroys something in a less violent way than the barbarians in Star Wars do?

[Darth Servo]

Maybe Fed phasers have a special "touchy-feely" setting so it destroys something in a less violent way than the barbarians in Star Wars do?

I knew Star Trek was taking political correctness to new heights but...

Phasers. For the starship captain in touch with his inner feminine self.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Maybe Fed phasers have a special "touchy-feely" setting so it destroys something in a less violent way than the barbarians in Star Wars do?

I knew Star Trek was taking political correctness to new heights but...

Phasers. For the starship captain in touch with his inner feminine self.

Next thing you know, the phaser beams will be pink instead of blue or orange

[OmegaGuy]

Has anyone mentioned the argument that Federation ships can engage at ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers yet?

[mr friendly guy]

Has anyone mentioned the argument that Federation ships can engage at ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers yet?

I don't remember so. However in rare occasions don't they engage at that range? The fallacy comes when its assume they can do it all the time especially when observation doesn't agree. So its best to assume that they can only do it under special circumstances.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Maybe Fed phasers have a special "touchy-feely" setting so it destroys something in a less violent way than the barbarians in Star Wars do?

I knew Star Trek was taking political correctness to new heights but...

Phasers. For the starship captain in touch with his inner feminine self.

Next thing you know, the phaser beams will be pink instead of blue or orange

I can engineer that for you, but it'll be for my 'pump a shitload of energy into the target and blow it apart old-skool-style' Blast Phaser to make a point

[Coyote]

I'd like to see other facets of ST vs SW compared, since it is a non-argument about military pwnzzorship. I was thinking last night that a nice corporate competition between the Trade Federation and the Ferengi Alliance over the cornering of markets, acquisition of profit, and crushing the competition into an eventual hostile buyout might be fun.

Military might would not factor in at all, since this would be a shareholder, boardroom, advertising and corporate takeover type fight not a combat slugfest (since the Trade Fed's droids would rape the Ferengi).

A similar 'contest' between the unsavory elements (Star Trek smugglers and scum vs. Hutt crimelords) would be a total Hutt ownfest.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'd like to see other facets of ST vs SW compared, since it is a non-argument about military pwnzzorship. I was thinking last night that a nice corporate competition between the Trade Federation and the Ferengi Alliance over the cornering of markets, acquisition of profit, and crushing the competition into an eventual hostile buyout might be fun.

Military might would not factor in at all, since this would be a shareholder, boardroom, advertising and corporate takeover type fight not a combat slugfest (since the Trade Fed's droids would rape the Ferengi).

A similar 'contest' between the unsavory elements (Star Trek smugglers and scum vs. Hutt crimelords) would be a total Hutt ownfest.

There is the problem that the TF could probably buy out the Ferengi with it's profits quite easily .

The Corporate sector was far smaller than the TF (As well as having a fraction of the military power or induatrial ability), and was still in charge of hundreds of systems that it mined for resources, making it larger than the Federation (Which is larger than the Ferengi).

[Darth Wong]

The Ferengi would be harmless in any capitalistic environment where they are accustomed to aggressive business practices. Like Amway, they experience their greatest income growth when they explore new markets that are unprepared for their swindling. Amway's growth always slopes downward once people get wise to their bullshit.

The Federation and some of the other traditionally closed economies in the region are perfect hunting grounds for Ferengi traders because they're gullible, passive, and haven't yet learned how to properly regulate business practices. If the Ferengi tried to swindle the Trade Federation, they'd probably find a fleet blockading their homeworld in short order. The Trade Federation didn't built that droid army and fleet just for Naboo; they've used them before, on business partners who reneged on their agreements. The Trade Federation practices what the Jedi refer to as "aggressive negotiations", and they know that business contracts are worthless without enforcement.

[FTeik]

I'd like to see other facets of ST vs SW compared, since it is a non-argument about military pwnzzorship. I was thinking last night that a nice corporate competition between the Trade Federation and the Ferengi Alliance over the cornering of markets, acquisition of profit, and crushing the competition into an eventual hostile buyout might be fun.

Military might would not factor in at all, since this would be a shareholder, boardroom, advertising and corporate takeover type fight not a combat slugfest (since the Trade Fed's droids would rape the Ferengi).

Perhaps we should split this in Early-TNG-Ferengi and Late-TNG/DS9-Ferengi VS the TradeFed.

Wasn't it just a Cardie-freighter Maxwell destroyed in "The Wounded"? Its been a while since I saw that episode.

[OmegaGuy]

Another common argument I hear is that the Force only works on weak - minded people and is useless on anyone with a strong will, based on Obi-Wan's comment in episode IV.

[Ghost Rider]

Another common argument I hear is that the Force only works on weak - minded people and is useless on anyone with a strong will, based on Obi-Wan's comment in episode IV.

Then tell them to watch the fucking prequels. This is hardly an argument.

[OmegaGuy]

Well yeah but if something as stupid as 'SW ships have no shields' gets to be included then this should be too.

[Darth Wong]

Another common argument I hear is that the Force only works on weak - minded people and is useless on anyone with a strong will, based on Obi-Wan's comment in episode IV.

I don't think it's a matter of "will", but rather, susceptibility to suggestion. And I love the way Trekkies assume all Starfleet officers are strong against such things. Why the fuck should we assume that?

[OmegaGuy]

Another thing I hear often (mainly on CBR) is that the only part of the ICS that is actually canon is the artwork, because that was the only thing approved by Lucasfilm. (No one has given a source for this claim AFAIK).

[Darth Wong]

Another thing I hear often (mainly on CBR) is that the only part of the ICS that is actually canon is the artwork, because that was the only thing approved by Lucasfilm. (No one has given a source for this claim AFAIK).

That's so fucking stupid that it makes the "Star Wars ships have no shields" argument seem brilliant by comparison.

[OmegaGuy]

Yeah but if an argument is common it should be included, right?

[Darth Wong]

Yeah but if an argument is common it should be included, right?

That's common anywhere but CBR? CBR is the worthless shitstain of the Internet, where kiddies present to be adults. It's like Lord of the Flies over there. These are the same kind of precocious little fuckwits who argue with their biology teachers about evolution.

[OmegaGuy]

Well I also heard it once on SHC.