Supermassive Star Destroyers: where do you draw the line?

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-10-11 06:08pm

Pardon for any wrong terms in this post, since I'm not too familiar with Dreadnoughts, Battlecruisers, and the alternate designation for ISDs.

I know there's a lot of criticism of fan designs of bigger ISDs, and such. Now that I think of it, a lot of the EU stuff has gratuitously large SDs. So, if you could have changed the EU, what size would you have made the upper limit of all SSDs/dreadnoughts, with no exceptions?

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-10-11 06:39pm

The Pellaeon-class is a mainline battleship like the Imperator-- it's no larger than its predecessor.

I don't think anyone complains about super warships, of which all we have for certain are the Executor, Eclipse, Mandator, and never completed Sovereign class, along with a mess of unnamed vessels in Marvel and Classic Star Wars. There's hardly an excess of these.

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2006-10-11 07:00pm

The thing to keep in mind is that Death Star is a warship and even the Eclipse and Sovereign class warships don't come anywhere close to it in terms of size, firepower or firepower per unit of volume.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-10-11 07:04pm

My biggest reason for disliking many of the EU designs is how lackluster they are. Literally most of them are take an ISD and multiply by so much and sometimes add new shiny toy.

Size literally doesn't matter as Lucas himself put out the largest toy of them all, and no one even batted an eye. So no upper limit, but at least do something other then the SAME wedge design...

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-10-11 07:27pm

I always thought those Eclipse and Sovereign Star Destroyers were idiotic. What's even worse now is the call to make them bigger than they are, due to the proper scale of the Executor being recognized. Why do they HAVE to be bigger?

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-10-11 07:41pm

Lord Poe wrote:I always thought those Eclipse and Sovereign Star Destroyers were idiotic. What's even worse now is the call to make them bigger than they are, due to the proper scale of the Executor being recognized. Why do they HAVE to be bigger?

That's my reaction too. I don't see how having ships even bigger than the Executor is really all that necessary to the Empire, given the types of enemies they faced. Seems like they need more ISD-size vessels so they can monitor and control the populus, not a few bigger ships. Now, there IS the desire to break down planetary shields, but with the Death Star that shouldn't have been an issue, so I'm making line in the sand between battlestations and starships in specific.

The Executor also had a specific sense of scale. It was long and thin, and given the other Imperial designs, it just seemed that it was leaning aesthetically towards a longer-not-deeper ship. Anything much bigger that follows the same proportions as the ISD->SSD precedent would be wafer thin.

Sure, you can make 'em thicker and such, but at that point, it's really not a Star Destroyer anymore, is it? If you're talking about ANY ships bigger than SSD's, I can and do see the reason for vessels of that size, especially for any force post-Empire that wants to be able to breach a planetary shield without making a Death Star--since that's a symbol of the old order. But I'm not sure what to call those, nor do I think they need to be a ship at all. A shieldbreaker could just be a big piece of artillery mounted on a barely mobile starbase, and I'd call that a battlestation.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-11 07:51pm

Like most people here, look at the death star, it's fucking massive and nobody had a problem with it. Just be original with the design. There should be a rule instituted that says no more dagger/triangle shaped ships in the EU.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2006-10-11 08:01pm

Other: My limit is when all matter in the star wars galaxy has been consumed in construction of one ultimate Galaxy Destroyer to spread destruction through out the universe.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-10-11 09:22pm

You mean the fan-created "Ultra Star Destroyer" Imperium?

I suppose another problem (albeit very very minor) with creating every-larger battleships (as in the FS series with Shivan SDs) is coming up with even-uber names. Imperium has a nice ring to it, a simple, straight-laced ring of oppressive finality. But what if you wanted to build an even bigger ship?

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-10-11 09:24pm

My only caveat would be that larger warships should have a role that justifies their immense size. With the Death Star it can argued that it had to be at least that large in order to accomodate its supermassive power and weapons systems.

Putting superlasers on relatively tiny ships like the Eclipse or Darksaber always struck me as a different kind of wank.

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » 2006-10-11 09:33pm

havokeff wrote:Like most people here, look at the death star, it's fucking massive and nobody had a problem with it. Just be original with the design. There should be a rule instituted that says no more dagger/triangle shaped ships in the EU.

I think the dagger shape is OK. It provides excellent firing arcs, and serves as a psychological weapon (although Freud would have a few things to say about it).

The basic design however, should change over time (eg. moving the bridge tower to a more secure location).

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-10-11 10:08pm

Change the dagger shape, why? The triangular design is the signature profile for Kuat Drive Yards ships, just like Corellian cargo ships tend to have a disc shape, or Mon Calamari Cruisers tend to look like some kind of oceanic beast. Changing the shape of a Star Destroyer is akin to deciding to change the basic layout of a supercarrier.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-11 10:33pm

While I don't have a problem with the repetitive use of the triangle shape or the idea of other ships similar to the Executor's size, I do find it irritating that the EU writers feel the need to exceed Mr. Lucas' onscreen designs in size. And I think that if they wanted to make a smaller superlaser platform, it should have looked different than the standard profile because it must surely be considerably different on the inside. It would have been more interesting to make it a dedicated weapon platform which requires warship escort, as opposed to "SSD with superlaser tacked on and big Space Battleship Yamato keel for that anime look".

