Hoaxers vs. Rocket Scientists (Kinda long)
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Hoaxers vs. Rocket Scientists (Kinda long)
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/12/2 ... index.html
CAPE CANAVERAL, Florida (AP) -- Is that the moon or a studio in the Nevada desert? How can the flag flutter when there's no wind on the moon? Why can't we see stars in the moon-landing pictures?
For three decades, NASA has taken the high road, ignoring those who claimed the Apollo moon landings were faked and part of a colossal government conspiracy.
The claims and suspicious questions like the ones cited here mostly showed up in books and on the Internet. But last year's prime-time Fox TV special on the so-called "moon hoax" prompted schoolteachers and others to plead with NASA for factual ammunition to fight back.
So a few months ago, the space agency budgeted $15,000 to hire a former rocket scientist and author to produce a small book refuting the disbelievers' claims. It would be written primarily with teachers and students in mind.
The idea backfired, however, embarrassing the space agency for responding to ignorance, and the book deal was chucked.
"The issue of trying to do a targeted response to this is just lending credibility to something that is, on its face, asinine," NASA chief Sean O'Keefe said in late November after the dust settled.
So it's back to square one -- ignoring the hoaxers. That's troubling to some scientific experts who contend that someone needs to lead the fight against scientific illiteracy and the growing belief in pseudoscience like aliens and astrology.
Someone like NASA.
"If they don't speak out, who will?" asks Melissa Pollak, a senior analyst at the National Science Foundation.
Author James Oberg will. The former space shuttle flight controller plans to write the book NASA commissioned from him even though the agency pulled the plug. He's seeking money elsewhere. His working title: "A Pall Over Apollo."
Tom Hanks will speak out, too.
The Academy Award-winning actor, who starred in the 1995 movie "Apollo 13" and later directed the HBO miniseries "From the Earth to the Moon," is working on another lunar-themed project. The IMAX documentary will feature Apollo archival footage. Its title: "Magnificent Desolation," astronaut Buzz Aldrin's real-time description of the moon on July 20, 1969.
While attending the Cape Canaveral premiere of the IMAX version of "Apollo 13" in November, Hanks said the film industry has a responsibility to promote historical literacy. He took a jab at the 1978 movie "Capricorn One," which had NASA's first manned mission to Mars being faked on a sound stage.
"We live in a society where there is no law in making money in the promulgation of ignorance or, in some cases, stupidity," Hanks said. "There are a lot of things you can say never happened. You can go as relatively quasi-harmless as saying no one went to the moon. But you also can say that the Holocaust never happened."
A spokesman for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington says there will always be those who will not be convinced. But the museum does not engage them in debate.
The spokesman acknowledges, however, that if a major news channel was doing a program that questioned the authenticity of the Holocaust, "I'd certainly want to inject myself into the debate with them in a very forceful way."
Television's Fox Network was the moon-hoax purveyor. In February 2001 and again a month later, Fox broadcast an hourlong program titled "Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?"
Roger Launius, who agreed to Oberg's book just before leaving NASA's history office, says the story about the moon hoax has been around a long time. But the Fox show "raised it to a new level, it gave it legs and credibility that it didn't have before."
Indeed, the National Science Foundation's Pollak says two of her colleagues, after watching the Fox special, thought it was possible that NASA faked the moon landings. "These are people who work at NSF," she stresses.
The story went -- and still goes -- something like this: America was desperate to beat the Soviet Union in the high-stakes race to the moon, but lacked the technology to pull it off. So NASA faked the six manned moon landings in a studio somewhere out West.
Ralph Rene, a retired carpenter in Passaic, N.J., takes it one step farther. The space fakery started during the Gemini program, according to Rene, author of the 1992 book, "NASA Mooned America!"
"I don't know what real achievements they've done because when do you trust a liar?" Rene says. "I know we have a shuttle running right around above our heads, but that's only 175 miles up. It's under the shield. You cannot go through the shield and live."
He's talking, of course, about the radiation shield.
Alex Roland, a NASA historian during the 1970s and early 1980s, says his office used to have "a kook drawer" for such correspondence and never took it very seriously. But there were no prime-time TV shows disputing the moon landings then -- and no Internet.
Still, Roland would be inclined to "just let it go because you'll probably just make it worse by giving it any official attention."
