Myth of the Picard Manuver(TM)

[Mr Bean]

Ahh the Picard Manuver the fabled manivor never used since by Picard or anyone else though its named after him and people like Gramam Kenndey used to think that one E-D could defeat a billion ISD's because of it

However lets example this fabled manvor a bit closer yes?

To give it in the short hand verison you do the Picard Manuver(TM) by Warping as close as possible to the Target, unleasing all possible firepower on it then heeling sharply and running away

A good idea right?
How Brillant of Mr Picard...

However whats this lets examine this a bit closer

A Picard Manuver(TM)
Is this
1. Get very close very fast
2. Hitting the Enemy with everything you have
3. Runnin away after-words

Gee thats very similar to another famous move invented what five hundred prehaps a thousand years ago?


Ah yes the Fabled
Ahlpa Strike which is
1. Getting very close very fast
2. Hitting the enemy with everything you have
3. Retreting as fast as possible to repeat if nessary

Hmm anyone notice any similarites?

This public enlighting brought to you by the Hard Working ST Script Writing Hobos of America(HWSTHA)

Have a nice day

[Omega-13]

The Picard manouver is somewhat rediculous vs stardestroyers, the turbo lasers are going to be firing non stop, so they'll just hit the enterprise faster..

[paladin]

The PM could work against an ISD, provide the ISD captain is stupid.

[Mr Bean]

The PM could work against an ISD, provide the ISD captain is stupid

And has his shield down and is not firing for ten mintues

[Anarchist Bunny]

And was being run by an Andromedea sized crew.

[Tsyroc]

Ahh the Picard Manuver the fabled manivor never used since by Picard or anyone else though its named after him and people like Gramam Kenndey used to think that one E-D could defeat a billion ISD's because of it

However lets example this fabled manvor a bit closer yes?

To give it in the short hand verison you do the Picard Manuver(TM) by Warping as close as possible to the Target, unleasing all possible firepower on it then heeling sharply and running away

A good idea right?
How Brillant of Mr Picard...

However whats this lets examine this a bit closer

A Picard Manuver(TM)
Is this
1. Get very close very fast
2. Hitting the Enemy with everything you have
3. Runnin away after-words

Gee thats very similar to another famous move invented what five hundred prehaps a thousand years ago?


Ah yes the Fabled
Ahlpa Strike which is
1. Getting very close very fast
2. Hitting the enemy with everything you have
3. Retreting as fast as possible to repeat if nessary

Hmm anyone notice any similarites?

This public enlighting brought to you by the Hard Working ST Script Writing Hobos of America(HWSTHA)

Have a nice day

I think that the only thing of note in the Picard Manuver™ is that because of the limitations in the Ferengi vessels sensors the Stargazer appeared to be in two places at the same time. Not that it really matters. The Ferengi thought the Stargazer was in one place when it was actually someplace else and so they lost, pretty basic tactics I would think.

You are perfectly correct that when broken down the Picard Manuver™ is not
all that special. I think the real surprise (to the Federation geeks) was that a ship as powerful as the Ferengi's didn't have FTL sensors.

The only impressive thing about this so-called manuver is that Picard (and crew) realized the Ferengi ship's limitation and took advantage so quickly. If they hadn't they would have been toast.

[SPOOFE]

I think that the only thing of note in the Picard Manuver™ is that because of the limitations in the Ferengi vessels sensors the Stargazer appeared to be in two places at the same time.

True, this was the advantage that the crew kept mentioning. They also mentioned that "there was no known defense against it" (although Data managed to create one in less time than it takes to fart).

Anyone with half a brain can devise a counter to the Picard maneuver easily.... fire at the newest "image" of the target ship.

Further... the proclaimed effectiveness of the Picard maneuver against the Enterprise seems to indicate that a ship's shield system is (at least partially) reactive... that the ship's computer anticipates an attack coming from a certain direction, and strengthen's that area (at the detriment to other areas). That's the only possible way in which the Picard maneuver can be effective (that, and a stupid computer incapable of grasping the counter that I mentioned above).

This implies that Federation ships should be very vulnerable to surprise attacks.

