God and Iron Chariots

[Mutant Headcrab]

Got into a religious discussion with a friend earlier today and we got to talking about the passage in Judges regarding God's inabilities to deal with iron chariots. While the passage seems to indicate, to me at least, that God can't deal with them, my friend maintains that it refers only to Judah who can not.

My question is this: Is there any other biblical evidence to support the idea that God is vulnerable to iron chariots? Would really appreciate the help.

[Darth Wong]

Got into a religious discussion with a friend earlier today and we got to talking about the passage in Judges regarding God's inabilities to deal with iron chariots. While the passage seems to indicate, to me at least, that God can't deal with them, my friend maintains that it refers only to Judah who can not.

My question is this: Is there any other biblical evidence to support the idea that God is vulnerable to iron chariots? Would really appreciate the help.

He's full of shit.

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

I don't see why you need supporting passages; if one passage in the Bible is sufficient to serve as a basis for an entire system of thought about how life came to exist on this planet, then it's certainly enough for this "iron chariots" thing. It says that God was with Judah, and that HE defeated one opponent but could not defeat another.

[Darth Lucifer]

I don't see why you need supporting passages; if one passage in the Bible is sufficient to serve as a basis for an entire system of thought about how life came to exist on this planet, then it's certainly enough for this "iron chariots" thing. It says that God was with Judah, and that HE defeated one opponent but could not defeat another.

Here's something I found:

Deu 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up [any] iron [tool] upon them.

God doesn't like iron. A vunerability to it could be the reason why.

[K. A. Pital]

God doesn't like iron. A vunerability to it could be the reason why.

I'm utterly fascinated. Imagine God versus a modern military fighter plane. Another thought... you know Gagarin said "I went to space and saw no God out there", perhaps God was so damn scared that he hid behind the Earth... That also explains why with the rise of the Industrial Civlization and the Age of Metal God is not really showing us funky miracles and other stuff, and not really coming down... the sheer quantity of iron scares him off.

[Superman]

God doesn't like iron. A vunerability to it could be the reason why.

I'm utterly fascinated. Imagine God versus a modern military fighter plane. Another thought... you know Gagarin said "I went to space and saw no God out there", perhaps God was so damn scared that he hid behind the Earth... That also explains why with the rise of the Industrial Civlization and the Age of Metal God is not really showing us funky miracles and other stuff, and not really coming down... the sheer quantity of iron scares him off.

The way I see it, it's sort of like Kryptonite and Superman. Sure Superman is faster than a speeding bullet and can leap tall buildings in a single bound, but expose him to a chunk of kryptonite and he's fucked.

Same principle with god and iron chariots.

[Kitsune]

Well, there are many stories which involve the Fae which make them vulnerable to Iron...hmmm

[Ritterin Sophia]

So wait... God isn't really a deity, and he really IS a magical sky pixy, like we all joked?

[Winston Blake]

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

I don't see why you need supporting passages; if one passage in the Bible is sufficient to serve as a basis for an entire system of thought about how life came to exist on this planet, then it's certainly enough for this "iron chariots" thing. It says that God was with Judah, and that HE defeated one opponent but could not defeat another.

To be fair, the English translation is ambiguous because 'he' could be referring to either. I'm betting that more recent versions retcon this passage because of its stupidity, so if anyone has the original Hebrew it could solve this.

Well, there are many stories which involve the Fae which make them vulnerable to Iron...hmmm

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if the idea that iron defeats magic is some kind of mythologising of the idea that reason drives away mysticism.

"The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." Joseph Campbell

With all the armour-piercing ammo lying around nowadays with steel-penetrators, if the Rapture does happen, BattleJesus and his Angel Squadrons are going to be in for a rude surprise.

[Darth Wong]

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

I don't see why you need supporting passages; if one passage in the Bible is sufficient to serve as a basis for an entire system of thought about how life came to exist on this planet, then it's certainly enough for this "iron chariots" thing. It says that God was with Judah, and that HE defeated one opponent but could not defeat another.

To be fair, the English translation is ambiguous because 'he' could be referring to either. I'm betting that more recent versions retcon this passage because of its stupidity, so if anyone has the original Hebrew it could solve this.

I don't see what difference it would make, actually. The passage is very explicit that God is helping Judah. When "The LORD is with Samson", then Samson gets supernatural strength. When the Bible says the LORD is with someone, it means he's performing miracles on their behalf. So even with God's help, the men of Judah could not defeat the iron chariots. Maybe iron really is kryptonite to God.

[OmegaGuy]

That means that Satan must really be a robot.... made of iron.

