Are the Uruk-Hai immortal?

[Stormbringer]

Uruk Hai are properly the big fighting orcs of Mordor, not the funky human-orc hybrid they were in the movies.

The hybrids of the movie would presumably be mortal. I doubt the Valar would allow them immortality and they seem to run much more to the man-animal side than elvish.

[Morning Star]

The Urak-Hai aren't immortal, but they are extraordinarily hard to kill. They can suffer disabilng injuries (traumatic amputation or impalement) and keep on fighting. From the example of the Urak-Hai archer that Aragorn went one-on-one with at the end of 'Fellowship', I would say they have several survival characteristics:

Firstly they don't seem to have a circulatory system like ours. Instead of high-pressure tubing, they must have some other way of moving nutrients and wastes around their bodies. Despite some serious injuries, that Urak-Hai never had the ol' Pekenpah squirting blood. This means that they don't have blood volume & blood pressure loss worries when dealing with major injuries.

Why do you presume that? Is there any evidence from JRR Tolkien that this is so?

Secondly, while the Urak-Hai seem to have awareness of damage to their bodies, they don't seem to suffer pain in the same way that we do. That means that they don't suffer any loss of fighting efficiency due to their senses being overwhelmed by pain.

Since they are descended from orccish king is it any wonder? They were captured, enslaved and tortures by Melkor during the time of the Awakening of the Children of Iluvatar. Their entire lives revolve around pain and hate: how they fel that towrds their masters who caused their suffering and how they unleash their anger on the Free Peoples.

In many ways, they are genetically-engineered super-soldiers. An interesting example of 'science eventuality' (to use Steven Spielberg's buzzphrase) that one does not usually expect from fantasy literature.

Yeah: the speed, agility streght and other extra-sensory abilities of the orcs, combined with the ability to reason and move in the daylight of men. [burns] Excellent [/burns]

[Stormbringer]

In many ways, they are genetically-engineered super-soldiers. An interesting example of 'science eventuality' (to use Steven Spielberg's buzzphrase) that one does not usually expect from fantasy literature.

Except you're obviously basing it on the movie. They were simply the large fighting orcs.

[fgalkin]

It was men.

Women, actually.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Uruk Hai are properly the big fighting orcs of Mordor, not the funky human-orc hybrid they were in the movies.

The hybrids of the movie would presumably be mortal. I doubt the Valar would allow them immortality and they seem to run much more to the man-animal side than elvish.

Last time I checked, the Uruks owed allgeiance to the White Hand alone. Therefore, that little conflict of interest between Ugluk ang Grishnakh in the books.

HAve a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Morning Star]

Uruk Hai are properly the big fighting orcs of Mordor, not the funky human-orc hybrid they were in the movies.

The hybrids of the movie would presumably be mortal. I doubt the Valar would allow them immortality and they seem to run much more to the man-animal side than elvish.

Last time I checked, the Uruks owed allgeiance to the White Hand alone. Therefore, that little conflict of interest between Ugluk ang Grishnakh in the books.

HAve a very nice day.
-fgalkin

"Great Orcs... that kind is stronger and more fell than all others."
Éomer, from The Two Towers III 2, The Riders of Rohan

A common name for the large soldier-orcs of Mordor and later also Isengard that troubled Gondor and Rohan in the late Third Age.

In fact, this name is only ever used by Éomer, and may only have been current in Rohan, but the fearsome creatures it described had been known for five hundred years when he spoke these words: creatures whose name in their own Black Speech was Uruk-hai. Although Uruk-Hai came to be known as the or half breeds of men and orcs, they were originally meant for the larger variety of Sauonr's dark servents.

[Stormbringer]

Last time I checked, the Uruks owed allgeiance to the White Hand alone. Therefore, that little conflict of interest between Ugluk ang Grishnakh in the books.

HAve a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Crack the books. The movie (which you seem to be basing this from) got it wrong. Uruk-Hai are specifically the breed of orcs that are the largest, toughest soldier orcs. It's made obvious in the book and appendices.

The conflict between Uruk-Hai and orc took place because one was an Uruk-Hai was and the other a simple orc.

[Morning Star]

Last time I checked, the Uruks owed allgeiance to the White Hand alone. Therefore, that little conflict of interest between Ugluk ang Grishnakh in the books.

HAve a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Crack the books. The movie (which you seem to be basing this from) got it wrong. Uruk-Hai are specifically the breed of orcs that are the largest, toughest soldier orcs. It's made obvious in the book and appendices.

The conflict between Uruk-Hai and orc took place because one was an Uruk-Hai was and the other a simple orc.

Yeah, Uruk-hai were also known as Great Orcs and were just the larger variety, the smaller being the ones who infested the Grey and Misty miuntains and came to be known as Goblins. Great Ocs/Urks also were known as Hobgoblins by the Western peoples. Saruman's legions were known specifically as Goblin-men. Though in the movie, little of that mattered as not as much history was eplained.