Within NASA, opinions were split about a rebuttal book. Oberg, a Houston-based author of 12 books, mostly about the Russian space program, said ignoring the problem "just makes this harder. To a conspiracy mind, refusing to respond is a sign of cover-up."
Phil Plait, a Sonoma State University astronomer who picks apart the moon hoaxers' claims on his "Bad Astronomy" Web site, agrees that NASA should have followed through with the book but understands why it didn't.
"It became, as things like this do, a media circus. And by circus, I mean more like carnival," Plait says, toot-toot-tootling like a calliope. He warns, "There's a lot of antiscientific thinking and if this stuff is allowed to continue, it's going to spell doom for our country."
Apollo 13 commander Jim Lovell does not know what else, if anything, can be done to confront this moon madness.
"All I know is that somebody sued me because I said I went to the moon," says the 74-year-old astronaut. "Of course, the courts threw it out."
The authorities also threw out the case involving Apollo 11 moonwalker Aldrin in September.
A much bigger and younger man was hounding the 72-year-old astronaut in Beverly Hills, Calif., calling him "a coward and a liar and a thief" and trying to get him to swear on a Bible, on camera, that he walked on the moon. Aldrin, a Korean War combat pilot, responded with a fist in the chops.
Compare this with the gentle disbelievers of yesteryear.
For its last manned moon shot 30 years ago this month, NASA invited Charlie Smith, a former slave reputed to be 130 years old. Smith was impressed by the nighttime liftoff of Apollo 17, but said afterward he still did not believe the astronauts were flying to the moon. "It just can't happen," he insisted.
Ron Howard's grandfather also did not believe men went to the moon. Howard grew up to become the director of "Apollo 13."
====================================================
It never ceases to amaze me the reasons people list that we didn't land on the moon.
"It just can't happen"
CAPE CANAVERAL, Florida (AP) -- Is that the moon or a studio in the Nevada desert? How can the flag flutter when there's no wind on the moon? Why can't we see stars in the moon-landing pictures?
For three decades, NASA has taken the high road, ignoring those who claimed the Apollo moon landings were faked and part of a colossal government conspiracy.
The claims and suspicious questions like the ones cited here mostly showed up in books and on the Internet. But last year's prime-time Fox TV special on the so-called "moon hoax" prompted schoolteachers and others to plead with NASA for factual ammunition to fight back.
So a few months ago, the space agency budgeted $15,000 to hire a former rocket scientist and author to produce a small book refuting the disbelievers' claims. It would be written primarily with teachers and students in mind.
The idea backfired, however, embarrassing the space agency for responding to ignorance, and the book deal was chucked.
"The issue of trying to do a targeted response to this is just lending credibility to something that is, on its face, asinine," NASA chief Sean O'Keefe said in late November after the dust settled.
So it's back to square one -- ignoring the hoaxers. That's troubling to some scientific experts who contend that someone needs to lead the fight against scientific illiteracy and the growing belief in pseudoscience like aliens and astrology.
Someone like NASA.
"If they don't speak out, who will?" asks Melissa Pollak, a senior analyst at the National Science Foundation.
Author James Oberg will. The former space shuttle flight controller plans to write the book NASA commissioned from him even though the agency pulled the plug. He's seeking money elsewhere. His working title: "A Pall Over Apollo."
Tom Hanks will speak out, too.
The Academy Award-winning actor, who starred in the 1995 movie "Apollo 13" and later directed the HBO miniseries "From the Earth to the Moon," is working on another lunar-themed project. The IMAX documentary will feature Apollo archival footage. Its title: "Magnificent Desolation," astronaut Buzz Aldrin's real-time description of the moon on July 20, 1969.
While attending the Cape Canaveral premiere of the IMAX version of "Apollo 13" in November, Hanks said the film industry has a responsibility to promote historical literacy. He took a jab at the 1978 movie "Capricorn One," which had NASA's first manned mission to Mars being faked on a sound stage.
"We live in a society where there is no law in making money in the promulgation of ignorance or, in some cases, stupidity," Hanks said. "There are a lot of things you can say never happened. You can go as relatively quasi-harmless as saying no one went to the moon. But you also can say that the Holocaust never happened."
A spokesman for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington says there will always be those who will not be convinced. But the museum does not engage them in debate.
The spokesman acknowledges, however, that if a major news channel was doing a program that questioned the authenticity of the Holocaust, "I'd certainly want to inject myself into the debate with them in a very forceful way."