[Master of Ossus]

What the Picard Maneuver does is allow a SF vessel to gain a 50% ability to dodge one shot (random which one the ISD targets, though it would actually most likely target the closer of the two ships). The Picard Maneuver does not increase firepower at all, and it really does very little considering that ISD's can still destroy SF ships with half their shots, and a Federation ship can essentially do nothing to respond.

As an aside, the Picard Maneuver should demonstrate conclusively that "warp strafing" is impossible. Otherwise, the Picard Maneuver should be less effective than using the same technique, except continuing in warp past the enemy ship. Then, your ship will be firing at the enemy from two places at once, and the enemy is forced to turn its back on one threat to engage another. If anyone tries to pull the infamous "warp strafing" trick on you guys again, just point out the Picard Maneuver for a one-hit knockout.

[Jack Lain]

I see the enemy ship warp, I warp. So much for appearing directly in front of me as I am now behind you.

The whole PM is just silly lazy ass writers who wanted to give Picard a similar rep as Kirk with the kobayashi maru. It is ridiculous and their lack of imagination has yet again hurt TNG. Stupid lame ass fuckers. Or as you all know them; hobos! Shit, I can come up with a better legend for Picard than these stupid fuckers.
How anyone could like TNG after season 4 is beyond me. They butched the show and destroyed the whole concept. Continuity was lost, trecknobabble started and pussy crusher actually became a character. WTF??? What a waste of time that show was until the final ep. I did like the final episode. It was well done and Patrick Stewart is a great actor. Anyone else remember him in Excalibur or I,Claudius? He is good.

-Jack "I like TOS" Lain.

[SirNitram]

Actually, a PM is a wise idea, when one considers that a full volley from a ST ship is often enough to cripple/kill their opposition. It places you in prime firing territory very quickly, forcing your opponent to look to your new position while you blast 'em.

Sadly, as a full volley from any ST vessel won't cause a noticable flux in a ISD's shields, it's nothing for vs. debators to fear.

[Master of Ossus]

I see the enemy ship warp, I warp. So much for appearing directly in front of me as I am now behind you.
-Jack "I like TOS" Lain.

Yeah, but that would require that you knew which one was the "real" ship. Then again, you should probably know, anyway, if you're smart and know about the Picard Maneuver. Warping at the original ship would only allow for both ships to switch positions. It would not give either side a huge tactical advantage.

[Jack Lain]

I'll concede to you SirNitram as ST ships would fall to this trick. They are very weak and a warp core situation could develop in seconds with the PM tactic.

Master of Ossus - I think you and I are on the same page. We simply change positions. So the tactical advantage is lost. Now we must face each other in ship-to-ship combat where the winner is determined by classic definitions. Firepower, shields, movement, etc...
Correct me if I misunderstood your reply. :)
Oh, I should have said in my post, the PM is fairly well known. I guess if the ST combatants don't know about it, well it is a nice tactic. But still, the writers are lazy shits and they put this crap into the show to make Picard seem the equal of Kirk with the kobayashi maru. They wanted Picard to be as well "rounded" as Kirk. The fact that Kirk cheated on the kobayashi maru, seems lost on these morons. As I said before, I can write better than the idiot hobos. Stupid nubs!

-Jack "wanna play cs now" Lain.

[Master of Ossus]

Right, you change positions IF you recognize what your opponent has done in time. Since no ships appear to have been able to realize what is going on (followed by shooting at the closer of the two images), it would appear that something is preventing them from doing that, or commanders in ST are just idiots. I don't think that that makes the PM any more or less effective. It is weak against SW ships, and it further proves that warp strafing is impossible (as if we needed any more proof).

[SPOOFE]

Yeah, but that would require that you knew which one was the "real" ship.

That's the REALLY weird thing. ST ships are supposed to have subspace sensors... i.e. they should be able to receive sensor information faster than light. At most, the Picard Maneuver should be able to give the attacking ship a whole millisecond advantage. Given the speeds at which ST ships normally fight (one stray phaser blast every three seconds or so), that's nothing.

Oh well. That was just an idiotic episode.