Also, Goblin-men were Sarumans soldiers that more resemblled men, Half-orcs were the names of those that were more like Orcs. Both of them, plus Sauron's Black Orcs, known as Uruk-hai, could withstand sunlight.

[Morning Star]

Actually, the evlish word for orc is Yrchh or something like that.

Goblins are the mountain variety and your typical "orcs" are from the land. The orcs of mordor in the beginning of the movie seemed well....purple-ish, while the normal orcs of saruman seemed to be more on the brown and green variety.

Actually it's only the Sindarin form: Yrch' is the plural form; the singular is 'orch'. Which trablstaes into orc: Uruk-Hai as the larger, black orcs. And Snage as the lesser, or slave orcs.

[D.Turtle]

One note about the orcs and their possible creation from elves:
Not all elves went to Valinor IIRC.
There were the dark elves who stayed in ME.
Nelkor could have created the orcs from them.

[BenRG]

The Urak-Hai aren't immortal, but they are extraordinarily hard to kill.

(...)

This means that they don't have blood volume & blood pressure loss worries when dealing with major injuries.

Why do you presume that? Is there any evidence from JRR Tolkien that this is so?

There isn't anything in the books about how the Urak-hai react to serious but non-fatal injuries in the books, as far as I know (and I'm reading them for the third time ). I can only go by what is seen in the recent films. Of course, the squirting black ichor might have been edited out to preserve a PG rating. However, we still have to deal with what that means vis Urak-Hai biology (assuming that suspension of disbelief stands).

From the film, while it is clear that Urak-Hai do have blood, it doesn't seem to move through their bodies in a high-pressure circulatory system like ours. The best idea I can come up with is a low-pressure system with the interior of their bodies permeated with blood in the same way a sponge is with water. What those things might have instead of a heart defeats me, though.

[BenRG]

Just to make something clear: In the book 'The Two Towers', the Isengardian forces that attacked Helm's Deep clearly identified themselves as 'fighting Urak-Hai' when Aragorn gave them his 'we will never surrender' speech. To my knowlege, no one used this term at any time except when referring to Saruman's hybrids. If anyone has any book proof of the term being used by anyone regarding any other creature (and I would prefer the body of the books to the appendecies), then I would be glad to see it.

[Morning Star]

Just to make something clear: In the book 'The Two Towers', the Isengardian forces that attacked Helm's Deep clearly identified themselves as 'fighting Urak-Hai' when Aragorn gave them his 'we will never surrender' speech. To my knowlege, no one used this term at any time except when referring to Saruman's hybrids. If anyone has any book proof of the term being used by anyone regarding any other creature (and I would prefer the body of the books to the appendecies), then I would be glad to see it.

Uruks and Uruk-hai were of Sauron's creation, and were just orcs bred to be larger and to withstand sunlight... but they were not the same as Saruman's half-orcs and goblin-men. They were also known as Great Orcs and were of pure orccish breed. Proof? Here's proof:

In Appendix A (iv) of The Lord of the Rings, in the section recounting the history of the Stewards, we find an account of the first appearance of the uruks. 'In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.' This passage seems to imply that the uruks actually appeared shortly before Gondor's great defeat of III 2475.

The uruk-hai were not the half breeds seen in the film...they were of Sauron's making. A breed of orcs smarter, stonger and all-round more powerful than the normal kinds. Like Sauron made the Olog-hai so that his troll legions could also charge with his uruks.

[BenRG]

Okay, Morning Star, so that means that a physically large orckish tribe known as the Uruks appeared long before the events chronicled in 'Lord of the Rings'. Fair enough, but that still doesn't explain why Saruman's hybrids referred to themselves as 'fighting Urak-Hai' during the Battle of Helm's Deep.

[Perinquus]

Okay, Morning Star, so that means that a physically large orckish tribe known as the Uruks appeared long before the events chronicled in 'Lord of the Rings'. Fair enough, but that still doesn't explain why Saruman's hybrids referred to themselves as 'fighting Urak-Hai' during the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Mordor Uruk Hai may have referred to themselves the same way, we just never hear them speak in the books - there are, after all, rather few scenes where the Orcs are shown to us closely. Also remember, Saruman did not make his Orcs from scratch. He probably "imported" them from Mordor when he began entertaining designs of becoming a power in Middle Earth. He probably settled Uruks in Isengard at that time. I'm also not convinced the Uruk-Hai in Saruman's service were hybrids. He did breed hybrids, apparently; Bill Ferny in Bree seemed to be at least part Orc, and so was another "southern spy" Frodo and his companions encountered in Bree. The hybrids seem to have been able to pass for normal Men (albeit extremely ill-favored ones), whereas the coal black-skinned Uruks were such that they could never be mistaken for anything but a species of Orc.

