Faith-based missiles

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Faith-based missiles

Post by Medic »

SecularHumanism.org wrote:Design for a Faith-Based Missile
by Richard Dawkins

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 22, Number 1.

A guided missile corrects its trajectory as it flies, homing in, say, on the heat of a jet plane's exhaust. A great improvement on a simple ballistic shell, it still cannot discriminate particular targets. It could not zero in on a designated New York skyscraper if launched from as far away as Boston. That is precisely what a modern "smart missile" can do. Computer miniaturisation has advanced to the point where one of today's smart missiles could be programmed with an image of the Manhattan skyline together with instructions to home in on the North Tower of the World Trade Center. Smart missiles of this sophistication are possessed by the United States, as we learned in the Gulf War, but they are economically beyond ordinary terrorists and scientifically beyond theocratic governments. Might there be a cheaper and easier alternative?

In the Second World War, before electronics became cheap and miniature, the psychologist B. F. Skinner did some research on pigeon-guided missiles. The pigeon was to sit in a tiny cockpit, having previously been trained to peck keys in such a way as to keep a designated target in the centre of a screen. In the missile, the target would be for real. The principle worked, although it was never put into practice by the US authorities. Even factoring in the costs of training them, pigeons are cheaper and lighter than computers of comparable effectiveness. Their feats in Skinner boxes suggest that a pigeon, after a regimen of training with color slides, really could guide a missile to a distinctive landmark at the southern end of Manhattan Island.

Pigeons may be cheap and disposable as on-board guidance systems, but there's no escaping the cost of the missile itself. And no such missile large enough to do much damage could penetrate United States airspace without being intercepted. What is needed is a missile that is not recognized for what it is until too late. Something like a large civilian airliner, carrying the innocuous markings of a well-known carrier and a great deal of fuel. That's the easy part. But how do we smuggle on board the necessary guidance system? You can hardly expect the pilots to surrender the left hand seat to a pigeon or a computer.

How about using humans as on-board guidance systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior. Humans have a proven track record in taking over planes by the use of threats, which work because the legitimate pilots value their own lives and those of their passengers. The natural assumption that the hijacker ultimately values his own life too, and will act rationally to preserve it, leads air crews and ground staff to make calculated decisions that would not work with guidance modules lacking a sense of self-preservation. If your plane is being hijacked by an armed man who, though prepared to take risks, presumably wants to go on living, there is room for bargaining. A rational pilot complies with the hijacker's wishes, gets the plane down on the ground, has hot food sent in for the passengers, and leaves the negotiations to people trained to negotiate.

The problem with the human guidance system is precisely this. Unlike the pigeon version, it knows that a successful mission culminates in its own destruction. Could we develop a biological guidance system with the compliance and dispensability of a pigeon but with a man's resourcefulness and ability to infiltrate plausibly? What we need, in a nutshell, is a human who doesn't mind being blown up. He'd make the perfect on-board guidance system. But suicide-enthusiasts are hard to find. Even terminal cancer patients might lose their nerve when the crash was actually looming.

Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper. If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this. It's a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn't we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards? Don't be daft! No, listen, it might work. Offer them a fast track to a Great Oasis in the Sky, cooled by everlasting fountains. Harps and wings wouldn't appeal to the sort of young men we need, so tell them there's a special martyr's reward of 72 virgin brides, guaranteed eager and exclusive. Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men might go for 72 private virgins in the next world.

It's a tall story, but worth a try. You'd have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology, to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so, incidentally, though the irony passes unnoticed, than America itself). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.
__________________________________________________

Facetious? Trivialising an unspeakable evil? That is the exact opposite of my intention, which is deadly serious and prompted by deep grief and fierce anger. I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite—or too devout—to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don't mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one's own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.

If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed sexual promises—ludicrous and degrading to women though they are—and is it any wonder that naïve and frustrated young men are clamoring to be selected for suicide missions?

There is no doubt that the afterlife-obsessed suicidal brain really is a weapon of immense power and danger. It is comparable to a smart missile, and its guidance system is in many respects superior to the most sophisticated electronic brain that money can buy. Yet to a cynical government, organization, or priesthood, it is very very cheap.

Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliché: mindless cowardice. Mindless may be a suitable word for the vandalizing of a telephone booth. It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11th. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from. It came from religion. Religion is also, of course, the underlying source of the divisiveness in the Middle East which motivated the use of this deadly weapon in the first place. But that is another story and not my concern here. My concern here is with the weapon itself. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.
Points of interest bolded.

I really hate how for some reason pointing out that a lack of belief inherently results in a mindset conducive to rational decision making seems to make no headway against the afterlife-incentive meme.

That being of course the fallacious claim that the removal of the afterlife-incentive inherently results in impulsive crime sprees. A person's conscience, the concept of intelligent self-interest or conducting oneself in a manner that won't result in imprisonment or suicide by cop because of society-at-large not giving a fuck about shattered worldviews, and, uh, the more than 27 million Americans fighting that innate desirebe damned. Fucking circular reasoning, appealing to consequence of unfounded belief and the authority of sky-pixies.

It's amazing that this line of reasoning predicts immorality and irreconciliable actions in secularists and atheists wholly underepresented in prison and, it seems, faith-based missiles.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Good article from Dawkins.