Television's Fox Network was the moon-hoax purveyor. In February 2001 and again a month later, Fox broadcast an hourlong program titled "Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?"
Roger Launius, who agreed to Oberg's book just before leaving NASA's history office, says the story about the moon hoax has been around a long time. But the Fox show "raised it to a new level, it gave it legs and credibility that it didn't have before."
Indeed, the National Science Foundation's Pollak says two of her colleagues, after watching the Fox special, thought it was possible that NASA faked the moon landings. "These are people who work at NSF," she stresses.
The story went -- and still goes -- something like this: America was desperate to beat the Soviet Union in the high-stakes race to the moon, but lacked the technology to pull it off. So NASA faked the six manned moon landings in a studio somewhere out West.
Ralph Rene, a retired carpenter in Passaic, N.J., takes it one step farther. The space fakery started during the Gemini program, according to Rene, author of the 1992 book, "NASA Mooned America!"
"I don't know what real achievements they've done because when do you trust a liar?" Rene says. "I know we have a shuttle running right around above our heads, but that's only 175 miles up. It's under the shield. You cannot go through the shield and live."
He's talking, of course, about the radiation shield.
Alex Roland, a NASA historian during the 1970s and early 1980s, says his office used to have "a kook drawer" for such correspondence and never took it very seriously. But there were no prime-time TV shows disputing the moon landings then -- and no Internet.
Still, Roland would be inclined to "just let it go because you'll probably just make it worse by giving it any official attention."
Within NASA, opinions were split about a rebuttal book. Oberg, a Houston-based author of 12 books, mostly about the Russian space program, said ignoring the problem "just makes this harder. To a conspiracy mind, refusing to respond is a sign of cover-up."
Phil Plait, a Sonoma State University astronomer who picks apart the moon hoaxers' claims on his "Bad Astronomy" Web site, agrees that NASA should have followed through with the book but understands why it didn't.
"It became, as things like this do, a media circus. And by circus, I mean more like carnival," Plait says, toot-toot-tootling like a calliope. He warns, "There's a lot of antiscientific thinking and if this stuff is allowed to continue, it's going to spell doom for our country."
Apollo 13 commander Jim Lovell does not know what else, if anything, can be done to confront this moon madness.
"All I know is that somebody sued me because I said I went to the moon," says the 74-year-old astronaut. "Of course, the courts threw it out."
The authorities also threw out the case involving Apollo 11 moonwalker Aldrin in September.
A much bigger and younger man was hounding the 72-year-old astronaut in Beverly Hills, Calif., calling him "a coward and a liar and a thief" and trying to get him to swear on a Bible, on camera, that he walked on the moon. Aldrin, a Korean War combat pilot, responded with a fist in the chops.
Compare this with the gentle disbelievers of yesteryear.
For its last manned moon shot 30 years ago this month, NASA invited Charlie Smith, a former slave reputed to be 130 years old. Smith was impressed by the nighttime liftoff of Apollo 17, but said afterward he still did not believe the astronauts were flying to the moon. "It just can't happen," he insisted.
Ron Howard's grandfather also did not believe men went to the moon. Howard grew up to become the director of "Apollo 13."
====================================================
It never ceases to amaze me the reasons people list that we didn't land on the moon.
"It just can't happen"
- SyntaxVorlon
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More proof that american society is completely out to lunch. These people want to latch on to some "big government coverup" so they can live out their mulder/scully fantasies. They want to pretend that they are skeptics, but lacking the knowledge, ability and/or motivation to find real government coverups they go after NASA. I blame this on Bush, because he shut down the FoI Act and these people can't satisfiy themselves with real government conspiricies. Of course shuting down FoI was a bad idea for more pressing and meaningful reasons(the ability to watchdog gov. agencies for book cooking and discrimination).
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Yes and no. Those people are "out to lunch" but that is hardly evidence that American society is "out to lunch". If anything it means that some humans are not very intelligent, but we already knew that.SyntaxVorlon wrote:More proof that american society is completely out to lunch. These people want to latch on to some "big government coverup" so they can live out their mulder/scully fantasies. They want to pretend that they are skeptics, but lacking the knowledge, ability and/or motivation to find real government coverups they go after NASA. I blame this on Bush, because he shut down the FoI Act and these people can't satisfiy themselves with real government conspiricies. Of course shuting down FoI was a bad idea for more pressing and meaningful reasons(the ability to watchdog gov. agencies for book cooking and discrimination).
