Why all the science hate?

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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

Ah, but at some level that's just memory work: remembering the quadratic formula. How many people can solve it precisely and analytically (ie- no computer equation solvers) without using the quadratic formula? :twisted:

Hint: the algebra technique for solving equations of this type is called "completing the square". The technique involves keeping the equation in its original form so that the constant is on the right-hand side and the variable terms are on the left-hand side, and then adding a constant to both sides of the equation so that the left-hand side becomes a perfect square of the form (x+a)^2 where a is a constant. This allows you to take the square root of both sides of the equation and eliminate the squared term so that you can perform a simple algebraic re-arrangement to get a direct solution. All of you should have learned this technique in high-school algebra, and it is in fact how the quadratic equation was derived. If you know the technique, you should be able to derive the quadratic equation without having to memorize it.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Darth Wong wrote:Ah, but at some level that's just memory work: remembering the quadratic formula. How many people can solve it precisely and analytically (ie- no computer equation solvers) without using the quadratic formula? :twisted:
Ok, I admit I am too tired so I just looked at your hints. But here it is

5x^2-10x=2

x^2-2x = 2/5
(x-1)^2 -1 = 0.4
(x-1)^2 = 1.4
x = square root (1.4) + 1
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Post by mr friendly guy »

mr friendly guy wrote: Ok, I admit I am too tired so I just looked at your hints. But here it is

5x^2-10x=2

x^2-2x = 2/5
(x-1)^2 -1 = 0.4
(x-1)^2 = 1.4
x = square root (1.4) + 1
Oops made a mistake in the last line which should read
x = +/ - square root (1.4) + 1
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

To be honest, I've likely come across that exact type of equation often enough, but by the fact that I've not needed to know how to do such arithmetic in the intervening time means I'm rusty as hell. I could've gone about figuring it out, if I was willing to reacquaint the one subject I hold actual contempt for.
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Post by kheegster »

Darth Wong wrote:Ah, but at some level that's just memory work: remembering the quadratic formula. How many people can solve it precisely and analytically (ie- no computer equation solvers) without using the quadratic formula? :twisted:
I have in fact learned how to complete the square in high school, but through 4 years of university physics I've never actually had to use it, so I've forgotten it. Although I ought to be able to spot the solution if my math ability were good enough. :oops:
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Post by Darth Wong »

Well, I did describe how the procedure is done, so anyone should be able to work it out by simply following my description unless he has a real problem with math. What's scary is that there are plenty of people out there who, even with the full text of my hint, pen and paper, and time to work it out, would still be unable to solve it.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

But then that's it, isn't it? A true gauge of intelligence, rather than being able to answer multiple choice questions on general knowledge. While I've not brought myself to going back into my maths class past, I could certainly do equations that are used more widely by erudite types, than what the average person would require in day-to-day life.
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Post by defanatic »

Well, I can prove the quadratic formula using only high school maths, so most people should be able to do it (although I have a tendency to over-estimate everyone else's abilities and under-estimate my own).
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Post by Darth Wong »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:But then that's it, isn't it? A true gauge of intelligence, rather than being able to answer multiple choice questions on general knowledge. While I've not brought myself to going back into my maths class past, I could certainly do equations that are used more widely by erudite types, than what the average person would require in day-to-day life.
That's the thing; you obviously learned it and continued in math afterwards, which means it wasn't at the limits of your comprehension. Remember those dolts in high school who struggled mightily with basic concepts such as completing the square? Who somehow managed to get marks like C and D on tests where all they did was repeatedly test your ability to perform this simple procedure, and the only reasonable error would be the occasional simple arithmetic brain fart? Or the guys who thought that basic Euclidean geometry was so hard that they had to cheat on tests in order to get by?

They were the people who only barely grasped it the first time around with a mighty effort, and would never be able to sit down and quickly refresh their memories of it with a simple hint like the one I gave. And they are the same people who walk around today bearing the incredible conceit that they've figured out a really obvious problem with a scientific theory that somehow eluded the entire scientific community.
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Post by OmegaGuy »

Good to see I'm not quite as bad at math as I thought, since I got the right answer.
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Post by dworkin »

Molyneux wrote:Eh...it's not really a 'will go extinct' so much as a 'may go extinct', unless you count offshoot species (with the decline of baseline human) as "extinct".
Seen any habilines recently?