The other thing as you say, how religious people predict immorality from non religious which is not matched by the evidence. A lot of these people are inherently anti-science, so its not surprising they don't understand that in science if your hypothesis makes predictions which are not matched by evidence, then its wrong. If they understood that they would be able to see why that claim, and the existence of their God is flawed.
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Post by R. U. Serious »

Although he is constantly referring to "Religion", I believe he is really talking about a greater category of things, of which Religion is only one item. It's not only the promise of an afterlife that has the effect of de-valuing one's own and other people's life, it's generally "ideas that are greater than oneself", or Ideologies. The LTTE Black Tigers are not religious people, they don't expect an afterlife. Neither were the Nazis that willingly died for their cause. I also don't believe the Japanese Kamikze pilots were mostly religiously motivated. And there's probably plenty more examples. Now it could be argued that "the same pat of the brain" (to oversimplify it a bit) is responsible for the actions, and I wouldn't disagree. But my point is that pinning this behaviour only on religion is missing the bigger picture.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Neither were the Nazis that willingly died for their cause.
Oh, that one is probably right on afterlife. Christianity or Paganism, but anyway the Nazis were promised a comfortable future:
"A Godly soldier of the Reich is superior to godless jew-bolshevikz!"
I also don't believe the Japanese Kamikze pilots were mostly religiously motivated.
WHAT? With the Japanese Emperor being literally, um, LIVING GOD, and all that? "I don't believe"? That just doesn't fly. They were religiously motivated for all there is.
But my point is that pinning this behaviour only on religion is missing the bigger picture.
It's not. Religions or quasi-religions exhibit such traits. Both religions and quasi-religions require abandoning rational analysis, faith and worship, generally in gods or other manmade deities.
It's not only the promise of an afterlife that has the effect of de-valuing one's own and other people's life, it's generally "ideas that are greater than oneself", or Ideologies.
Oh really? How does a humanist "ideology" devalue own life? Even though it can be considered more than life, and many humanists have died for their ideas. How can an allegiance to science more than life "devalue" life? Many people died for scientific convictions - which were based on rational thought.

No, I would say it is specific to religions or quasi-religious cults, cults that take on the methods and mechanisms of religion.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

The point is that eventhough nonreligious philosophies, ideologies may be more than life, they do not give a false promise of afterlife.

Which makes a very important distinction - people who act in the name of something greater than they are do so with full awareness that they die, and there may not be any magic pixie, in fact, may not be anything in the afterlife.

This requires a far greater degree of resolve and certainity, than dying in faith. This requires a greater understanding. And this is not as easy as sacrificing a life in beliefe that you'll live eternally in heaven thereafter.

So I always hold atheists soldiers in much higher regard then those fundie fighters who die with "Praise be to Allah" on their lips.
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Post by Winston Blake »

To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.
It's a matter of whether people can be trusted with power. Guns allow a person to do something they would ordinarily be incapable of - apply a large force to a distant object, a power which is often used to kill people. The worldview of a paradise afterlife allows a person (or subordinate) to release the normal limits on how much suffering they're willing to endure and inflict. Similarly, this power is often used to kill people. The possession of some ideas grants people too much power, but obviously, ideas can multiply infinitely and can't be registered.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

The possession of some ideas grants people too much power, but obviously, ideas can multiply infinitely and can't be registered.
But improving people's education can lead them to reject these ideas basing on logical thought and knowledge. If that is not done, people will easily follow the most radical afterlife-beliefs. So in a sense, the uneducated mob gives power to the priests and their ideas, not the priests' ideas themselves allow to grab power.

Would an educated and knowledgeable person, well-accustomed to logical thinking, a scientists perhaps as example, follow an Abrahamic religion with fundie zeal? No, I don't think so.
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Post by R. U. Serious »

It's interesting how you completely ignored my reference to the LTTE Black Tigers. Do read up on them, I think it is a data point that goes clearly against the theory that a promise of an afterlife is necessary for suicide attacks.

I only have a superficial knowledge of Japanese Kamikaze Fighters, so I probably shouldn't have brought that up as an example. I concede that example/argument.
But my point is that pinning this behaviour only on religion is missing the bigger picture.
It's not. Religions or quasi-religions exhibit such traits. Both religions and quasi-religions require abandoning rational analysis, faith and worship, generally in gods or other manmade deities.
It sounds like you didn't understand what I meant to say. I never said that religions do not exhibit such traits, I said that it is not merely religions that eexhibit that trait, but that it is Ideologies as well, I would go even so far as to group religions below Ideologies. As (a random set of) Ideologies with certain mystical components.

