Ice Columbus -- Does it all hinge on one spearhead?

[Majin Gojira]

I just watched the discovery channel Docu-Drama (I'm a sucker for those things, damnit) Ice Age Columbus: Who Were the First Americans?) about the possibility of Ice Age Europeans crossing the atlantic along the edge of the frozen part of the Atlantic some 13000 years ago.

The main piece of evidence for this theory, however, was a spear head.

Later, in certain native american populations, genetic evidence was found (revealed in the last part of the program).

But it seems odd that all that was left of their culture/settlements was one spearhead.

If it weren't for the genetic evidence, it would certainly be a flimsy case.

Hell, even with the genetic evidnece, I find myself questioning this theory. Is there anymore evidence for or against this that they missed sine the program was produced?

[LadyTevar]

I believe there was the spearhead, and the cache of the larger spears, wasn't there? The ones they think were buried for some spiritual reason, because they were too big to be useful otherwise?

[Big Phil]

I would be absolutely shocked if, thousands of years ago, people weren't intermingling with other races. How many times do we read stories about sailors who were lost at sea turning up thousands of miles from where they disappeared, still alive? I find it more difficult to believe that there was NEVER a case of a European/African/Asian/American sailor blown way off course ending up in another continent than to believe that it did happen, and that the person(s) did intermingle with the native population. Assuming this happens to an entire ship, and not a single shipwrecked sailor, it's easier to find evidence of foreigners in another land.

[Flagg]

I would be absolutely shocked if, thousands of years ago, people weren't intermingling with other races. How many times do we read stories about sailors who were lost at sea turning up thousands of miles from where they disappeared, still alive? I find it more difficult to believe that there was NEVER a case of a European/African/Asian/American sailor blown way off course ending up in another continent than to believe that it did happen, and that the person(s) did intermingle with the native population. Assuming this happens to an entire ship, and not a single shipwrecked sailor, it's easier to find evidence of foreigners in another land.

The program states that they arrived thousands of years before the Land Bridge opened up, and their descendants interbred with the Asian 'natives'.

As for why there isn't much proof besides the one spearhead and the Genetic evidence, it's likely that most artifacts are underwater due to the rise in sea level.

And I think they stated that caches of ceremonial spearheads have been found in Europe, rather than in North America.

[Kettch]

Assuming this happens to an entire ship, and not a single shipwrecked sailor, it's easier to find evidence of foreigners in another land.

Irish Monks may have gotten to Iceland by putting themselves in boats, Coaracleswith out oars & with no or limited supplies & letting God take them or destroy them as he may. The most famous was St Brendan.

Also Roman ships have been discovered in Rio de Janeiro & Venezuala. (Not too suprising considering that they appeared to long voyage boats & the Romans had a colony in Cape Verde. More than one boat got caught in the westerlies & missed the isles they were targeting. (Charles Pellegrino, Ghost of Vesuvius Pg 298-307)

Given enough time & enough people getting caught in currents some Europeans should have ended up across the Atlantic.

[LaserRifleofDoom]

Got any links for the Roman ships?

[Big Phil]

Assuming this happens to an entire ship, and not a single shipwrecked sailor, it's easier to find evidence of foreigners in another land.

Irish Monks may have gotten to Iceland by putting themselves in boats, Coaracleswith out oars & with no or limited supplies & letting God take them or destroy them as he may. The most famous was St Brendan.

Also Roman ships have been discovered in Rio de Janeiro & Venezuala. (Not too suprising considering that they appeared to long voyage boats & the Romans had a colony in Cape Verde. More than one boat got caught in the westerlies & missed the isles they were targeting. (Charles Pellegrino, Ghost of Vesuvius Pg 298-307)

Given enough time & enough people getting caught in currents some Europeans should have ended up across the Atlantic.

The reverse is probably true as well... as well as Asians making it to the Americas

[Frank Hipper]

Assuming this happens to an entire ship, and not a single shipwrecked sailor, it's easier to find evidence of foreigners in another land.

Irish Monks may have gotten to Iceland by putting themselves in boats, Coaracleswith out oars & with no or limited supplies & letting God take them or destroy them as he may. The most famous was St Brendan.