[Ryushikaze]

That means that Satan must really be a robot.... made of iron. :P

Yes, and Hell is in New Jersey.

[wautd]

WHy did God created iron in the first place. Does not compute X(

[lazerus]

That means that Satan must really be a robot.... made of iron.

Yes, and Hell is in New Jersey.

We allready knew that.

[Superman]

That means that Satan must really be a robot.... made of iron.

Mecha Satan?

[Glimmervoid]

God doesn't like iron. A vunerability to it could be the reason why.

I'm utterly fascinated. Imagine God versus a modern military fighter plane. Another thought... you know Gagarin said "I went to space and saw no God out there", perhaps God was so damn scared that he hid behind the Earth... That also explains why with the rise of the Industrial Civlization and the Age of Metal God is not really showing us funky miracles and other stuff, and not really coming down... the sheer quantity of iron scares him off.

The way I see it, it's sort of like Kryptonite and Superman. Sure Superman is faster than a speeding bullet and can leap tall buildings in a single bound, but expose him to a chunk of kryptonite and he's fucked.

Same principle with god and iron chariots.

Also the nails that nailed Jesus to the cross would have been iron, and he had the wounds even post rez, it sounds a lot like some kind of weakness.

[Rye]

In that part, it does refer primarily to the men of Judah, they're being portrayed as awesome warriors that have the blessing of God, so when they were supreme, their awesomeness was associated with God, i.e. God is good fortune, God is the triumph over your enemies, etc. Then it says the men of Judah couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the valleys with their iron chariots, it might be a rationalisation for why there were still foreigners in the lands in the time the accounts were written. Otherwise, you'd get questions like "if we wiped them all out, why are these guys here?"

The lapse in God's fortuitous nature is a bit odd from our perspective, but nobody noticed it for a long time as far as I'm aware, so it didn't affect the "almighty" concept until recently.

I remember one die-hard apologist once trying to rationalise that military loss as pre-emptive punishment from God for something Judah did later!

[Gandalf]

I wonder why the Big G would make a planet with iron in it?

That means that Satan must really be a robot.... made of iron.

"Wes... did you ever hear that the devil built a robot?"
"El Diablo Robotico. Why?"

[Molyneux]

Just so I don't have to go digging, exactly which passage is this in Judges with the 'chariots of iron' bit?

[OmegaGuy]

Judges 1:19

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

God doesn't like iron. A vunerability to it could be the reason why.

I'm utterly fascinated. Imagine God versus a modern military fighter plane. Another thought... you know Gagarin said "I went to space and saw no God out there", perhaps God was so damn scared that he hid behind the Earth... That also explains why with the rise of the Industrial Civlization and the Age of Metal God is not really showing us funky miracles and other stuff, and not really coming down... the sheer quantity of iron scares him off.

Modern military hardware has very little iron in it, Espescially Airplanes which are mostly Aluminum+some more obscure alloys. gosh!

[Elfdart]

I don't see why you need supporting passages; if one passage in the Bible is sufficient to serve as a basis for an entire system of thought about how life came to exist on this planet, then it's certainly enough for this "iron chariots" thing. It says that God was with Judah, and that HE defeated one opponent but could not defeat another.

Here's something I found:

Deu 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up [any] iron [tool] upon them.

God doesn't like iron. A vunerability to it could be the reason why.

Kind of like the Boabhan Sith

Boabhan Sith

The Baobhan Sith is a particularly evil and dangerous female vampire from the highlands of Scotland. They were supposed to prey on unwary travellers in the glens and mountains. The name suggests a form of Banshee.

A common tale is told of 4 young friends who set off on a hunting trip in the glens, benighted the men take refuge in an abandoned Shieldig (small cottage).

Darkness falls quickly and the men build a fire in the hearth and set about entertaining themselves for the night. One of them is a talented singer, and sings as his companions begin to dance around the room.

One of the men wishes that they had the company of women and speaks as such. Seconds after he has spoken 4 women appear at the door and begin dancing with the three men.

Suddenly the atmosphere changes and the women become frenzied, imbued with supernatural strength they tear at the dancers and blood begins to spill around the room.

Terrified the young man who was supplying the music runs out of the door with one of the creatures at his heels. He takes refuge between the horses and this seems to create a barrier over which the creature can not cross. He spends a long and cold night between the horses, with the Boabhan Sith circling around waiting for an opportunity to pounce on him. At last dawn breaks and the creature disappears.

When he returns to the shieldig a ghastly sight greets him. All his companions are dead, sprawled around the floor in agonising positions completely drained of blood.