It's not only the promise of an afterlife that has the effect of de-valuing one's own and other people's life, it's generally "ideas that are greater than oneself", or Ideologies.
Oh really? How does a humanist "ideology" devalue own life? Even though it can be considered more than life, and many humanists have died for their ideas. How can an allegiance to science more than life "devalue" life?
It doesn't. And I never would claim that. There are also religions/religious sects that do not devalue one's own life. It does not disprove the general point being made.
Also why are you bringing "allegiance to science" into this? It's just plain stupid. Science is not an Ideology, in fact most Ideologies have just as much contempt for science and reason as do some of the religions. I have the impression that you are implying a black-white fallacy between religion and reason, which doesn't even come lose to the reality of our world.
The point is that eventhough nonreligious philosophies, ideologies may be more than life, they do not give a false promise of afterlife.
Which totally ignores, that I have already explained and showed examples of suicide attacks by people that are not religios, which are motivated by other factors than "afterlife". Not that the promise of an afterlife doesn't have an effect (I am sure it helps with some kind of people), but it's not the main contributing factor.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Do read up on them, I think it is a data point that goes clearly against the theory that a promise of an afterlife is necessary for suicide attacks.
And it's nice how you completely ignored the point that it's a helluvalot easier to make suicide attacks WITH such a promise, than without it.
Science is not an Ideology, in fact most Ideologies have just as much contempt for science and reason as do some of the religions.
Science is not an ideology, correct. However, some people valued scienfitic truth more than their own life.
I have the impression that you are implying a black-white fallacy between religion and reason, which doesn't even come lose to the reality of our world.
Black and white fallacy? Religion and all forms thereof are enemies of science and reason, have always been, milder or harsher, but they are. Faith is irrational by definition, so they are against rationality.
Which totally ignores, that I have already explained and showed examples of suicide attacks by people that are not religios, which are motivated by other factors than "afterlife".
Did you just fucking miss out that it was HARDER FOR THEM to abandon their life, if they know that there's no heavenly afterlife with a ton of virgins to fuck, did you?
Not that the promise of an afterlife doesn't have an effect (I am sure it helps with some kind of people), but it's not the main contributing factor.
Oh, wow. "Not the main contributing factor". It's a factor that makes it EASIER to die, nevermind also the fact that it will be a death for a totally irrational Sky Pixie beliefs, as opposed to the death of a person for non-religious ideas. You do understand that it's harder for people to die for something greater than life WITHOUT afterlife bullshit, than with it?
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Post by R. U. Serious »

Stas Bush wrote:
I have the impression that you are implying a black-white fallacy between religion and reason, which doesn't even come lose to the reality of our world.
Black and white fallacy? Religion and all forms thereof are enemies of science and reason, have always been, milder or harsher, but they are. Faith is irrational by definition, so they are against rationality.
You again miss my point; which was that you can be atheist and still be a stupid dumbass that doesn't give shit for reason or rationality. In fact there's plenty of such people. Simply "eliminatating" Religion from the equation does not get rid of "thos loaded weapons that are left on the sidewalk".
You do understand that it's harder for people to die for something greater than life WITHOUT afterlife bullshit, than with it?
In fact, I've epxlicitly said so. Which makes it all the clearer that most of what I am saying is flying right by you, because it doesn't fit your preconceived "buckets" in which you are trying to fit my position.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

You again miss my point; which was that you can be atheist and still be a stupid dumbass that doesn't give shit for reason or rationality.
It's harder to be an atheist and a stupid dumbass, than to be a religious and a stupid dumbass.
In fact there's plenty of such people.
Plenty? Statistics on atheist crime, anyone? How many suicides in the name of atheism? But since atheism is not really a positive ideology (it doesn't call for anything but the abandonement of god-beliefs), let's get a clearer example. Where are humanist terrorists? Even all communist terrorists, which believed in communism so strongly that it was a quasi-religion anyway, are left in the previous century.

Let me stress it again:
Religion and all forms thereof are enemies of science and reason

There are other forms of religious bullshit than Abrahamic religion, but you do understand that Abrahamic religions are the most influential faith-based idiocy in the world right now and had been so for centuries? Isn't it obvious that if we were dealing with threats of irrational, Abrahamic religions would be on top of the list?
Simply "eliminatating" Religion from the equation does not get rid of "thos loaded weapons that are left on the sidewalk".
It makes FEWER weapons lay on the fucking sidewalk. Taking an AK-47 from the sidewalk, but leaving a gas gun doesn't eliminate all religious problems, but it sure as hell HELPS.
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Post by R. U. Serious »

Stas Bush wrote:It's harder to be an atheist and a stupid dumbass, than to be a religious and a stupid dumbass.
Nonsense. That may be true where you live, but it's not true everywhere in the world. It's certainly not an inherent quality of atheism. How do you backup such a claim?
In fact there's plenty of such people.
Plenty? Statistics on atheist crime, anyone? How many suicides in the name of atheism?[/quote]

What kind of ignorant stupid dumbass Fucker are you? You're constantly trying to shift my position to things I have never explicitly no implicitly claimed, asshole. "in the name of atheism"? Asshole. I was talking about atheists that are comiting suicide attacks in the name of an Ideology. Learn to fucking read, you dipshit. I have never been talking of atheism as an Ideology, you moron.