Also Roman ships have been discovered in Rio de Janeiro & Venezuala. (Not too suprising considering that they appeared to long voyage boats & the Romans had a colony in Cape Verde. More than one boat got caught in the westerlies & missed the isles they were targeting. (Charles Pellegrino, Ghost of Vesuvius Pg 298-307)

Given enough time & enough people getting caught in currents some Europeans should have ended up across the Atlantic.

Bullshit.

[Kettch]

Assuming this happens to an entire ship, and not a single shipwrecked sailor, it's easier to find evidence of foreigners in another land.

Irish Monks may have gotten to Iceland by putting themselves in boats, Coaracleswith out oars & with no or limited supplies & letting God take them or destroy them as he may. The most famous was St Brendan.

Also Roman ships have been discovered in Rio de Janeiro & Venezuala. (Not too suprising considering that they appeared to long voyage boats & the Romans had a colony in Cape Verde. More than one boat got caught in the westerlies & missed the isles they were targeting. (Charles Pellegrino, Ghost of Vesuvius Pg 298-307)

Given enough time & enough people getting caught in currents some Europeans should have ended up across the Atlantic.

Bullshit.

The Romans? The Irish? A more 'primitive' people? The first two I've cited sources. The Polynesians made it across equally large swaths of ocean, (& figured out how to navigate). Sure surviving a crossing of the atlantic in primitive water craft is low, but over the course of thousands of years? The chances of somebody making it across 'the hard way' go up.

[Kettch]

The reverse is probably true as well... as well as Asians making it to the Americas

The standard hypothesis of human expansion into the Americas is of course the Bering Sea bridge. But that situation has been made more complex. There is a limited amount of evidence of human habitation in the Americas before the ice age land bridge. I should note that one of the biggest finds, in Mounte Verde Chile is highly disputed. But there is evidence of travel & possibly trade to Siberia post-ice age.

The Inuit are only slightly more recent colonizers of the Americas than Europeans, moving east wards starting 1000 CE & displacing the Tuniit. The Norse had beaten them to Greenland & only after the start of the little Ice Age did the more adaptable Inuit displace the Norse. The Inuit started off in Asia & crossed the Bering Strait using boats made of hides only .

[Frank Hipper]

The Romans? The Irish? A more 'primitive' people? The first two I've cited sources. The Polynesians made it across equally large swaths of ocean, (& figured out how to navigate). Sure surviving a crossing of the atlantic in primitive water craft is low, but over the course of thousands of years? The chances of somebody making it across 'the hard way' go up.

My "bullshit" comment is targeted at the ridiculous claim of Roman boat remains in South America, and the myth of St. Brendan.
If there was valid archeological evidence for Roman boats in South America, the entire world of archeology be rocked to it's foundations and I wouldn't be typing this.
The same goes for St. Brendan; the guy who "recreated" St. Brendan's voyage in the 1970s did so in a vessel that bore little to no resemblance to traditional Irish curraghs (not coracles, BTW), and he was fully aware of it.
The Irish had no tradtion of long-distance sea faring; an Irish hide-on-frame open boat landing safely somewhere is one thing, that same boat returning home with the tale is something else, entirely.

These extraordinary claims do not require extraordinary evidence, they simply require hard, unambiguous evidence.
Show me something Roman in South America, show me something that puts St. Brendan in North America.

As to possibilities, of course it's possible that Europeans could be swept out into the Atlantic in primitive craft and wind up in the Americas, but without evidence, speculation on those possibilities is meaningless.

[Kettch]

The Romans? The Irish? A more 'primitive' people? The first two I've cited sources. The Polynesians made it across equally large swaths of ocean, (& figured out how to navigate). Sure surviving a crossing of the atlantic in primitive water craft is low, but over the course of thousands of years? The chances of somebody making it across 'the hard way' go up.