[Vympel]

Even though a few week ago I watched the entire Season 1 DVD set (no I didn't waste money on it, borrowed it off trekkie friend who thinks Q will save the Federation in such a situation- unghh.) I don't remember 'The Battle' (yeah, some battle that) that well, so I could be wrong- but what does this episode tell us about the Enterprise?

Picard attempts the Picard maneuver on the Enterprise. Riker & Co. are scared- the POS Stargazer is going to attack them- erm ... what does this tell us about the Enterprise? That the biggest baddest ship in the Fed, the Galaxy-class, can't repel firepower (i.e. a single torpedo spread and a few phaser blasts from obsolete phaser arrays) from an old POS like the Constellation-class.

Also, I was not aware the Kirk's rep came from the Kobyashi Maru test- I thought his great warrior thing was

- the battles in TOS (hahah including the hand to hand ones- cue TOS fight music!)
- Bitch-slapping Khan in ST II despite extremely messed up ship and green crew
- Stealing the Klingon Bird of Prey in ST III and killing almost its entire crew due to his destruction of the Enterprise. Admittedly, due to as much as the Klingon commander's stupidity- i.e. a 12-crew BOP boarding a "Federation Battlecruiser" ... what a FOOL. Security officers would've beaten them anyway if the ship was fully manned.

[Patrick Degan]

I don't see how getting up from your command chair and pulling your tunic straight can possibly be of any good in battle...

[Tsyroc]

I don't see how getting up from your command chair and pulling your tunic straight can possibly be of any good in battle...

I was wondering when the real Picard Manuver™ was going to enter the discussion.

[Mr Bean]

Saddly I tried to prevent that and keep straite to the military tatics but unforatalty there always somone who brings up the OTHER Picard Manvior(Not TM thank bob)

[Patrick Degan]

There are several reasons why this manoevuer should never have worked:

•An afterimage, which is what the furthermost "ship" is, nevertheless would not have mass, nor be emitting heat or EM radiation, which should be detectable by sensors.

•The afterimage should be redshifted, with the actual ship being blueshifted as it rushes in toward its intended target at lightspeed —itself enough to give away which ship is the false image.

•The other ship's sensors should be able to pick up the energy spike from the attacking vessel's warp engines, which itself would be sufficent to alert the other ship's crew that something was up.

•The two images would be confusing to lightspeed sensors, but as has been pointed out, this tactic should be ineffective against any vessel with FTL sensors in its detection suite.

•There appeared, in "The Last Battle" to be a painfully long interval between executing the Picard Manoeuver and actually firing the weapons on the target ship. A fully alert crew with its ship's defences rigged up should not be caught so flatfooted as the Ferengi crew were.

•Close-range firing of the phasers shouldn't be enough in and of itself to knock down a starship's defences. They weren't when the Enterprise was subjected to repeated close-range strafing attacks by the comparably-armed Orion suicide ship in the TOS episode "Journey To Babel".

•Data defeats the Picard Manoeuver by simply anticipating where the Stargazer would jump to and by employing the tractor as a repulsorbeam. This seems to jam the Stargazer's targeting sensors and phasers.

From all this, it seems that the only reason that the Picard Manoeuver succeeded against the Ferengi at Maxia was because the Ferengi captain and crew were incredibly lazy and incompetent, dropped their shields, never bothered to activate their mass-detection sensors, couldn't read a doppler-shift, and stood down from battle alert when they contemptuously assumed that they had finished the Stargazer, and gave Picard and his gunners all the time they needed to actually fire their weapons and destroy them.

Despite all this, I still maintain that no Imperial captain would be impressed of the might of Federation power by Picard straightening his uniform tunic.

[Jack Lain]

Master of Ossus - sorry for a lack of a quick reply

I agree with you 100%. For some reason the ST ppl are not able to react in time to the PM move. Perhaps its because their computers are crap? Too slow to calculate the new position?
Perhaps it is due to my feelings that the writers are fucking idiots who only want Picard to equal Kirk? Or perhaps there is another explanation, ST commanders are idiots who do not see the obvious and require a super advanced andriod to figure it out for them. Or an engineer to make up some words to explain why they are fucking doomed?