Here is an article that might give you a clue:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.c ... id=2329785
Let me stress it again:
Religion and all forms thereof are enemies of science and reason
My god, you are the prime example of an ignorant, stupid,l logically challaenged Person with severe comprehension-disablity, who happens to be an atheist. I've never in my above arugment defended religion - SO WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT in constantly tring to ascribe positions to me that I didn't express.
Simply "eliminatating" Religion from the equation does not get rid of "thos loaded weapons that are left on the sidewalk".
It makes FEWER weapons lay on the fucking sidewalk. Taking an AK-47 from the sidewalk, but leaving a gas gun doesn't eliminate all religious problems, but it sure as hell HELPS.
No, I would compare "Faith" to "Addiction", simply outlawing or doing away with certain substances does not change the inherent attributes of human brains. Some people are simply predestined more towards addictive behaviour than other people. Taking away the pills from an addict doesn't turn him into a reasonable person, and in the same way a person who his whole life has never gotten in contact with any illegal drugs can still easily fuck up his life due to an addiction.
And since you're a fuckup who will definitely misunderstand my point here yet again, let me make clear that I am equating faith and addiction; but that this is merely an analogy.
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Post by Darth Wong »

R. U. Serious wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:It's harder to be an atheist and a stupid dumbass, than to be a religious and a stupid dumbass.
Nonsense. That may be true where you live, but it's not true everywhere in the world. It's certainly not an inherent quality of atheism. How do you backup such a claim?
Unusual intelligence is not an innate tendency of atheism, but some level of particular stupidity and/or self-delusion is an innate tendency of religion, particularly of the fundamentalist variety.

To take a particular example, I knew even as a child the first time I heard the Noah's Ark story that it didn't make any sense at all. How could you fit them all onto the boat? What did they eat? Why didn't they eat each other? These were all questions that immediately leapt to my mind even as a child, never mind the many more questions that leap to mind as an adult. So when someone believes this story literally took place rather than being just another children's fable, it's not unreasonable to surmise that there's something wrong with him.
No, I would compare "Faith" to "Addiction", simply outlawing or doing away with certain substances does not change the inherent attributes of human brains. Some people are simply predestined more towards addictive behaviour than other people. Taking away the pills from an addict doesn't turn him into a reasonable person, and in the same way a person who his whole life has never gotten in contact with any illegal drugs can still easily fuck up his life due to an addiction.
Actually, to look more carefully at the addiction analogy, the statistics on gambling problems and the proliferation of casinos has shown that easy availability and promotion exacerbates the problem. So even if we postulate that the addictive personalities may be present in some fixed quantity regardless of the presence of the addictive agent, they are more able to resist their own compulsions and weaknesses if the agent is either not present or not easily accessible. No one can seriously argue that the massively pervasive influence of religion does not have some effect on the likelihood of faith adoption.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Nonsense.
Are you a fucking IDIOT? Religion by DEFINITION requires irrational beliefs. Atheism, by definition, doesn't. So it's HARDER to be an irrational atheist, but it's by definition that RELIGION IS IRRATIONAL. If you don't get it, let me spell it out clearly: religion demands irrationality, atheism doesn't.
I was talking about atheists that are comiting suicide attacks in the name of an Ideology
Yes! Let's talk about atheists commiting suicide in the name of secular humanism. I even proposed this:
I, post ago wrote:But since atheism is not really a positive ideology (it doesn't call for anything but the abandonement of god-beliefs), let's get a clearer example. Where are humanist terrorists? Even all communist terrorists, which believed in communism so strongly that it was a quasi-religion anyway, are left in the previous century.
Learn to fucking READ, moron.
I've never in my above arugment defended religion - SO WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT in constantly tring to ascribe positions to me that I didn't express.
Yes you DID. You claimed that removing religion will do no good - "will not remove guns from the sidewalk". You have to prove that equally disastrous phenomena will arise in it's place, fucktard.
No, I would compare "Faith" to "Addiction", simply outlawing or doing away with certain substances does not change the inherent attributes of human brains. Some people are simply predestined more towards addictive behaviour than other people. Taking away the pills from an addict doesn't turn him into a reasonable person, and in the same way a person who his whole life has never gotten in contact with any illegal drugs can still easily fuck up his life due to an addiction.
You're a fucking moron, aren't you? If addiction is caused by a particular VERY heavy drug, removing it from circulation would help people, would it not? Even if they fall for lighter drugs or alcohol. And even this has to be proven - drugs have a peculiar tendency of, you know, GENERATING ADDICTION, so you have to prove there's a natural addiction that will not get better if we eliminate the drug.
I am equating faith and addiction; but that this is merely an analogy.
Pick a better one then.
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Oh, and...
Economist wrote:LTTE suicide missions, which began in 1987, are inspired more by cultish devotion to Velupillai Prabhakaran, the group's leader, than by religion.


Did you miss the bit about religions and quasi-religions in any form?

That's a fucking cult. I don't know why the Economist shys of equating cults with religion, which are a form of religion. That's doublespeak. Christianty was a cult centuries ago. Cults are of religious nature - they propose belief, worship and other irrational crap.

So much for the "non-religious" LTTE.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Stas Bush wrote:Oh, and...
Economist wrote:LTTE suicide missions, which began in 1987, are inspired more by cultish devotion to Velupillai Prabhakaran, the group's leader, than by religion.


Did you miss the bit about religions and quasi-religions in any form?

That's a fucking cult. I don't know why the Economist shys of equating cults with religion, which are a form of religion. That's doublespeak. Christianty was a cult centuries ago. Cults are of religious nature - they propose belief, worship and other irrational crap.

So much for the "non-religious" LTTE.
One of the definitions of cult is a set of religious beliefs. The term also seems to be used interchangeable with the word sect, which is an organisation which follows certain religious beliefs. Essentially you are right in that all religions are by definition cults.