My "bullshit" comment is targeted at the ridiculous claim of Roman boat remains in South America, and the myth of St. Brendan.
If there was valid archeological evidence for Roman boats in South America, the entire world of archeology be rocked to it's foundations and I wouldn't be typing this.
The same goes for St. Brendan; the guy who "recreated" St. Brendan's voyage in the 1970s did so in a vessel that bore little to no resemblance to traditional Irish curraghs (not coracles, BTW), and he was fully aware of it.
The Irish had no tradtion of long-distance sea faring; an Irish hide-on-frame open boat landing safely somewhere is one thing, that same boat returning home with the tale is something else, entirely.

These extraordinary claims do not require extraordinary evidence, they simply require hard, unambiguous evidence.
Show me something Roman in South America, show me something that puts St. Brendan in North America.

As to possibilities, of course it's possible that Europeans could be swept out into the Atlantic in primitive craft and wind up in the Americas, but without evidence, speculation on those possibilities is meaningless.

The abstract of original claims covered in the NYT:

RIO ARTIFACTS MAY INDICATE ROMAN VISIT
By WALTER SULLIVAN

Artifacts found in a bay near Rio de Janeiro may mark the wreck of a Roman ship that could have reached Brazil 17 centuries before Portuguese adventurers discovered the region, according to a leading underwater archeologist. A large accumulation of amphoras, or tall jars, of the type carried by Roman ships in the second century B.C., has been found in Guanabara Bay, 15 miles from Rio de Janiero, according to the archeologist, Robert Marx, who is a well-known hunter of sunken treasure. The Portuguese navigator Pedro Alvares Cabral is generally credited as having been the first European to reach Brazil, in the year 1500. Mr. Marx said yesterday that the Portuguese authorities were trying to block Brazil from issuing him a permit to excavate the wreck he thinks is buried there. Like the 5-Gallon Jerry Can Amphoras are tall jars tapering to the bottom and usually fitted with twin handles. As described by Mr. Marx, they were to the ancient Greeks, Romans and Phoenicians what the five-gallon jerry can was to mobile units in World War II. They were used to carry wine, oil, water or grain on long voyages.
October 10, 1982 World News

rogueclassicism is skeptical about the claim, which revolves heavilly arround Amphorae & similar jars were used on Iberian ships of the 15th & 16th c. to transport olive oil.

Dockwalk has an uncritical appraisal.

The Roman Amphora—
Learning from Storage Jars
Elizabeth Lyding Will

Wayback machine....

Excerpt of the last 3 paragraphs

During the Roman Empire, the provinces began to supplant Italy as the major suppliers of the world's markets. But what did it matter, since the whole Mediterranean was controlled by Rome? Olive oil and garum from Spain, wine from Gaul and olive oil from Africa found their way to India. Spain dominated the olive oil scene until the third century A.D.—as we know from the hill of broken amphoras making up Monte Testaccio in Rome—and Roman Spanish traders reached as far as Scotland and India. African olive oil was dominant from the third to the fifth centuries A.D. French wine, which became hugely popular in the early empire, gave way to wine industries in Africa: in Mauretania Caesariensis, in modern Algeria; and Mauretania, in modern Morocco.

Just how far did the Romans go? Is there a Roman ship off the Azores, as some say? Are there thousands of Phoenician and Roman amphora fragments on Salt Island in the Cape Verdes, as reported by the underwater salvor Robert Marx? Is the "Rio Wreck," at the bottom of Guanabara Bay near Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, a Roman ship that in ancient times was blown off course?

Twice a year London's Sunday Times phones me to ask if I know anything more about the Rio Wreck. The highly publicized amphoras Robert Marx found in the ship are in fact similar in shape to jars produced in kilns at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco. The Rio jars look to be late versions of those jars, perhaps datable to the third century A.D. I have a large piece of one of the Rio jars, but no labs I have consulted have any clay similar in composition. So the edges of the earth for Rome, beyond India and Scotland and eastern Europe, remain shrouded in mystery. • I'm going to have to revisit this tom ... la wreck.