/rant time again
How can anyone watch that show and not throw their hands up and into the air and not think, "I can write better than this!!!" Jebus, it is crap!!!
/end rant

-Jack "back again" Lain.

[Jack Lain]

Master of Ossus - sorry for a lack of a quick reply

I agree with you 100%. For some reason the ST ppl are not able to react in time to the PM move. Perhaps its because their computers are crap? Too slow to calculate the new position?
Perhaps it is due to my feelings that the writers are fucking idiots who only want Picard to equal Kirk? Or perhaps there is another explanation, ST commanders are idiots who do not see the obvious and require a super advanced andriod to figure it out for them. Or an engineer to make up some words to explain why they are fucking doomed?

/rant time again
How can anyone watch that show and not throw their hands up and into the air and not think, "I can write better than this!!!" Jebus, it is crap!!!
/end rant

-Jack "back again" Lain.

[Mr Bean]

Jack what do you except from Hobo's working for Sandwhichs? How else do you think they get those plot ideas?

[Mr Bean]

Jack what do you except from Hobo's working for Sandwhichs? How else do you think they get those plot ideas?

[Tsyroc]

Master of Ossus - sorry for a lack of a quick reply

I agree with you 100%. For some reason the ST ppl are not able to react in time to the PM move. Perhaps its because their computers are crap? Too slow to calculate the new position?
Perhaps it is due to my feelings that the writers are fucking idiots who only want Picard to equal Kirk? Or perhaps there is another explanation, ST commanders are idiots who do not see the obvious and require a super advanced andriod to figure it out for them. Or an engineer to make up some words to explain why they are fucking doomed?

I think you are right on both accounts. Can you think of a single Starfleet
officer since ST VI that you would want to serve under? For me the only one
who comes close is Sisko and even he pulled some some stupid moves at
times. Picard would probably be next for me if I absolutely had to but he's
definately bought into too much of that post TOS overly touchey feely commie trek. Actually that's the problem with most of the rest of the Starfleet officers, except for Janeway. She has absolutely no business being
in charge of anything.

As for Mister Worf, I think he might be okay (if none to swift) after he
watched Patton a few times. Maybe we could get rid of that "it's a good day to die" crap and get him to realize that you want the other guy to die a
glorious death (or just die) while you just live, glorious or otherwise.

/rant time again
How can anyone watch that show and not throw their hands up and into the air and not think, "I can write better than this!!!" Jebus, it is crap!!!
/end rant

-Jack "back again" Lain.

That certainly happened to me enough times in the first season of Voyager that I gave up watching it. I still watched DS9 but it certainly had its faults too.

[Tsyroc]

Master of Ossus - sorry for a lack of a quick reply

I agree with you 100%. For some reason the ST ppl are not able to react in time to the PM move. Perhaps its because their computers are crap? Too slow to calculate the new position?
Perhaps it is due to my feelings that the writers are fucking idiots who only want Picard to equal Kirk? Or perhaps there is another explanation, ST commanders are idiots who do not see the obvious and require a super advanced andriod to figure it out for them. Or an engineer to make up some words to explain why they are fucking doomed?

I think you are right on both accounts. Can you think of a single Starfleet
officer since ST VI that you would want to serve under? For me the only one
who comes close is Sisko and even he pulled some some stupid moves at
times. Picard would probably be next for me if I absolutely had to but he's
definately bought into too much of that post TOS overly touchey feely commie trek. Actually that's the problem with most of the rest of the Starfleet officers, except for Janeway. She has absolutely no business being
in charge of anything.

As for Mister Worf, I think he might be okay (if none to swift) after he
watched Patton a few times. Maybe we could get rid of that "it's a good day to die" crap and get him to realize that you want the other guy to die a
glorious death (or just die) while you just live, glorious or otherwise.

/rant time again
How can anyone watch that show and not throw their hands up and into the air and not think, "I can write better than this!!!" Jebus, it is crap!!!
/end rant

-Jack "back again" Lain.

That certainly happened to me enough times in the first season of Voyager that I gave up watching it. I still watched DS9 but it certainly had its faults too.