Modern humans will go extinct. Eventually our descendants (if we have any) will be so different we would not be able to interbreed with them. Of course for some people today, that's as soon as next tuesday :P
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Darth Wong wrote:Hint: the algebra technique for solving equations of this type is called "completing the square". The technique involves keeping the equation in its original form so that the constant is on the right-hand side and the variable terms are on the left-hand side, and then adding a constant to both sides of the equation so that the left-hand side becomes a perfect square of the form (x+a)^2 where a is a constant. This allows you to take the square root of both sides of the equation and eliminate the squared term so that you can perform a simple algebraic re-arrangement to get a direct solution. All of you should have learned this technique in high-school algebra, and it is in fact how the quadratic equation was derived. If you know the technique, you should be able to derive the quadratic equation without having to memorize it.
My school failed me by not teaching this.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Hint: the algebra technique for solving equations of this type is called "completing the square". The technique involves keeping the equation in its original form so that the constant is on the right-hand side and the variable terms are on the left-hand side, and then adding a constant to both sides of the equation so that the left-hand side becomes a perfect square of the form (x+a)^2 where a is a constant. This allows you to take the square root of both sides of the equation and eliminate the squared term so that you can perform a simple algebraic re-arrangement to get a direct solution. All of you should have learned this technique in high-school algebra, and it is in fact how the quadratic equation was derived. If you know the technique, you should be able to derive the quadratic equation without having to memorize it.
My school failed me by not teaching this.
I've heard bad things about the Louisiana school system, but ... holy shit. They never covered it?
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Post by Ace Pace »

Darth Wong wrote: I've heard bad things about the Louisiana school system, but ... holy shit. They never covered it?
My school system(Israel) covered it in a basic fashion, with a "This is the formula, for those who care, it was achived by [insert your explanation here], now about its use.."

This is something I suspect that is oriented at math classes at a high level(for high school) and that most people are just fed the formula. :?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Completing the square is a basic algebra operation. They covered it in my high school long before covering the quadratic formula. You were expected to understand how to complete the square as a wholly separate milestone, before being taught how to derive and then use the quadratic formula. Either math standards really do vary quite massively from region to region or the worst of the rumours I've heard about declining math standards in the current generation are true.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Darth Wong wrote:Completing the square is a basic algebra operation. They covered it in my high school long before covering the quadratic formula. You were expected to understand how to complete the square as a wholly separate milestone, before being taught how to derive and then use the quadratic formula. Either math standards really do vary quite massively from region to region or the worst of the rumours I've heard about declining math standards in the current generation are true.
Math standards are quite differant, and are slipping worldwide apprently. Definetly in Israel. :?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Ace Pace wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Completing the square is a basic algebra operation. They covered it in my high school long before covering the quadratic formula. You were expected to understand how to complete the square as a wholly separate milestone, before being taught how to derive and then use the quadratic formula. Either math standards really do vary quite massively from region to region or the worst of the rumours I've heard about declining math standards in the current generation are true.
Math standards are quite differant, and are slipping worldwide apprently. Definetly in Israel. :?
Well, in any case, any jackass who presumes to correct the scientific community and doesn't know how to do a piddly-ass basic algebra operation like completing the square should shut the fuck up.

It's one thing for someone to know and respect his own limitations and defer to scientists; that is a perfectly reasonable position and one which I can respect. However, it's quite another thing for someone to ignore his own limitations and think that he operates on the same intellectual level as scientists, or perhaps even a higher level, despite having the math skills of a child.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by Ace Pace »

Darth Wong wrote: Well, in any case, any jackass who presumes to correct the scientific community and doesn't know how to do a piddly-ass basic algebra operation like completing the square should shut the fuck up.

It's one thing for someone to know and respect his own limitations and defer to scientists; that is a perfectly reasonable position and one which I can respect. However, it's quite another thing for someone to ignore his own limitations and think that he operates on the same intellectual level as scientists, or perhaps even a higher level, despite having the math skills of a child.
Very true, on some note, you see this happen less in Israel then in the U.S. I suppose I can relate this to the tradition here of High education and the benefit given to those people seen as 'saving the country'. However, there will always be jackasses who are convinced they are smart and they 'just arn't scienctifically minded' and therfor sprout about stuff they neither understand nor ever will.

Quickly skimming Pisa archives(Pisa is an international organisation that tests High school students), the results arn't encouraging. Most OPEC countries do not do esspecially well(Belgium,Finland,Japan are listed as well preforming countries), with countries low in the list of math skills are Italy, Portugal and U.S.