[Frank Hipper]

To me, this, from your rogueclassicism link, is a death knell:

Controversy follows Marx like a plague. One of his most frustrating experiences took place in Brazil in 198l with his discovery of a 2nd century BC Roman shipwreck near Rio! The Spanish and Portuguese launched a media blitz, accusing Marx of salting the site with amphorae and other artefacts from shipwrecks in Italy.
Brazil succumbed to pressure and cancelled Marx's excavation permit, then covered the site with 5m of harbour sediment. Marx lost his temper in a meeting with the head of the navy, who also happened to be Brazil's Vice-President, and was asked to leave the country.

That he's the same guy involved in the claim to a Roman presence in the Cape Verdes islands is awfully damning, as well.

[Kettch]

To me, this, from your rogueclassicism link, is a death knell:

Controversy follows Marx like a plague. One of his most frustrating experiences took place in Brazil in 198l with his discovery of a 2nd century BC Roman shipwreck near Rio! The Spanish and Portuguese launched a media blitz, accusing Marx of salting the site with amphorae and other artefacts from shipwrecks in Italy.
Brazil succumbed to pressure and cancelled Marx's excavation permit, then covered the site with 5m of harbour sediment. Marx lost his temper in a meeting with the head of the navy, who also happened to be Brazil's Vice-President, and was asked to leave the country.

That he's the same guy involved in the claim to a Roman presence in the Cape Verdes islands is awfully damning, as well.

Hum, can't find any thing on him & Cape Verde that, but the Wikipedia delivers this tid bit:

Amphorae in Guanabara Bay

In 1982, Brazilian newspapers reported that fragments of amphorae had been recovered by professional treasure hunter Robert Frank Marx, from the bottom of Guanabara Bay, offshore Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Elizabeth Lyding Mill of the University of Massachusetts has reportedly identified the finds as being Roman, manufactured at Kouass (Dehar Jedid) in Morocco, and dated them to 3rd century. A bottom survey by Harold E. Edgerton of MIT located what seemed to be remains of two disintegrating ships.

These claims however collapsed when Américo (Amerigo) Santarelli, an Italian professional diver living in Rio de Janeiro, revealed in a book that he had 18 such amphors made by a local potter, and had placed 16 of them himself at various places in the bay. He said that his intent was to recover the encrusted amphors later, to decorate his house at Angra dos Reis. To prove his story, Santarelli recovered eight of the amphors. The story pretty much died there. Robert Marx, incidentally, was prohibited to work in Brazil (as in several other countries) by alleged ethical misconduct in an unrelated find.

Following the bibliogrphical entry leads to a blog page. It is not clear where the source of the information is, most of the posts on the page are news excerpts & those are cited. Here is the google translation of the post from the Portugues.

Robert Marx is one of more the colorings, assets and dangerous hunters of treasures of the World. In the middles of the decade of 90, he invested ugly fort and in Portugal, being one of the main inspirers of the law of the hunting to the treasure in the Country. Marx said in this height that directed 6 companies in 7 countries, representing a trust of investors as Billie Jean King and Diana Ross, of which was made use to abdicate as soon as got license to explore the Açores. He still affirmed to have helped the Regional Government of the Açores to elaborate the regional laws on concurred the regional subaqueous património being had, in 1988, with two company its, Canadian and a other American, to the concessions in the Region. He also affirmed to have similarly proceeded, in 1993, aquando of the approval of relative law 289/93 to the management of the national subaqueous cultural património (coincidently, or not, the coordinator of this projecto legislative, the Rui former-member of the house of representatives Gomes Da Silva, later became its lawyer in Portugal). Marx said consulting of the UNESCO and founder of the International Advice of Subaqueous Archaeology. He also affirmed to have been in the Açores, prospection, the decade of 60. Later, he was co-organizador of the trip of the rejoinder of caravela Niña II. He says to have more than recouped 500 million dollar in submerged treasures for about 55 governments, even so saw itself reduced to vender, for only 10 a thousand dollars, the localization of a hypothetical shipwreck to the Seahawk company. Marx affirmed to have initiated its career of looting when recouping artefactos in diverse used ships during the War of the American Secession. After having located some shipwrecks of Spanish and English ships of period 1650-1800 to the plaza of Puerto Rico and of the Virginias Islands, a pretense group of archaeology of the University of Tulare in prospection of diverse Mayan archaeological small farms was joined it, in Mexico. During this period it says to have discovered the remaining portions of the carrack Nuestra Señora of los Milagros and of the La Nicolasa. In 1960 it was changed for the Mediterranean where it lead subaqueous prospections of the cities of Cartagena and Bolonia in the south of Spain. It also says to have located and explored shipwrecks in Tariff, Zahara and in the port of Cadiz. In 1963, Marx came back to the Caraíbas, finishing for participating in the hollowings and the mapping of the sunk city of Port Royal, Jamaica. He affirmed to have joined and worked in the places of shipwreck of two ships of Columbus in the bay of St. Anne, in Jamaica. During the year of 1971, Marx explored shipwrecks in the Bahamas, Mexico and Colombia. In 1973 he was for the Lebanon, to explore the ports of Tyros, Byblos and Sidon. After to have come back of the South Atlantic and the Caraíbas, returned to the Average East, the coast north of Israel. In 1979, it affirms to have joined two fenicios shipwrecks, together with the Blot couple, in the river Arade, Portimão. It followed later for Panama and the Belize. Already it explored the Dutch Açores, Portugal Continental, Brazil, Australia, Great-Britain, Antilhas, the islands Maurícias and Palma of Majorca. This would be everything really?