[Morning Star]

Okay, Morning Star, so that means that a physically large orckish tribe known as the Uruks appeared long before the events chronicled in 'Lord of the Rings'. Fair enough, but that still doesn't explain why Saruman's hybrids referred to themselves as 'fighting Urak-Hai' during the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Possibly in the movie they just got in wrong.

Also at the battle of Hornburg, there were orcs of Mordor as well as Saruman. I can't explain why they said it, there are a number of reasonable explanations, but it doesn't matter at all: Tolkien himself said that the Uruk-hai were Saurons Great Orcs, not the half breeds of Saruman. (which were hlaf-orcs or goblin-men, depending on which they resembled more). But the explanation that Sauron had forces sent to Orthanc is the most likely right and explains why they called themslves Uruks. After all, the Enemy and the White Wizard were allied at the time. You can't take the movie for the truth, in the books the huorns saved the day as the Ents marched upon Isengard.

An orc of Mordor, and one of the Uruk-hai. He was part of the raiding party that captured Merry and Pippin at Parth Galen, and was slain by the Riders of Éomer near the eaves of Fangorn Forest.

Notice he was one of the fighting Uruk-hai, and was from Mordor. I think that concludes my argument.

[Morning Star]

Okay, Morning Star, so that means that a physically large orckish tribe known as the Uruks appeared long before the events chronicled in 'Lord of the Rings'. Fair enough, but that still doesn't explain why Saruman's hybrids referred to themselves as 'fighting Urak-Hai' during the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Mordor Uruk Hai may have referred to themselves the same way, we just never hear them speak in the books - there are, after all, rather few scenes where the Orcs are shown to us closely. Also remember, Saruman did not make his Orcs from scratch. He probably "imported" them from Mordor when he began entertaining designs of becoming a power in Middle Earth. He probably settled Uruks in Isengard at that time. I'm also not convinced the Uruk-Hai in Saruman's service were hybrids. He did breed hybrids, apparently; Bill Ferny in Bree seemed to be at least part Orc, and so was another "southern spy" Frodo and his companions encountered in Bree. The hybrids seem to have been able to pass for normal Men (albeit extremely ill-favored ones), whereas the coal black-skinned Uruks were such that they could never be mistaken for anything but a species of Orc.

Saruman's orcs were:

Goblin-men: cross breeds that resembled men. Withstands sunlight.

Half-orcs: cross breeds that resembled orcs. Withstands sunlight.

Goblins: Orcs of the lesser kind from the Mountains, known as goblins.


Sauron's orcs were:

Orcs (Yrch): normal average orcs of the average size of men, the most common in ME and the most directly descended from Morgoth's.

Snaga: Orcs of a lesser kind, resembelling goblins but living in mordor rather than the Mts.

Uruk-hai (Great Orcs or Black Orcs): Orcs bread to be larger, smarter, stronger, faster and more agile than most. Withstands sunlight.

[BenRG]

Morning Star, you are forgetting one thing. I am not talking about the film, I'm talking about the book. I haven't seen the film yet. It is in the book that Saruman's hybrids call themselves the 'fighting Uruk-Hai'.

[Morning Star]

Morning Star, you are forgetting one thing. I am not talking about the film, I'm talking about the book. I haven't seen the film yet. It is in the book that Saruman's hybrids call themselves the 'fighting Uruk-Hai'.

I knwo, I explained why this could be so for both the movie and book because I wanted. Even so, I did give an explanation to your question, since you seem to have missed this, I shall say it again:

Grishnakh, the leader of the Uruk's who captured the teo hobbits were from Mordor but sent by Saruman:

An orc of Mordor, and one of the Uruk-hai. He was part of the raiding party that captured Merry and Pippin at Parth Galen, and was slain by the Riders of Éomer near the eaves of Fangorn Forest.

Meaning that the Uruks were under Saruman's command at the time but they are Sauron's forces: which is quite reasonable, since the Enemy and the White Wizard were allied at the time. Tolkien himself said that the Uruk-hai were Saurons Great Orcs, not the half breeds of Saruman. (which were half-orcs or goblin-men, depending on which they resembled more). But the explanation that Sauron had forces sent to Orthanc is the most likely right and explains why they called themslves Uruks. . . They were Uruk's following Saruman's (and indirectly Sauron's) orders but were not Saruman's half breeds.

"Great Orcs... that kind is stronger and more fell than all others."
Éomer, from The Two Towers III 2, The Riders of Rohan

A common name for the large soldier-orcs of Mordor and later also Isengard that troubled Gondor and Rohan in the late Third Age.

In fact, this name is only ever used by Éomer, and may only have been current in Rohan, but the fearsome creatures it described had been known for five hundred years when he spoke these words: creatures whose name in their own Black Speech was Uruk-hai.