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-10-12 12:45am

The Executor. I'm sick of fanboyish attempts to make "bigger and scarier ships".

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-10-12 01:08am

What was the biggest and baddest non-Imperial, or at least non-aligned vessel? MonCals? ISDs of all shapes and sizes in their various flavors seem fairly more badass than anything the Rebels were fielding in general, and some of the specific rebel ships that might have been superior seemed to be so rare as to be a relative non-distinction. Without the ability of an enemy to field a vessel capable of even safely engaging a Star Destroyer of average size, I can't see much reason for things bigger than the Executor--which seemed like a great sort of fleet command flagship.

It's not that they couldn't persay, but if the rebels can now make ships that can take an ISD in a 50/50 fight, why not build something twice as big as an ISD and dominate it for a fraction of the cost of an SSD, let alone the massive costs of such something bigger?

Now, if there was another political force out there that was capable (if not at the time of ROTJ, at some point during the Empire's rise) of fielding SSD-comperable ships, maybe then we need something bigger. What about those Trade Fed doughnut ships? I remember getting my ass beat by some pretty substantial numbers proving them to be effective, in one or another variant. If those ships are all over, that might change things.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-12 01:15am

General Schatten wrote:Change the dagger shape, why? The triangular design is the signature profile for Kuat Drive Yards ships, just like Corellian cargo ships tend to have a disc shape, or Mon Calamari Cruisers tend to look like some kind of oceanic beast. Changing the shape of a Star Destroyer is akin to deciding to change the basic layout of a supercarrier.

I don't want to get rid of the dagger shape, I just don't want to see it used for new ships. I shoulda' been more clear. Circles, rectangles, octagons, squares... just no more dagger/triangles.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-12 01:50am

The Mon Cals are the victims of this "pleasure cruise ship" nonsense. In theory, the MC90 should be able to match the ISDI, and the Mediator battlecruiser that followed should more than match the ISDI/II.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-10-12 01:54am

I'm curious as to whether the Home One class is not a match for an ISD, being ~ twice it's size.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-12 01:58am

Stas Bush wrote:I'm curious as to whether the Home One class is not a match for an ISD, being ~ twice it's size.

If you go by WEG stats, of course not. By and far, WEG stats is the worst representation of warship stats, even worse when the authors and what not used them

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-10-12 03:17am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:I'm curious as to whether the Home One class is not a match for an ISD, being ~ twice it's size.
If you go by WEG stats, of course not. By and far, WEG stats is the worst representation of warship stats, even worse when the authors and what not used them

SWTC's down, or I'd have gone there, but I was talking about on average. If the rebels manage to construct a few ISD-Killer super ships, but can only field one or two of the darn things then it's hardly impressive compared to the total number of ISD's and SSD's the Empire has. Which is why I don't think it's real important for the Empire to have ships that are so big they can take out SSD's if nobody else can even take the standard SSD's they've got out there already.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-12 03:39am

Having found and compiled sources (mostly connected with the production of ROTJ) for the MC80 battleship article on Wookieepedia (the name being an amalgation of the two words used to describe the Home One), I've seen more than enough to believe WEG's minimalist stats are completely bunk. There's even several consistent shots in the film where something from the Rebel fleet shoots km-long bolts past or into ISDs (even taking time to animate them going behind ISDs, so there's no filmatic mistake), so if it's not Calamarian battleships like the HO, there's definitely something in their fleet that can kick ass. There's also the Bulwark-class battlecruiser from Rebellion, so the Rebels have at least two >>ISD warship classes in their arsenal.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-10-12 06:11am

I've seen more than enough to believe WEG's minimalist stats are completely bunk. There's even several consistent shots in the film where something from the Rebel fleet shoots km-long bolts past or into ISDs

Incidentally, is it not a HO class that, in the scene with Ackbar in ROTJ, strikes an ISD with two long bolts and blows up it's batteries and reactor, causing the ship to explode?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-12 06:17am

Im not quite sure, the bolts seem to be coming from a point below/behind the one visible to the left.

Invictus ChiKen · Post by **Invictus ChiKen** » 2006-10-12 08:22am

You know honestly I could see the use for an Impierium class ship.

Seriously the ship does seem to have a good purpose. At least for extra-galatic missions.

Think about it. Your in a forigen galaxy, no power base. No infurstructer. We've talked this over considered Star Wars vs. Star Trek. Think of the whole logistics issue against a space faring nation of equal power...

Suddenly the Impierium class makes alot more sense to me.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-12 08:25am

But why a dagger shape? Why not do a sphere like most of these other huge superweapons/carriers, when you get to near/DS I levels in size?

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Supermassive Star Destroyers: where do you draw the line?

Which SSD class should have been the biggest one?

Supermassive Star Destroyers: where do you draw the line?