The documentary Marx as sources



Been born in 1936, in Pittsburgh, Pensylvannia, Robert Marx ran away from house to the 13 years for Atlantic City where a local diver used it and he taught its craft to it. With 15 years it was directed for California, where Mel knew Fischer, the acriador of hens that if would have to become later famous when discovering the carrack Nuestra Señora de Atocha. Together with Fischer, Marx established the first article store of diving in Redondo Beach. He signed up themselves in the Marines during three years and worked in the USMC Diving School, in Puerto Rico. After if to move away from the Marines, in 1956, Fischer took obtains it for Cozumel, in Mexico in intention from there to carry through subaqueous films for the television. After a permanence of four years and way in Mexico, Marx finished for being imprisoned under the accusation of destruction of antiguidades. Freed of the arrest, Marx finished later for having to run away from the country, when if she saw involved in the robbery of a Mayan codex, in the value of 2 million dollar. After the jamaicana incursion, where it affirms to have joined in 1968 the remaining portions of the ships of Columbus - even so never it has disclosed the places of the shipwrecks - Marx worked of June of 1968 the January of 1971, as director of search and rescue of the company of hunting to the treasure of Kip Wagner, the Real Eight Company, that explored the destroços of the 1715 fleet. Curiously, Marx was accompanying of diving of Dimitri Rebikoff, that she also gave the name to the Rebikoff-Niggeler Foundation that currently meets hosted in the Horta and that, for coincidence, if she dedicates the activities subaqueous. It was with Rebikoff that Marx if dedicated to discover the vestigios of the lost civilization of the Atlantis. Aquando of its stay in the Lebanon, in 1973, Marx finished for being imprisoned for the Lebanese authorities under the accusation of looting of an archaeological small farm. Later, Marx also was withheld by the OLP for suspicion to have supported raids Israeli to the city of Tyro. Had to a dispute that had with the first-minister of the Bahamas, Marx meets forbidden to operate in this archipelago. Marx also collaborated with the Indonesia company of hunting to the treasure, PT Jayatama Istica Cipta, whose owner was the proper brother-in-law of Suharto- this company was involved in one intrigues international and threatened of death some other hunters of treasure its competitors in the exploration of the ship of Alfonso de Albuquerque, Flower of la Sea. In Spain, know-in the good. In 1978, he was accused to remove illegally artefactos Romans of shipwrecks in Palm of Majorca, by what he was forbidden to operate there. After some rocambolescas scenes with the director of the Museum of Cadiz, the Spanish Government, the 2 of April of 1985, interditou its operations of recovery in waters of the bay of Cadiz. Marx, although to affirm friend of the king of Spain with which he says to have stopped knowledge aquando of its exile in Cascais he tried, in 1992, to vender a false astrolábio to the Spanish Crown. The hoax alone was discovered because Estácio commander Dos Reis was called to make the examination of the part. Marx meets at this hindered moment to work in Brazil for the fact of, in 1983, to have vendido to the Belgian auctioneer Schumann an illegally removed bell of silver of the Utrecht carrack, been shipwrecked in the coast of the Bahia in 1648. Marx also affirmed to have joined amphoras Romans in the Bay of Guanabara, what she would make with that the first Europeans had been the Romans to reach Brazil - later came to know itself that the amphoras had been placed for a local diver there, Americo Santarelli. The accusation that is made to it of lack of ethical part of the commander of the Brazilian Navy, Max Justo Guedes, is corroborated by Jean Michel Eriau, a Frenchman that worked with Marx in Brazil and that it attributes to it, in its book Le Trésor DES Homards Verts the following affirmation “not you inquietes, these tansos will not go to dive connosco. They judge underneath that they control me but, of water, the diver only is that the important one is the master… is the authorization and these tubarões go conseguiz it for me.” In June of 1987, picaroto of name appeared in Açores one Manuel Oliveira who if said representative of Marx for the archipelago, that tries to make lobby for it and its companies. Marx follows, in 1994 and 1995, the same strategy of traffic of influences with as much success that she arrives to have a hearing with Mota Amaral, in April of 1995 and exactly obtains to pressure the American embassy and the senator Kennedy to give its support to it. It is as soon as appears in scene the director of the Museum Carlos Machado, great partisan of the concept that Marx has on the subaqueous património, and the investigator of the Department of Oceanografia and Pescas of the University of the Açores, Ricardo Santos - this last one exactly would be made use to collaborate with Marx in its subaqueous research in the seas of the Açores… He is also as soon as Professor Marques Guedes, the biggest specialist in Maritime law of the entire Country, that is along with everything and that it is as a God who all people respects - Marx dixit -, former-president of the Constitutional Court, former-professor of Santana Lopes and former-president of the extinct Commission of the Subaqueous Património read of same cartilha that Mr. Robert Marx, as by the way he demonstrated it in meeting that had with representatives of our group. When the Group of Archaeology of the Açores appeared the public, Robert Marx was felt threatened e, as such, directed it Third in the direction of in dimming them with same balelas with that it dimmed the other less eslarecidos ones. During the colloquy, Marx arengou during two hours on its subaqueous excellency until we collated it with its small scandals, its total lack of scientific espirito and its not existing ethics, what she annoyed it deeply. To conclude the quarrel, Robert Marx exaltou itself and cried out “Vocês thinks that the sea is alone yours! Therefore they are namely that I have money enough to buy this fucking island and pô them it to walk daqui for it are” It was seen.