Now from his remark about Isengard it may seem that the half breeds of Saruman were in fact Uruk-hai, but remember he says

large soldier-orcs

which fits in with JRR's former explanation that Uruks are advanced orcs, not the half breeds. Whcih I will once again explain:

Creatures created by Saruman, apparently by blending the races of Orcs and Men. Precisely what they were is mysterious - they are only ever mentioned once by name, during the Battle of the Hornburg - but they seem to be distinct from half-orcs, and rather more Man-like.

and...

Creatures bred from Orcs and Men by the Wizard Saruman in his stronghold at Isengard. Like Sauron's Uruk-hai, they could withstand sunlight. The more Man-like of them, of perhaps a slightly different breed, were known as Goblin-men.

Notice how they are referred to Sauron's Uruk-hai...meaning they cannot be the same.

[Vendetta]

Ugluk was the leader of Saruman's band that captured the hobbits, he is one of Saruman's breed of orcs.

Grishnakh was the leader of another group, sent from Mordor, that were working with them, but were directly under Sauron's orders.

The fight in the book is about where the hobbits are to be taken, as Ugluk is taking them to Isengard and Grishnakh wants to take them direct to Barad-dur.

But it's irrelevant, since at the siege of Helm's Deep, orcs which are directly referred to as crossbreeds refer to themselves as Uruk-hai.

[Morning Star]

Ugluk was the leader of Saruman's band that captured the hobbits, he is one of Saruman's breed of orcs.

Grishnakh was the leader of another group, sent from Mordor, that were working with them, but were directly under Sauron's orders.

The fight in the book is about where the hobbits are to be taken, as Ugluk is taking them to Isengard and Grishnakh wants to take them direct to Barad-dur.

But it's irrelevant, since at the siege of Helm's Deep, orcs which are directly referred to as crossbreeds refer to themselves as Uruk-hai.

My bad. But my point still stands that Mordorian and Isenagrdian orcs worked together...there ofre it is entirley possible they did so at Helm's Deep.

No, what's irrelevant is what they said... Tolkien himself has stated who and what the Uruk-hai are and it is not Saruman's cross race. The only explanations are that either, as I have pointed out in my former posts, Sauron's orcs were at the disposal of Saruman at the time...or it's a mistake. It doesn't what they said... he specifically stated that they are not the half breeds. They are goblin-men and half-orcs. Uruk-hai and Olog-hai are the creations of Sauron: to improve the corrupted mockeries that Morgoth ,ade after the Awakening.

[Morning Star]

Also it must be stated that Saruman did have Uruks in his ranks; whether they were his or sauron's is left undecided. But they both had Uruks... but the Uruk-hai are not the half breed.

We know this because of tolkien. With Tolkien's statement:

In Appendix A (iv) of The Lord of the Rings, in the section recounting the history of the Stewards, we find an account of the first appearance of the uruks. 'In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.' This passage seems to imply that the uruks actually appeared shortly before Gondor's great defeat of III 2475.

we know that uruks are not the half breeds. And with this infomation on Ugluk:

An uruk in the service of Saruman, the leader of the orc-band that captured Merry Brandybuck and Pippin Took at Parth Galen.

we know that Ugluk was an uruk, but not, I repeat not, a half breed. he was of orcish kind.

I'll also point out that the movie director probably just misinterpreted the info. What we saw on screen could very well have been what Uruks look like, as they were probably Uruks, but not half breeds.

[Morning Star]

I just re-read TTT chapter Helm's Deep and the invading army are at not one time called Uruk-hai. They are always refered to as Orcs, except in one instance when they wait for the dwan.

It is then mentioned that the sun will not be able to stop the half-orcs and goblin-men as well as the Dunlendings. Now it is not known by that passage if they meant just those which were half breeds or if the enitre army was a cross breed.

What we can make of this:

1) They are never refered to as Uruk-hai.

2) There are orcs and Dunlendings in their army.

3) Some of the forces are half-orcs and goblin-men.

This means that Saruman may have been able to breed an entire army of cross breeds, but they are not Uruk-hai. Uruk-hai and half breeds can both face sunlight but they are very different. Halfbreeds take the best from both men and orcs (with one side always the more dominant). Uruk-hai are Great Orcs, which Sauron bread from the finest in his army and put many spells and dark energies into them so their weaknesses are reduced. Saruman's army may have been half breeds to some extent, but he had no uruk-hai in the invasion of the Hornburg.

[Graeme Dice]

Ok, so the Uruk-Hai are the product of breeding men with orcs. So why is it that they say breeding orcs and goblins in the film?

Not orcs and goblins. Orcs and Gondor men.

[Beowulf]

Ok, so the Uruk-Hai are the product of breeding men with orcs. So why is it that they say breeding orcs and goblins in the film?

Not orcs and goblins. Orcs and Gondor men.

I heard golden men, not Gondor.