- RedImperator
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How the hell can you blame this on Bush? People were saying the moon landings didn't happen back when Dubya was still blowing coke and running oil companies into the ground in Texas.SyntaxVorlon wrote:More proof that american society is completely out to lunch. These people want to latch on to some "big government coverup" so they can live out their mulder/scully fantasies. They want to pretend that they are skeptics, but lacking the knowledge, ability and/or motivation to find real government coverups they go after NASA. I blame this on Bush, because he shut down the FoI Act and these people can't satisfiy themselves with real government conspiricies. Of course shuting down FoI was a bad idea for more pressing and meaningful reasons(the ability to watchdog gov. agencies for book cooking and discrimination).
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
X-Ray Blues
- Kamakazie Sith
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He blames Bush because he shut down the FoI Act. Though I thought it was kinda funny that he said "These people want to latch on to some big government coverup" and then goes on to latch onto one himself.RedImperator wrote:How the hell can you blame this on Bush? People were saying the moon landings didn't happen back when Dubya was still blowing coke and running oil companies into the ground in Texas.SyntaxVorlon wrote:More proof that american society is completely out to lunch. These people want to latch on to some "big government coverup" so they can live out their mulder/scully fantasies. They want to pretend that they are skeptics, but lacking the knowledge, ability and/or motivation to find real government coverups they go after NASA. I blame this on Bush, because he shut down the FoI Act and these people can't satisfiy themselves with real government conspiricies. Of course shuting down FoI was a bad idea for more pressing and meaningful reasons(the ability to watchdog gov. agencies for book cooking and discrimination).
- RedImperator
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I got that part. FoI Act, evil Republicans burning the Constution, blah blah blah, Bush is a fascist, blah blah blah. All part of the "I'm a sophisticated intellectual because I'm pissing all over Bush" crowd's usual song and dance. I'm just wondering how he thinks Bush is reponsible for all these people who believed in the moon hoax before he got elected. Time travel? Magic? This is, so far as I know, the first time he's been blamed for something that happened thirty years before he came into office.Kamakazie Sith wrote:He blames Bush because he shut down the FoI Act. Though I thought it was kinda funny that he said "These people want to latch on to some big government coverup" and then goes on to latch onto one himself.RedImperator wrote:How the hell can you blame this on Bush? People were saying the moon landings didn't happen back when Dubya was still blowing coke and running oil companies into the ground in Texas.SyntaxVorlon wrote:More proof that american society is completely out to lunch. These people want to latch on to some "big government coverup" so they can live out their mulder/scully fantasies. They want to pretend that they are skeptics, but lacking the knowledge, ability and/or motivation to find real government coverups they go after NASA. I blame this on Bush, because he shut down the FoI Act and these people can't satisfiy themselves with real government conspiricies. Of course shuting down FoI was a bad idea for more pressing and meaningful reasons(the ability to watchdog gov. agencies for book cooking and discrimination).
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
X-Ray Blues
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SeebianWurm wrote:She was/is scary. Should be sterilized, at the least.
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Thank you kamakazi for being the first person on these boards to actually notice irony.Kamakazie Sith wrote:He blames Bush because he shut down the FoI Act. Though I thought it was kinda funny that he said "These people want to latch on to some big government coverup" and then goes on to latch onto one himself.RedImperator wrote:How the hell can you blame this on Bush? People were saying the moon landings didn't happen back when Dubya was still blowing coke and running oil companies into the ground in Texas.SyntaxVorlon wrote:More proof that american society is completely out to lunch. These people want to latch on to some "big government coverup" so they can live out their mulder/scully fantasies. They want to pretend that they are skeptics, but lacking the knowledge, ability and/or motivation to find real government coverups they go after NASA. I blame this on Bush, because he shut down the FoI Act and these people can't satisfiy themselves with real government conspiricies. Of course shuting down FoI was a bad idea for more pressing and meaningful reasons(the ability to watchdog gov. agencies for book cooking and discrimination).
Bush closed down FoI so now all the yahoos who have no real government coverups to look for start going after NASA.
Hey I only constituted <b>4</b> blahs!!
http://www.creationweb.org/ viewtopic.php?t=60&start=15
Scroll down. No direct linking please, copy & paste.
Scroll down. No direct linking please, copy & paste.