Man this guy is a wack job. Remins me of some funddie Biblical archaeologists but sleazier.

So I'm a little ticked @ Pellegrino. He doesn't foot note, and the only reference to the Rio boat in the 'Selected' Bibliography is the 1982 NYT article. I can't find anything about this supposed Venezualan wreck. It might be in Marx's book, I used Google Book search, a bunch of pages are restricted.

Sleep time.

[Cecelia5578]

Samuel Eliot Morrison's The European Disovery of America went into great detail debunking pre-Vineland myths of an American discovery. Basically, it has to do with certain members of European ethnic groups in America wanting to claim that their ancestors bested Columbus, along with some pretty impressive gaps in logic overall.

[Colonel Olrik]

To conclude the quarrel, Robert Marx exaltou itself and cried out: You think that the sea is yours alone! I have enough money to buy this fucking island and put all of you out of here!”

After he said this we should have put him on a row boat in front of a Portuguese frigate and given him a minute of advance.

[Frank Hipper]

In trying to dig up some more info on Robert Marx and Guanabara bay at another board, someone had some pretty interesting things to say on artifacts that seemingly place ancient Europeans in the New World.

It was apparently a practice to use ancient trash midden materials, if convenient to a ship's crew, as sources of ballast.
This has led to finding ancient amphorae fragments, and other artifacts in several much later shipwrecks, and even discovering paleolithic flint cherts from the Thames esturary on Waikiki beach!