The term however does seem to be used mainly in describing smaller religions eg Heaven's Gate, the Davidians etc, so maybe there is another variation of the meaning which larger religions conveniently use to denigrate smaller ones.

Looking at dictionary.com

1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3. the object of such devotion.

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

7. the members of such a religion or sect.

8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

–adjective

9. of or pertaining to a cult.

10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.

I mainly refering to definition 1. No doubt when Christians denigrate smaller religions they are using definition 7. Regardless, both cults in this setting are clearly religious in nature.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

mr friendly guy
Thanks.
maybe there is another variation of the meaning which larger religions conveniently use to denigrate smaller ones
That's what I think is going on. There's also "anti-sectarian" campaign in Russia, which is essentially the big religion (Othrodox Church) squashing out the minor cults and sects - a war of religions nothing less.
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Post by R. U. Serious »

Darth Wong wrote:Unusual intelligence is not an innate tendency of atheism, but some level of particular stupidity and/or self-delusion is an innate tendency of religion, particularly of the fundamentalist variety.
Yes, I agree with that description, it's different however from what Bush was making.

In the context of the argument I was trying to make, I was saying that the problem doesn't stop "at the borders" of religious belief. As the link to the economist-article should explain, it's not so much the fact that it is a religion they believe in, or an afterlife, that mainly motivates those people, but the extremism is in how they believe - that every means to their end (no punt intended) is worth it. And it is this type of believe that is dangerous; and you find it not only with religions, but also with, for example the LTTE Black Tigers. The promised afterlife, is overvalued as an explanation for the motivation of certain kinds of attacks. To take as an example the already mentioned LTTE Black Tigers and their hundreds of suicide attacks. They are not religiously motivated, and they are not motivated by "the prospect of afterlife", yet they commit suicide attacks, and they devalue their own human life for the sake of their idea(l)s ("Liberation/Independece").

Actually, to look more carefully at the addiction analogy, the statistics on gambling problems and the proliferation of casinos has shown that easy availability and promotion exacerbates the problem. So even if we postulate that the addictive personalities may be present in some fixed quantity regardless of the presence of the addictive agent, they are more able to resist their own compulsions and weaknesses if the agent is either not present or not easily accessible.
That's a good point. It's arguable how that aspect, and especially the lessons from it can be easily translated to the effects and the availability of strong ideologies among humans, be they religious or not. It's easy to argue that way for example against Nazi or Nazi-like idelogoies of racial superiority, hence the (sort-of) taboo and even legal limitations in many european countries. But then, the LTTE has at it's core the belief (AFAIK; I am not an expert on that topic) of autonomy, independence from Sri Lanka and self-government. In and of itself, nobody would argue that these ideas are inherently bad or should be forbidden. Yet when these goals are used as an excuse for suicide attacks that also kill innocent people, there's something very wrong.

Someone who read Marx and agreed with it, certainly shuld not be treated as a loaded weapon because he could become the next Stalin, or a follower of the next Stalin. And in the same way I don't think because somebody ready the Koran, or considers himself a muslim is necessairly, inherently dangerous or in danger of becoming militant.

A little Aside: What I find sort of funny is that the point that Dawkins is making is very, very similar to what Ratzinger was arguing a few weeks ago in his "controversial" speech - of course Ratzinger made the divide beween Chrstianity+Reason on the one side, and Islam+Atheism+etc. on the other side. :lol:

@Stas Bush:
religion demands irrationality, atheism doesn't.
Yes, I agree with that statement. It's also different from the one you made before and which I called Nonsense.
I was talking about atheists that are comiting suicide attacks in the name of an Ideology
Yes! Let's talk about atheists commiting suicide in the name of secular humanism. I even proposed this
Talk about it if you want, I am not stopping you, you dishonest, ignorant, manipulative asshole. I have no idea what that suggestion has to with any of what I am saying. You#re contiously arguing against your own strawmen. Here you are implying as if I argued that every ideology leads to suicide attacks, whereas I have never said such a thing. I have however repeatedly made example of non-religious ideologically motivated groups that met the problem Dawkins was describing just as well, as his examples of religion.
Yes you DID. You claimed that removing religion will do no good - "will not remove guns from the sidewalk". You have to prove that equally disastrous phenomena will arise in it's place, fucktard.
It's impossible to "prove" anything with regards to a non-existant, purely hypothetical, alternative reality.
Guns are a physical in that inherently limited in their availibility, this does not apply for radical ideologies, or for radically following ideologies. If you take away some ideas, from a "warehouse of ideas", there will still be an enough supply for an unlimited number of people, as long as at least one idea remains. Despite what ill-informed assholes like you may think, non of the religiously motivated violence every came from a vacuum and is solely attributable to religion. Are you honestly claiming that by simply removing religion all those problems would have went away? That's like saying, if we eliminated all borders and gave all humans the same type of passport, all international conflicts will cease to exist or non would every appear again. The only way that would work, is if humans themselves also changed in the process, which is unlikely, just as it is unlikely that humans would resolve conflicts differently if you took away religion.
drugs have a peculiar tendency of, you know, GENERATING ADDICTION, so you have to prove there's a natural addiction that will not get better if we eliminate the drug.
The USSR was officially non-religious/atheist, yet their approach to problem-solving was not magically less violent or more admirable than the problem-solvog ability of religious countries, or religious groups of people. Same goes for the LTTE. And several other examples.I think these cases are evidence, that the problem, or "drug" if you will, is not only religion. Instead it is certain kinds of "big" ideas, when they are married with a certain kind of context. The "afterlife factor" that is exclusive to the religions among those big ideas is overvalued, as my examples, and the economist article tries to make clear.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

