Discussion of proposed new arguments

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-06 11:47am

OmegaGuy wrote:Well I also heard it once on SHC.

Is that another comicbook site? If so, it's just the same shit in a different pile. Seriously, comic-book fans are like the worst Star Trek fans, but dumber. Some of the comics (er- "graphic novels") seem like really well-written and thought-provoking literature ... when you're 12.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-10-06 11:49am

Well if you don't want to include it that's okay, I was just pointing it out.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-06 03:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Ferengi would be harmless in any capitalistic environment where they are accustomed to aggressive business practices. Like Amway, they experience their greatest income growth when they explore new markets that are unprepared for their swindling. Amway's growth always slopes downward once people get wise to their bullshit.

The Federation and some of the other traditionally closed economies in the region are perfect hunting grounds for Ferengi traders because they're gullible, passive, and haven't yet learned how to properly regulate business practices. If the Ferengi tried to swindle the Trade Federation, they'd probably find a fleet blockading their homeworld in short order. The Trade Federation didn't built that droid army and fleet just for Naboo; they've used them before, on business partners who reneged on their agreements. The Trade Federation practices what the Jedi refer to as "aggressive negotiations", and they know that business contracts are worthless without enforcement.

I can just imagine the Ferengi running around like chickens without their heads screaming "Our Profits! Our Profits!"

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-07 03:48pm

Darth Wong wrote:
OmegaGuy wrote:Another common argument I hear is that the Force only works on weak - minded people and is useless on anyone with a strong will, based on Obi-Wan's comment in episode IV.
I don't think it's a matter of "will", but rather, susceptibility to suggestion. And I love the way Trekkies assume all Starfleet officers are strong against such things. Why the fuck should we assume that?

Besides, Obi-wan's statement was ONLY referring to telepathic suggestion. A strong will won't stop a Jedi/Sith from levitating a Fed officer and flinging him against the wall.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-10-08 12:51pm

Two more arguments:

1. Jedi and light - side users don't use powers like Force Choke.

2. Turbolasers can't be that powerful because the cutscene in KOTOR showing the bombardment of Taris didn't show large explosions.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-10-08 01:09pm

OmegaGuy wrote:Two more arguments:

1. Jedi and light - side users don't use powers like Force Choke.

2. Turbolasers can't be that powerful because the cutscene in KOTOR showing the bombardment of Taris didn't show large explosions.

Oh for fuck's sake, how are either of these fucking common arguments?

Number one is refuted by Return of the Jedi, and the second is from a game that takes place in the fucking distant past.

Seriously stop fucking throwing every goddamn thing that flits through your mind.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-10-08 02:22pm

Sorry, I was just trying to contribute arguments I had heard. I'll stop now.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-10-08 10:46pm

Clonetrooper rifle maximum firepower is pathetic because some jeid have energy absorption abilities, and when Order 66 is given, the Clones would have no time or ability to know which jedi would or would not have this ability, so they'd have to use maximum firepower on all the Jedi, to be safe. And, given what we saw in the movies, ,that maximum firepower is shit.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-08 11:39pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
OmegaGuy wrote:Two more arguments:

1. Jedi and light - side users don't use powers like Force Choke.

2. Turbolasers can't be that powerful because the cutscene in KOTOR showing the bombardment of Taris didn't show large explosions.
Oh for fuck's sake, how are either of these fucking common arguments?

Number one is refuted by Return of the Jedi, and the second is from a game that takes place in the fucking distant past.

Seriously stop fucking throwing every goddamn thing that flits through your mind.

Oh, I've seen a few trektards trying to use #1 here and there. Their response was "well, Luke wasn't a FULLY TRAINED Jedi at the time so he doesn't count" as if anyone with a brain can't see through that. If a partially trained one can do it, there is no reason a fully trained one couldn't.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-10-09 12:44am

Well, he was leaning to the Dark Side...

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-10-09 12:56am

To clarify: That's a counterargument which has been used (IIRC).

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2006-10-09 04:07am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Clonetrooper rifle maximum firepower is pathetic because some jeid have energy absorption abilities, and when Order 66 is given, the Clones would have no time or ability to know which jedi would or would not have this ability, so they'd have to use maximum firepower on all the Jedi, to be safe. And, given what we saw in the movies, ,that maximum firepower is shit.

You've actually encountered that arguement?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-10-09 05:42am

Yeah. Just one guy though, on SB.com. It was funny as hell

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-10-09 09:56am

What did you say back to him?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-10-09 10:39am

OmegaGuy wrote:Another common argument I hear is that the Force only works on weak - minded people and is useless on anyone with a strong will, based on Obi-Wan's comment in episode IV.

Use of the Force to alter someone's behavior depends on the target's will, but the target's will doesn't affect the power to physically move matter with the Force.

And since when are wish-washy Federation officers strong-willed?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-10-09 10:53am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:What did you say back to him?

That he was a fucking idiot, of course.

(went on at length about how he had no canon evidence to support his stance, his argument flew in the face of canon evidence and common sense, referenced multiple incidents of blasters causing catastrophic damage, etc etc).

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-10-09 11:32am

Vympel wrote:Who says he was "leaning to the Dark Side"? That's just made up non-canon shit. As far as Yoda was concerned, all he needed to do to be a Jedi was confront Vader.

I'll never understand how some thing that smashing two guards into a wall with sufficient strength to knock them unconcious is somehow fine (RotS) but if you make them choke and gasp, all of a sudden it's DARK SIDED.

Fucking please ....

(not speaking to anyone in particular, of course)

I fully agree of course. I've seen such claims on several occasions (there was also a thread here a few years ago:

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-10-09 12:49pm

Ted C wrote:And since when are wish-washy Federation officers strong-willed?

Since they can staunchly defend and uphold the prime directive even at the cost of their own lives.

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2006-10-22 03:23pm

I would just like to point out a typo in the arguments section:

argument #36 wrote:When Anakin fires his torpedoes in the landing bay of the Trade Federation battleship in TPM, they make only a small explosion. Therefore, photon torpedoes are weak.

Throughout the argument PHOTON torpedo is written instead of PROTON torpedo. It's nothing serious mind you but some Trekkies might get a wrong idea

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-10-22 07:39pm

OmegaGuy wrote:2. Turbolasers can't be that powerful because the cutscene in KOTOR showing the bombardment of Taris didn't show large explosions.

Aside from being a scene from a game set 4k years in the past... that's wrong. The up-and-close cutsenes doesn't show comparatively large explosions, however it still destroyed multi-km skyscrapers in single shots. Plus 2) in the cutscene when the Ebon Hawk leaves the planet, you get to see much larger explosions. They correspond to 12 GT per shot, but there's one problem with the fireballs; they expand and disappear much too fast compared to real explosions. But, if you ever encounter anyone who takes the game cutscene for valid evidence, this one is just as valid...

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-22 07:51pm

What was the canonicity of computer games again?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-10-22 08:24pm

Batman wrote:What was the canonicity of computer games again?

Backstories, cutscenes, etc. are C-canon. Game mechanics and stats aren't considered canon; however they can be used to make relative comparisons in the absence of any information from the books.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-22 08:37pm

That comment was sarcasm actually but thank you nonetheless. So how does a 4,000 year old ship using an undetermined weapon (are they ever explicitely identified as TLs?) of an undetermined calibre having an undetermined amount of firepower in a game cutscene override the ICS?

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-22 08:44pm

Uh... It says that I started this thread. Obviously, I didn't. What happened to the initial posts?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-22 08:49pm

havokeff wrote:Uh... It says that I started this thread. Obviously, I didn't. What happened to the initial posts?

Does the term 'thread split' mean anything to you?