Saruman vs. Count Dooku

[Vendetta]

Clearing up What the Maiar can Do:

There are several factors that limit the Maiar we see in The Lord of the Rings (and the three we don't, the other Istari)

1. The longer a Maiar/Valar spends in one form, the harder it is for them to reshape themselves. This mainly applies to the Balrog, which would have been sealed under the moutains since the first wars on Middle Earth. When it was destroyed in that form, it would have been unable to reform itself. (This is what happened to Morgoth in the end, he was unable to take a new shape after he was finally overthrown)

2. The Istari had the majority of their memory, power, and capability sealed away from them when they were sent to Middle Earth. that's Saruman and Gandalf as far as the story is concerned (Radagast too, and the two we never hear of). The main part of their role lies in their ability to lead and control people, and their wisdom to do so correctly. (Gandalf has Narya as well, one of the Three, which is one of the reasons why he's more powerful than the others, he just doesn't overtly use it or he'd risk exposing it to Sauron)

3. Sauron locked much of his power in the One Ring. Without it, he only has his minions to do most of the work.

At the height of their power, the Maiar were capable of shaping themselves at will, in this state, killing them would do nothing of much use, as they could reform right behind you the next millisecond. Some of the Maiar never took corporeal form.

As for the individual battle at hand, Saruman's biggest asset would be his ability to control others, through trickery and sheer force of will, The fight would never take place, as Dooku would be Chief Minion in no time flat.

[AdmiralKanos]

For reference the clones would loose horribly against ents if they were at the equivalent tech level, and in the same numbers as the orcs were.

What kind of rebuttal is that? Take away the clonetroopers' high-powered weapons and they're no better than orcs? Gee, why don't you just blindfold them and tie their hands behind their backs?

[AdmiralKanos]

Honestly, a single clonetrooper with an E-Web would have annihilated the Ent charge by himself, even if there really WERE hundreds or thousands of them.

Um, sounds a little like an over estimation of an E-web to me...

Based on what? Your intuition?

In the 19th century, infantry charges of 30,000 men were repulsed by just ten Maxim heavy machine guns. Yes, that's 3,000 attackers for each HMG, and the attackers went down. How it is so unreasonable to imagine that a thousand slow-moving trees would get mowed down by an E-Web which is powerful enough to blast through military-grade armour plating, and which comes with a portable generator for nearly unlimited ammunition?

[Sea Skimmer]

An lone E-WEB could probably defeat an all out Ent attack. Though if they came from all sides and could shelter behind the walls it would become difficult to get them all before one smashes the lone clone with a rock. 1000 Ents, far more the book suggests attacked would be taken to pieces attack from one axis.

I don't see what the point of this is though. One side has better minions thanks to tens of thousands of year better technology. But this was meant to be a battle between individuals, on a planet containing only the two.

The Ent's didn't face him in combat, so a comparison of abilities is pointless.

[Captain Cyran]

Wow....first off, did we manage to forget that the Ents destroyed the dam and swamped Sarumon's tower, I think that would do a damned good job of taking out any E-Web.

As another thing...this is supposed to be about....what again? Oh yeah, Sarumon vs. Dooku. Stay RELATIVELY on topic eh?

[white_rabbit]

Ents, far more the book suggests attacked would be taken to pieces attack from one axis.

Not just ents, Huorns got involved as well. think..evil Ents

How it is so unreasonable to imagine that a thousand slow-moving trees would get mowed down by an E-Web

I presume these are the film ents you mean, because the Ents in the novels where not particularly slow moving

portable generator for nearly unlimited ammunition?

With about an hours worth of continous fire possible.

So on a flat plain, with a thousand ents charging, who are apparently going to be stopped cold by this lone weapon ?

with its ROF being ?

[AdmiralKanos]

I presume these are the film ents you mean, because the Ents in the novels where not particularly slow moving

Oh, the novel gave numbers for their walking speed? Could you quote those, please?

So on a flat plain, with a thousand ents charging, who are apparently going to be stopped cold by this lone weapon ?

with its ROF being ?

Even if its rate of fire is just 360 rpm (similar to the two-shot bursts fired from E-11's), an hour worth of continuous fire is more than twenty thousand shots (and who said it's only good for an hour?). Stick one in an elevated position and no Ent gets within a kilometre of the building.

Remember that it would only take one hit to kill an Ent; this thing can punch a hole through a durasteel plate.

As Sea Skimmer says, this is really an off-topic tangent, but I find it incredible that you doubt the ability of an extremely powerful heavy automatic weapon to take down a bunch of lumbering trees.

[Crayz9000]

I presume these are the film ents you mean, because the Ents in the novels where not particularly slow moving

Oh, the novel gave numbers for their walking speed? Could you quote those, please?

The book just says that an Ent is over 14 feet tall, and walks with long, deliberate strides; it also hints that what might be a long distance to a hobbit is a short walk to an Ent.

[Darth Wong]

I presume these are the film ents you mean, because the Ents in the novels where not particularly slow moving

Oh, the novel gave numbers for their walking speed? Could you quote those, please?