Traditionally supernatural creatures are afraid of iron, and taking refuge in the wild horses may have saved him because of the horse's iron shoes.

Jehovah is a female Scottish vampire!

[mr friendly guy]

Got into a religious discussion with a friend earlier today and we got to talking about the passage in Judges regarding God's inabilities to deal with iron chariots. While the passage seems to indicate, to me at least, that God can't deal with them, my friend maintains that it refers only to Judah who can not.

My question is this: Is there any other biblical evidence to support the idea that God is vulnerable to iron chariots? Would really appreciate the help.

Apologist arguments
1. But its possible to be with someone and still lose. Ignoring for a moment being "with" someone in this context likely means God is actively helping someone instead of just standing next to them looking pretty.

2. Its a mistranslation from the original hebrew. Sure I don't actually provide any evidence whatsoever, but take my word for it.

The apologist starts with assuming the very thing he is trying to prove. That God isn't afraid of iron, so any amount of bullshit unsupported "explanations" makes sense to them.

Looking at this thread it makes more sense in terms of how legends get spread. As several people have pointed out, a lot of legendary creatures have vulnerabilities to iron, notably the fae / faerie etc. It wouldn't surprise me that the legend of God suffers from the same origin.

It was most likely only later when Christians starting wanking out on God being omnipotent and all that. In this respect its no different from Trekkies who wank out the Federation to such an extent it can beat the Empire. Evidence for Trek having such abilities is not found in Trek canon, and evidence for God being omnipotent is not found it Christian canon ie the Bible.

[Darth RyanKCR]

I did a little research and this is what I found:

Joshua 17:14-8

14 Then the sons of Joseph spoke to Joshua, saying, “Why have you given me only one lot and one portion for an inheritance, since I am a numerous people whom the LORD has thus far blessed?” 15 And Joshua said to them, “If you are a numerous people, go up to the forest and clear a place for yourself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the Rephaim, since the hill country of Ephraim is too narrow for you.” 16 And the sons of Joseph said, “The hill country is not enough for us, and all the Canaanites who live in the valley land have chariots of iron, both those who are in Beth-shean and its towns, and those who are in the valley of Jezreel.” 17 And Joshua spoke to the house of Joseph, to Ephraim and Manasseh, saying, “You are a numerous people and have great power; you shall not have one lot only, 18 but the hill country shall be yours. For though it is a forest, you shall clear it, and to its farthest borders it shall be yours; for you shall drive out the Canaanites, even though they have chariots of iron and though they are strong.”

This passage describes what happened before Judges 1:19. In essence the people themselves were afraid and did not trust in God so their fear kept them from defeating the chariots and not letting God do as He had done before. There is some speculation in the text I found that they just withdrew without a battle.

[Rye]

Looking at this thread it makes more sense in terms of how legends get spread. As several people have pointed out, a lot of legendary creatures have vulnerabilities to iron, notably the fae / faerie etc. It wouldn't surprise me that the legend of God suffers from the same origin.

No evidence for that at all.

It was most likely only later when Christians starting wanking out on God being omnipotent and all that. In this respect its no different from Trekkies who wank out the Federation to such an extent it can beat the Empire. Evidence for Trek having such abilities is not found in Trek canon, and evidence for God being omnipotent is not found it Christian canon ie the Bible.

Uh, dude, he creates the whole world in the first few pages and blows up cities and drowns the planet in the following pages, he sends plagues and shit later on, too. As for omnipotent, I remind you of Isaiah 45, the meaning is pretty clearly God being able to control everything, which I would count as a form of omnipotence. It would be most fucked up to imply the ancient jews thought he couldn't tame some charioteers.

[mr friendly guy]

No evidence for that at all.

Ok, I concede that point unless someone provides evidence to the contrary.

Uh, dude, he creates the whole world in the first few pages and blows up cities and drowns the planet in the following pages, he sends plagues and shit later on, too. As for omnipotent, I remind you of Isaiah 45, the meaning is pretty clearly God being able to control everything, which I would count as a form of omnipotence. It would be most fucked up to imply the ancient jews thought he couldn't tame some charioteers.

So. Superman can shit loads of stuff as well, and it seems ridiculous that a little piece of rock which does jack to humans can harm him. But its canon.
Same with the Bible. It was composed from several different religious writings in existence, so its highly likely they will be contradictions, including where one author apparently thought he couldn't tame ancient charioteers. These passages are all canon, and I am only trying to interpret the Bible under the guise of SoD.