Interesting to note, from skimming another paper on the website, is that U.S students are some of the most self-confident regarding their math skills.
Danish students are also the most confident in mathematics and only they and students from the United
States think about how well they do in mathematics in terms that are generally positive
Which seems kinda contradictory with their scores in the paper.

Countries which score the highest in these tests seem to have the lowest level of jackasses talking about how science is BS or supporting Creationism.
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Post by OmegaGuy »

Darth Wong wrote:Completing the square is a basic algebra operation. They covered it in my high school long before covering the quadratic formula. You were expected to understand how to complete the square as a wholly separate milestone, before being taught how to derive and then use the quadratic formula. Either math standards really do vary quite massively from region to region or the worst of the rumours I've heard about declining math standards in the current generation are true.
That's funny, they taught me the quadratic formula first, then completing the square.

Also, as for people (mostly creationists and such) who attempt to challenge modern science, there are a lot of them that think that scientists do know what they're talking about, but they're all involved in some big conspiracy or something. :roll:
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Post by Kuroneko »

Taking Mr. Wong's hint as a challenge to do the problem without the standard technique of completing the square, take an equation in the form ax²+bx+c=0. Then, assuming two solutions, y and z, we should have (1) y+z = -b/a and (2) yz = c/a [1], so that y²-2yz+z² = b²/a² - 4c/a = (b²-4ac)/a², and therefore (3) (y-z) = ±sqrt[b²-4ac]/a. Together, (1) and (3) form a simple linear system that yields the quadratic formula.

[1] This can either be see from factoring or easy tricks like substraction: a(x²-y²) + b(x-y) = 0, so a(x+y) = -b, etc. The general form of these relations are the Vieta-Girard formulae. [Edit: mistaken for Newton-Girard formulae; fixed.]
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Post by Pick »

I learned completing the square in Algebra --7th grade year. Then we got the Quadratic Formula and never completed the square again until about, oh, last week for a review of partial factions for integration in my college Calc II course.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Darth Wong wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Hint: the algebra technique for solving equations of this type is called "completing the square". The technique involves keeping the equation in its original form so that the constant is on the right-hand side and the variable terms are on the left-hand side, and then adding a constant to both sides of the equation so that the left-hand side becomes a perfect square of the form (x+a)^2 where a is a constant. This allows you to take the square root of both sides of the equation and eliminate the squared term so that you can perform a simple algebraic re-arrangement to get a direct solution. All of you should have learned this technique in high-school algebra, and it is in fact how the quadratic equation was derived. If you know the technique, you should be able to derive the quadratic equation without having to memorize it.
My school failed me by not teaching this.
I've heard bad things about the Louisiana school system, but ... holy shit. They never covered it?
In my high school (a Catholic one at that), it was only partially covered and the teachers kept jerking from one set of theorems and formulas to the other at random. There was no consistency in my maths education which is probably one reason I've very little talent in that area.
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Post by Molyneux »

Okay, with completing the square I arrive at an answer of x=sqrt(7/5)+1

Hopefully that's accurate.

As for humanity going extinct - I don't CARE if the standard human form exists a billion years from now. If our descendants are thriving, no matter how changed (as long as they remain intelligent and, hopefully, rather more technologically-advanced than we), then as I define 'humanity', humanity will survive.
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Post by muse »

Pick wrote:I learned completing the square in Algebra --7th grade year. Then we got the Quadratic Formula and never completed the square again until about, oh, last week for a review of partial factions for integration in my college Calc II course.
I think we did completing the square in 8th grade when I was overseas, then we moved back to Canada and I didn't see it again till grade 11, when we also learned the Quadratic Formula.
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Darth Wong wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Hint: the algebra technique for solving equations of this type is called "completing the square". The technique involves keeping the equation in its original form so that the constant is on the right-hand side and the variable terms are on the left-hand side, and then adding a constant to both sides of the equation so that the left-hand side becomes a perfect square of the form (x+a)^2 where a is a constant. This allows you to take the square root of both sides of the equation and eliminate the squared term so that you can perform a simple algebraic re-arrangement to get a direct solution. All of you should have learned this technique in high-school algebra, and it is in fact how the quadratic equation was derived. If you know the technique, you should be able to derive the quadratic equation without having to memorize it.
My school failed me by not teaching this.
I've heard bad things about the Louisiana school system, but ... holy shit. They never covered it?
Pft. They taught us this in middle school in New Mexico, but never touched on it after that. I don't even remember the processes with which I got through physics, biology, chem, etc. afterward. Or Statistics, for that matter. O.o
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