BoTM, MM, HAB, JL
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Yeah I remember her, she's the girl that claims to have mob connections, FBI connections, the moon landing was a hoax, and liked Pavel for some strange reason.
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To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
On the other hand, she is currently arguing big time with the big guns, because she's a Christian and not a homophobic nazi and wants to be a female pastor.
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"Life 's not a song, life isn't bliss, life is just this: it's living." - Spike, Once More with Feeling
Chick4Christ22 also said she would take up the "if nothing is real then jump off the roof" challenge.
Her faith is strong...
Her faith is strong...
I am capable of rearranging the fundamental building blocks of the universe in under six seconds. I shelve physics texts under "Fiction" in my personal library! I am grasping the reigns of the universe's carriage, and every morning get up and shout "Giddy up, boy!" You may never grasp the complexities of what I do, but at least have the courtesy to feign something other than slack-jawed oblivion in my presence. I, sir, am a wizard, and I break more natural laws before breakfast than of which you are even aware!
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Ever hear from her after she said thatYogi wrote:Chick4Christ22 also said she would take up the "if nothing is real then jump off the roof" challenge.
Her faith is strong...
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You have no idea. I once had person tell me that they couldn't be mad at anyone because it would be like being mad at a part of themselves because we, and everything around us is apart of us.The Yosemite Bear wrote:Gee I thought the equation was:SeebianWurm wrote:Faith==Stupidity
Ignorance==Bliss
thus the ignorant inbreds are the happiest people on Earth.
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lol
of course since all the happyones are just like them, there most be something wrong with the rest of us unhappy folks whose heads feel like their going to explode when we hear them say something that mind numbingly stupid...
of course since all the happyones are just like them, there most be something wrong with the rest of us unhappy folks whose heads feel like their going to explode when we hear them say something that mind numbingly stupid...
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
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I knew the World went mad, after Man landed on the Moon...
What strikes me as... odd, is, besides the stupidity of "some" Americans to create and believe in these hoaxes, the destruction of national symbols and pride, after all, the sent people to the Moon! Why can't they accept that great feat? Why can't they accept there was a team of people capapble of perform such technical marvel?
These are probably the same people that believe the Pyramids were built by aliens, because we, poor Humans, could never build such structures...
I pity the American society...
What strikes me as... odd, is, besides the stupidity of "some" Americans to create and believe in these hoaxes, the destruction of national symbols and pride, after all, the sent people to the Moon! Why can't they accept that great feat? Why can't they accept there was a team of people capapble of perform such technical marvel?
These are probably the same people that believe the Pyramids were built by aliens, because we, poor Humans, could never build such structures...
I pity the American society...
[img=left]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/ ... iggado.jpg[/img] "You know, it's odd; practically everything that's happened on any of the inhabited planets has happened on Terra before the first spaceship." -- Space Viking
Although some of the evidence is very persuading, such as the van allen radiation belt theory, i believe the these conspiracy theorys are on the whole propogated by the same people who would try to convince you an orange is black.IOW crazy muther fuckers!! But then again if thats what they want to berlieve good for them.
[/quote]
[/quote]
"yub yub commander."
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Even that is utter bullshit. The metal of the capsules shielded the astronauts from most of the radiation. They went through the belt to quickly for the rest of it to do any damage.mollusk wrote:Although some of the evidence is very persuading, such as the van allen radiation belt theory
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
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Oh, yeah, and the Russians are in it too, since there were a couple of US astronauts on the Mir station, that colision between the station and the ... (forgot the name of the vehicle, Soyuz something...) ... and the end of the station was a nicely done firework, wasn't it?
Van Allen radiation may be dangerous, but maybe less then when they're in the middle of a solar storm (on that same documentary, the russian astronauts claimed once they could feel the radiation passing throught their body... maybe, maybe not), but claiming spaceflight is impossible just because of that, it's plain idiotic. Besides, since we know it's there, it's fair enough to the people that goes through it to be protected, right?
Van Allen radiation may be dangerous, but maybe less then when they're in the middle of a solar storm (on that same documentary, the russian astronauts claimed once they could feel the radiation passing throught their body... maybe, maybe not), but claiming spaceflight is impossible just because of that, it's plain idiotic. Besides, since we know it's there, it's fair enough to the people that goes through it to be protected, right?
[img=left]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/ ... iggado.jpg[/img] "You know, it's odd; practically everything that's happened on any of the inhabited planets has happened on Terra before the first spaceship." -- Space Viking