Stas Bush wrote:mr friendly guy
Thanks.
maybe there is another variation of the meaning which larger religions conveniently use to denigrate smaller ones
That's what I think is going on. There's also "anti-sectarian" campaign in Russia, which is essentially the big religion (Othrodox Church) squashing out the minor cults and sects - a war of religions nothing less.
Actually now that I think about it, large religions most likely use definition 6, a sect which is unorthodox or "wrong" in its belief. The funny thing is, from the point of view of the smaller religion, the larger religion would be the cult. The only reason why the smaller religion gets the title of "cult" with all its negative conotations is that it has less power.

Looking at history, the Catholic Church considered other sects of Christianity blasphemous and did its best to try and wipe them out. IIRC one of the most famous Christian cults they tried to wipe out was the Carthars, which was actually quite numerous before the RCC wiped them out after breaking a truce.

There was another Christian organisation which eventually became strong enough to resist the Catholic Church, which were of course the Protestants. At this point the RCC was forced to co-exist with the Protestants, but BOTH churches used their powers to try and suppress other Christian cults which they considered to have "wrong" beliefs.

Nice to see that history repeats itself.
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Post by R. U. Serious »

Stas Bush wrote:Oh, and...
Economist wrote:LTTE suicide missions, which began in 1987, are inspired more by cultish devotion to Velupillai Prabhakaran, the group's leader, than by religion.


Did you miss the bit about religions and quasi-religions in any form?

That's a fucking cult. I don't know why the Economist shys of equating cults with religion, which are a form of religion. That's doublespeak. Christianty was a cult centuries ago. Cults are of religious nature - they propose belief, worship and other irrational crap.

So much for the "non-religious" LTTE.

That must be the pinnacly of your Dishonesty. It clearly says "cultish" devotion to a person. - And that's supposed to make it a religion? So the "cultish" devotion of Bush followers make them a religion, too?

That in a way exactly makes the point of the argument that I am trying to make. Even if you forbid specific religions, people will still come up with their own cultish following of certain ideas and use that as an excuse to atrocities. The problem is in the brain, not in the religions.
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R. U. Serious wrote:In the context of the argument I was trying to make, I was saying that the problem doesn't stop "at the borders" of religious belief. As the link to the economist-article should explain, it's not so much the fact that it is a religion they believe in, or an afterlife, that mainly motivates those people, but the extremism is in how they believe - that every means to their end (no punt intended) is worth it. And it is this type of believe that is dangerous; and you find it not only with religions, but also with, for example the LTTE Black Tigers. The promised afterlife, is overvalued as an explanation for the motivation of certain kinds of attacks. To take as an example the already mentioned LTTE Black Tigers and their hundreds of suicide attacks. They are not religiously motivated, and they are not motivated by "the prospect of afterlife", yet they commit suicide attacks, and they devalue their own human life for the sake of their idea(l)s ("Liberation/Independece").
I would argue that "extremism" can be intrinsically limited by the nature of what they believe, so it is the nature of the belief rather than the extremism of the belief which is most important because there will always be a spectrum of intensity of belief; the trick is to change the limits of that spectrum.

In other words, if you have a belief system which says that blacks are inferior to whites, a "moderate" believer in this system might think that blacks have to produce more evidence of their qualifications in order to get a job. An "extremist" believer in this system might want to kill blacks. But if you have a belief system which says it is best to be passive, even an extremist interpretation of this belief system is rather unlikely to lead to genocidal actions. The worst it might cause is self-destructive behaviours, not aggressive ones.
That's a good point. It's arguable how that aspect, and especially the lessons from it can be easily translated to the effects and the availability of strong ideologies among humans, be they religious or not. It's easy to argue that way for example against Nazi or Nazi-like idelogoies of racial superiority, hence the (sort-of) taboo and even legal limitations in many european countries. But then, the LTTE has at it's core the belief (AFAIK; I am not an expert on that topic) of autonomy, independence from Sri Lanka and self-government. In and of itself, nobody would argue that these ideas are inherently bad or should be forbidden. Yet when these goals are used as an excuse for suicide attacks that also kill innocent people, there's something very wrong.
Those are not principles; they are goals. I think that's an important distinction. Defining one's beliefs in terms of major events that you want to make happen will inevitably result in extremism of a violent sort.
Someone who read Marx and agreed with it, certainly shuld not be treated as a loaded weapon because he could become the next Stalin, or a follower of the next Stalin. And in the same way I don't think because somebody ready the Koran, or considers himself a muslim is necessairly, inherently dangerous or in danger of becoming militant.
Would you agree that someone who believes in the Koran is inherently more dangerous than someone who believes in Buddhism? I still maintain that it is the nature of the belief system which controls the parameters of what believers are likely to do, even extremist believers.
A little Aside: What I find sort of funny is that the point that Dawkins is making is very, very similar to what Ratzinger was arguing a few weeks ago in his "controversial" speech - of course Ratzinger made the divide beween Chrstianity+Reason on the one side, and Islam+Atheism+etc. on the other side. :lol:
That's like saying that evolution and creationism are similar because they both accuse each other of being unscientific. One side is simply lying.
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Post by CaptJodan »