The book just says that an Ent is over 14 feet tall, and walks with long, deliberate strides; it also hints that what might be a long distance to a hobbit is a short walk to an Ent.

Is there a figure for walking-speed in there somewhere? "Deliberate" strides are slow. I doubt an Ent moves any faster than an adult human on the run.

I don't know why anyone in his right mind could dispute this. A single stormtrooper with an E-Web vs a thousand Ents on a flat plain would be a short battle, resulting in a thousand charred firewood corpses and one stormie with a really cool story to tell his buddies back at the base.

[Crayz9000]

Is there a figure for walking-speed in there somewhere? "Deliberate" strides are slow. I doubt an Ent moves any faster than an adult human on the run.

'Hm! Here we are!' said Treebeard, breaking his long silence. 'I have brought you about seventy thousand entstrides, but what that comes to in the measurement of your land I do not know.'

The trip in question took at least half a day, since it was midday when the hobbits encountered Treebeard and evening when Treebeard reached the ent-house. They went part of the way through Fangorn Forest and up a mountain, which I'd estimate to be several miles.

I have no idea how fast an Ent could go at a run...

I don't know why anyone in his right mind could dispute this. A single stormtrooper with an E-Web vs a thousand Ents on a flat plain would be a short battle, resulting in a thousand charred firewood corpses and one stormie with a really cool story to tell his buddies back at the base.

There's the chance that the Ents could surround the stormtrooper and attack him from all directions at once; they can also use boulders as projectile weapons if necessary. It all depends on how it's situated.

[Darth Wong]

The trip in question took at least half a day, since it was midday when the hobbits encountered Treebeard and evening when Treebeard reached the ent-house. They went part of the way through Fangorn Forest and up a mountain, which I'd estimate to be several miles.

Since a human can cover 4-6 miles per hour at a brisk pace, I don't see how this should be too impressive.

I have no idea how fast an Ent could go at a run...

I doubt that they can run at all, at least not in the manner of a human. Their scale and the strength of wood severely limits their ability to do this without injury.

There's the chance that the Ents could surround the stormtrooper and attack him from all directions at once;

Irrelevant on a flat plain, where he can kill them from several kilometres away. His smart move at Isengard would be to situate himself on top of the tower and mow down individual groups with long-range automatic fire, swivelling around to make sure no one gets too close from any direction. One must also question the Ents' resolve after seeing the first hail of red bolts rip apart their comrades like so much tissue paper.

they can also use boulders as projectile weapons if necessary. It all depends on how it's situated.

Since they can't launch them anywhere near as far as an E-Web can fire its blaster bolts, this won't matter. If a horde of Ents is already within 50 metres of the stormie, he's in trouble. But if they have to approach him across open fields, they're toast.

[Howedar]

Someone please provide evidence that there were "hundreds or thousands" of Ents in the battle. I think that the few dozen seen in the movie was fairly accurate.

[Robert Treder]

And not to say that he could have stopped the clone army (he couldn't), but remember that Dooku did want the clones to win, so the problem here is sort of irrelevant.

Why would he have cared who won? He just wanted a war to start, and that would have happened regardless of the outcome.

I don't suppose it would really matter to him who won the battle, you're right, but he was in theory on Sidious' side, and Sidious obviously wanted for the clones to win in the end, if not in this battle in particular.

This is getting off topic (though the topic is dead, IMO), but I figured that Sidious' plan was to create a seperatist movement, create a secret clone army, use the conflict of the seperatist movement to gain power, and then use the clone army to topple the seperatists and maintain order in his Empire. So he would definitely want the clones to win.

[Durandal]

And not to say that he could have stopped the clone army (he couldn't), but remember that Dooku did want the clones to win, so the problem here is sort of irrelevant.

Why would he have cared who won? He just wanted a war to start, and that would have happened regardless of the outcome.

I don't suppose it would really matter to him who won the battle, you're right, but he was in theory on Sidious' side, and Sidious obviously wanted for the clones to win in the end, if not in this battle in particular.

This is getting off topic (though the topic is dead, IMO), but I figured that Sidious' plan was to create a seperatist movement, create a secret clone army, use the conflict of the seperatist movement to gain power, and then use the clone army to topple the seperatists and maintain order in his Empire. So he would definitely want the clones to win.

Well whatever.

[Sea Skimmer]

Someone please provide evidence that there were "hundreds or thousands" of Ents in the battle. I think that the few dozen seen in the movie was fairly accurate.

The only indication of numbers is that Merry and Pippin though there where about 50 of them on the march to attack. There being other groups would seem unlikely as they where all coming from one place and marched directly to attack.

[Vendetta]

Ents and Huorns can move quite quickly at need.

An army of Huorns covered the distance between Isengard and Helm's Deep in a single night in the book. That's about 100 miles in a matter of hours.

The Huorns are numerous enough that the army is indistinguishable from a fairly large forest.

A single stormtrooper's life would be dependent on how fast he realised that the Huorns weren't actually trees.

[Pcm979]

A single stormtrooper's life would be dependent on how fast he realised that the Huorns weren't actually trees.

It might be a giveaway when they walk towards him.

[Vendetta]

Stormtroopers have been known to fall prey to primary school tricks (witness tapping one on the opposite shoulder in Jedi). suspiciously mobile trees would probably pass without undue notice..

Then they'd actually have to HIT the trees...

[Durandal]

Ents and Huorns can move quite quickly at need.

An army of Huorns covered the distance between Isengard and Helm's Deep in a single night in the book. That's about 100 miles in a matter of hours.

The Huorns are numerous enough that the army is indistinguishable from a fairly large forest.

A single stormtrooper's life would be dependent on how fast he realised that the Huorns weren't actually trees.

Assuming it took 6 hours, that's less than 20mph. Not incredibly impressive.

[Ubiquitous]

A few pointers:

-Gandalf and Saruman were sent to Middle Earth to guide the YR into fighting the darkness. However, they were not instructed to directly involve themselves in the conflict. Ref: The Silmarillion.

-Gandalf and Saruman are demi-Gods. They live for as long as God wishes them to. When Saruman was 'killed' he merely lost his physical form - his spirit lived on. This is why Sauron could come back from his 'death' at the end of the Second Age. He is a Maia just like G + S.

-Gandalf is not designed to fight wars, he is designed to impress and guide the younger races, thus his powers are not designed to crush huge armies of orcs. However, the fact that he defeated a Balrog of Morgoth speaks for itself: the Balrog destroyed the entire host of Elves and Dwarfs that dwelt in Moria single handedly.

-Dooku could hit Gandalf with a lightsabre and strike him down, but he could never defeat Gandalf. It is hardly fair putting a mortal against an entity sent by God.

[Pcm979]

A few pointers:

-Gandalf and Saruman were sent to Middle Earth to guide the YR into fighting the darkness. However, they were not instructed to directly involve themselves in the conflict. Ref: The Silmarillion.

Right.

-Gandalf and Saruman are demi-Gods. They live for as long as God wishes them to. When Saruman was 'killed' he merely lost his physical form - his spirit lived on. This is why Sauron could come back from his 'death' at the end of the Second Age. He is a Maia just like G + S.

Sauron was only able to come back from the dead because he had invested so much of himself in the Ring. Once it was destroyed, he was no longer able to interfere in the physical world at all. That's a defeat, if you ask me.

-Gandalf is not designed to fight wars, he is designed to impress and guide the younger races, thus his powers are not designed to crush huge armies of orcs. However, the fact that he defeated a Balrog of Morgoth speaks for itself: the Balrog destroyed the entire host of Elves and Dwarfs that dwelt in Moria single handedly.

Gandalf>Balrorg>1000+ Orcs does not translate. Lets say that a tank has killed 1000+ people; If I shoot the tank with a bazooka and knock it off a ledge, does that equate with being able to kill 1000+ people?

-Dooku could hit Gandalf with a lightsabre and strike him down, but he could never defeat Gandalf. It is hardly fair putting a mortal against an entity sent by God.

The issue is Dooku vs. Saruman, and Saruman would not be given a new body by the Valar if he was killed. In fact, he wasn't. So if Dooku could kill Saruman's body, then Saruman would be out of the fight. Therefore he would be defeated. (Might I point out that Emperor Palpatine's "soul" was still alive in the dark side after his death, but was unable to return to the real world, and therefore defeated. The same holds true in Saruman's case.)

[Darth Wong]

-Gandalf is not designed to fight wars, he is designed to impress and guide the younger races, thus his powers are not designed to crush huge armies of orcs. However, the fact that he defeated a Balrog of Morgoth speaks for itself: the Balrog destroyed the entire host of Elves and Dwarfs that dwelt in Moria single handedly.

So? One man with a machine-gun could kill a thousand Orcs, and one man with a sniper rifle could kill the guy with a machine gun.

[Exonerate]

Dooku wins, because Saruman is forbidden to use his powers on him.

[Rathark]

Has anyone tried to calculate the power Saruman needed to generate the storm in the movie verion of FotR? I made some rough estimates, and the answer would be roughly in the high gigawatt / low terawatt range. This was just for the windpower alone, mind you. The equation for measuring windpower is:

P = (v^3) * A * .6

where:

P = power in watts
v = velicity of wind
A = cross-sectional area of the wind front (a VERY hazy estimate)
.6 = desnity of air halved (v^3 is halved, but keeping just one constant in the equation simplifies things)

And yes, I know - the movie Saruman is not the same as the literary Saruman.

[AdmiralKanos]

Has anyone tried to calculate the power Saruman needed to generate the storm in the movie verion of FotR? I made some rough estimates, and the answer would be roughly in the high gigawatt / low terawatt range.

Your formula for windpower is based on acceleration/deceleration relative to zero. This assumes he has to take all of the air in the area and accelerate it to high velocity. In effect, manufacturing the whole storm out of stagnant air, when he might have simply redirected a stormfront that already existed.

I can't see it being a simple matter of brute force; if it were, then Gandalf could have resisted it. Saruman must have taken advantage of something natural, hence the power of the storm was great enough that Gandalf couldn't even make a dent.