Darth Wong wrote: Actually, to look more carefully at the addiction analogy, the statistics on gambling problems and the proliferation of casinos has shown that easy availability and promotion exacerbates the problem. So even if we postulate that the addictive personalities may be present in some fixed quantity regardless of the presence of the addictive agent, they are more able to resist their own compulsions and weaknesses if the agent is either not present or not easily accessible. No one can seriously argue that the massively pervasive influence of religion does not have some effect on the likelihood of faith adoption.
I would agree with this statement. Certainly in whatever way you slice it, without religion the world would likely be a safer place. The incentive to die knowing that's the true end of your life would cut the fat out of a great many of people who would otherwise be willing to die if they knew there was a happy world on the other side.

Still, I wonder how many wouldn't still fall into a trap. Humans seem inherently stupid when it comes to reason as it is. Wouldn't other motivators be in effect for a large portion of people? The one that immediately comes to mind is nationalism. Would not a large body of people replace religion (we're better than you because god loves us) with a stronger sense of nationalism (we're better than you because our country is the best OR we're not better than you necessarily, but you're a power we can't fight conventionally so we will bomb you with people willing to sacrifice their lives for their families/children/country/whatever).

A nation has to have its enemies, after all, and the people have to believe in them. Taking God out of the picture in Bush's speeches, for example, you still get his brainwashing techniques of trying to equate the war on terrorism with a direct threat to the woefully overused term of "freedom" (while he takes away such freedoms). Joe Public says "Oh my God, America was born on freedom! It's everything this country believes in. We can't let that happen!" all the while ignoring the elephant in the room (Bush and his policies).

These tactics by governments would likely be just as effective to a vast array of people who are incapable of understanding reason. I guess my question would be whether this would be vastly reducable by eliminating religion and stepping up education, or if a large portion of the population just has to believe in something greater than themselves irrationally to allow their lives to have meaning, and they will seek out that substance whatever chance they can get?
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Post by mr friendly guy »

R. U. Serious wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Unusual intelligence is not an innate tendency of atheism, but some level of particular stupidity and/or self-delusion is an innate tendency of religion, particularly of the fundamentalist variety.
Yes, I agree with that description, it's different however from what Bush was making.
How so. It looked like the meaning of what Stas Bush was trying to get across is the same as what Darth Wong wrote.
In the context of the argument I was trying to make, I was saying that the problem doesn't stop "at the borders" of religious belief. As the link to the economist-article should explain, it's not so much the fact that it is a religion they believe in, or an afterlife, that mainly motivates those people, but the extremism is in how they believe - that every means to their end (no punt intended) is worth it. And it is this type of believe that is dangerous; and you find it not only with religions, but also with, for example the LTTE Black Tigers. The promised afterlife, is overvalued as an explanation for the motivation of certain kinds of attacks. To take as an example the already mentioned LTTE Black Tigers and their hundreds of suicide attacks. They are not religiously motivated, and they are not motivated by "the prospect of afterlife", yet they commit suicide attacks, and they devalue their own human life for the sake of their idea(l)s ("Liberation/Independece").
I don't think any one is claiming that if we magically got rid of religion all the world's conflicts would just disappear, least of all Dawkins (according to him he didn't want to call his anti-religious documentary the Root of ALL evil, but channel 4 overruled him). However religion is responsible for certain acts and the point is if we were to get rid of it, it will reduce the problems.

Let me apply your line of thinking to say anti-smoking campaigns in a bid to reduce heart disease. You are effectively saying we shouldn't try to decrease smoking because the problem of heart disease doesn't stop at the "borders" of smoking since other factors like high blood pressure and high cholesterol play a role. So what if they do? Stopping one factor will reduce it. Just as religion plays a role in these acts of violence and terrorism, and I would argue a large role, hence stopping it will reduce them.
That's a good point. It's arguable how that aspect, and especially the lessons from it can be easily translated to the effects and the availability of strong ideologies among humans, be they religious or not.
This does not in any way, shape or form excuse religious idealogies which promote the atrocities committed in their name. So its pretty pointless bringing up the line that other idealogies are bad.
Someone who read Marx and agreed with it, certainly shuld not be treated as a loaded weapon because he could become the next Stalin, or a follower of the next Stalin. And in the same way I don't think because somebody ready the Koran, or considers himself a muslim is necessairly, inherently dangerous or in danger of becoming militant.
1. Unless Marx advocated committing similar atrocities (from the main site it appears that Stalin distorting marxism among other things) the analogy is false. While a religious belief can also be distorted, if the original belief already advocated violence and atrocities, its intellectually dishonest to then turn around and say that the religion is really one of peace.

2. Not all Muslims are inherently dangerous because like a lot of religious people, they can cherry pick which parts they like. In effect those majority who are generally peaceful, do so DESPITE their religion. The religion itself can advocate violence, but it also depends on other factors like the level of indoctrination, interpretation of holy text etc. All Dawkins is arguing is that in some people religion does lead to a higher level of evil acts.
A little Aside: What I find sort of funny is that the point that Dawkins is making is very, very similar to what Ratzinger was arguing a few weeks ago in his "controversial" speech - of course Ratzinger made the divide beween Chrstianity+Reason on the one side, and Islam+Atheism+etc. on the other side. :lol:
Funny if you can see the irony of the Pope making a spill about Christianity and reason in the same speech. However I find nothing ironic or funny for that matter when Dawkins made his speech.
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CaptJodan wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Actually, to look more carefully at the addiction analogy, the statistics on gambling problems and the proliferation of casinos has shown that easy availability and promotion exacerbates the problem. So even if we postulate that the addictive personalities may be present in some fixed quantity regardless of the presence of the addictive agent, they are more able to resist their own compulsions and weaknesses if the agent is either not present or not easily accessible. No one can seriously argue that the massively pervasive influence of religion does not have some effect on the likelihood of faith adoption.
I would agree with this statement. Certainly in whatever way you slice it, without religion the world would likely be a safer place. The incentive to die knowing that's the true end of your life would cut the fat out of a great many of people who would otherwise be willing to die if they knew there was a happy world on the other side.

Still, I wonder how many wouldn't still fall into a trap. Humans seem inherently stupid when it comes to reason as it is. Wouldn't other motivators be in effect for a large portion of people? The one that immediately comes to mind is nationalism. Would not a large body of people replace religion (we're better than you because god loves us) with a stronger sense of nationalism (we're better than you because our country is the best OR we're not better than you necessarily, but you're a power we can't fight conventionally so we will bomb you with people willing to sacrifice their lives for their families/children/country/whatever).

A nation has to have its enemies, after all, and the people have to believe in them. Taking God out of the picture in Bush's speeches, for example, you still get his brainwashing techniques of trying to equate the war on terrorism with a direct threat to the woefully overused term of "freedom" (while he takes away such freedoms). Joe Public says "Oh my God, America was born on freedom! It's everything this country believes in. We can't let that happen!" all the while ignoring the elephant in the room (Bush and his policies).

These tactics by governments would likely be just as effective to a vast array of people who are incapable of understanding reason. I guess my question would be whether this would be vastly reducable by eliminating religion and stepping up education, or if a large portion of the population just has to believe in something greater than themselves irrationally to allow their lives to have meaning, and they will seek out that substance whatever chance they can get?
True, nationalism is another powerful motivator toward the kind of mindless lock-step obedience that you're talking about. But I'd rather have one powerful motivator than two.
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It's also different from the one you made before
Which?
Stas Bush wrote:It's harder to be an atheist and a stupid dumbass, than to be a religious and a stupid dumbass.
Yes, it's harder. Being religions means automatically subscribing to irrationality. Atheism means no such thing. So you have to have something both religious and yet compatible with atheism - like man-gods, various cults. This is also a form of religion that has to be stomped out.
I have however repeatedly made example of non-religious ideologically motivated groups
So far this ideology turned out to be either religion itself, or quasi-religious cultic beliefs, which are of religious nature.
Are you honestly claiming that by simply removing religion all those problems would have went away?
Are you honestly saying this? Removing a particular religion would remove problems connected with THIS religion. It will not remove problems connected with other religions and cultic shit. But it will remove what's connected to a particular religion, and that is valuable.
The only way that would work, is if humans themselves also changed in the process
Did that piece of history called "Enlightement", which was brought upon us by education and science and moved us from a totally religious Dark Age to a more secular Civilization, fly over your head?

Yes, people DO CHANGE. Spreading rationality, knowledge and education in place of religion makes fewer people want to join religious causes. This is a well-known correlation - the more educated a person is, the less likely his subscription to religions BULLSHIT.
The USSR was officially non-religious/atheist, yet their approach to problem-solving was not magically less violent or more admirable than the problem-solvog ability of religious countries
The USSR was (or, rather, became) quasi-religious. If a fucking Egyptic pyramid with a dead body of a leader and slogans like "Great Stalin Lives Forever" don't make it very fucking clear for you that the USSR had been taken over by a cult of definetely religious nature.
I think these cases are evidence, that the problem, or "drug" if you will, is not only religion. Instead it is certain kinds of "big" ideas, when they are married with a certain kind of context.
It's only a problem when you equate BIG IDEAS with quasi-religious cults. So cults, technically, can exclude afterlife beliefs, but they still remain cults because they demand irrational faith and belief.
It clearly says "cultish" devotion to a person.
Christianity and Islam are cultic and personal. Jesus and Mohammed may have been as real as the leader of Tamil Tigers, just a man who found convenient to organise a religion.

If you stop equating "big ideas" with cults, which you did over the whole course of this debate, I think we can come to agreement.
Even if you forbid specific religions, people will still come up with their own cultish following of certain ideas and use that as an excuse to atrocities.
Oh certainly. But other "specific" religions may be extinguished by education and rationality even before they could even rise to the point of being worldwide and having a ~1000-year-old history of murder and persecution. Get it?

And such "cults" should be stamped out too, because I already said that religions and quasi-religions of any kind are anti-logical.
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