Marines versus Clones...Geonosis

[His Divine Shadow]

Don't coun't out the LAAT's, they got variable payload missiles, a max of 100kt focused in a 2 degree cone, thats gotta hurt, prolly what they used on the ships, and also 8 air-to-air rockets with a payload worth .1kt

[His Divine Shadow]

A blaster impact at 8MJ(which is a lowend) might not kill a SM but the force of the explosion on the ceramic(cheramics will react in that way) outer layer would probably knock him down and multiple shots might penetrate and do damage to the wearer and internal systems.

[xiophen]

A blaster impact at 8MJ(which is a lowend) might not kill a SM but the force of the explosion on the ceramic(cheramics will react in that way) outer layer would probably knock him down and multiple shots might penetrate and do damage to the wearer and internal systems.

In exchange bolters will most likly kill any Clone troop they hit given the fact that by 40k fluff they rip appart evyerthing short of Power armor level armor. and their is no proof that at best the clone armor may be comperable to Tau battle armor or Eldar Aspect armor in 40k terms given tat Clone armor worrks on similar concept.

I would give one marine dead per 5 - 10 shots reason beaing they can repel bolter weapons listed above, Necron gause rifles which are the weakest necron weapons these litterally tear targets apart at the subatomic level. and can punch through tank armor. Elar shuriken cat which fire a razor thin disc of wraithbone * one of the hardest substance in 40k* at speeds aproaching several machs tau Plasma rifles which would be easily compared to the Clone rifles.

in return I see 1 clone dead per 2 -3 bolter rounds fired, not counting the plethora of Sm man armed heavy weapons. clone armor looks slightly heavier the stormie armor which IIRC right from cannon sources get punched rather easy considering we see several individuals shot in the movies by blaster weapons lea shoulder luke hand the same blasts seem to punch ordanary stormie armor. plus you have the fact that ewoks which took out a good number of stomies with pre stone age weapons.

[xiophen]

Don't coun't out the LAAT's, they got variable payload missiles, a max of 100kt focused in a 2 degree cone, thats gotta hurt, prolly what they used on the ships, and also 8 air-to-air rockets with a payload worth .1kt

that kewl I forget what the the Thawks armor level rating are in the fluff 40k plus game but I knwo they do carry miniture version of titan weapons which could rip to shreds anything short of a cap ships armor.

[Ghost Rider]

All that you've put so far is your opinion, which is what HDS and Vympel are saying is somewhat useless.

I mean the weaponry in ST and SW look similar but are they similar in power?

[His Divine Shadow]

I would give one marine dead per 5 - 10 shots reason beaing they can repel bolter weapons listed above, Necron gause rifles which are the weakest necron weapons these litterally tear targets apart at the subatomic level. and can punch through tank armor. Elar shuriken cat which fire a razor thin disc of wraithbone * one of the hardest substance in 40k* at speeds aproaching several machs tau Plasma rifles which would be easily compared to the Clone rifles.

Necron weapons work on some technobabble stuff, and an 8MJ blaster shot would be the equivalent of 2kg of explosives, I doubt that'll take more than 2-3 shots.
I haven't seen any verifiable fluff on bolters either.

in return I see 1 clone dead per 2 -3 bolter rounds fired, not counting the plethora of Sm man armed heavy weapons. clone armor looks slightly heavier the stormie armor which IIRC right from cannon sources get punched rather easy considering we see several individuals shot in the movies by blaster weapons lea shoulder luke hand the same blasts seem to punch ordanary stormie armor. plus you have the fact that ewoks which took out a good number of stomies with pre stone age weapons.

The only stormies I see that are taken out, instead of merely botthered or tripped are well, can't remember seeing any.
We see varying levels of firepower in the movies, which should be expected with different weapons all with many power settings, we see them blowing up walls and through doors, I've attached pics and movies already.
So far thats more impressive than anything I've seen of bolters, which is practically zero.

[His Divine Shadow]

All that you've put so far is your opinion, which is what HDS and Vympel are saying is somewhat useless.

Infact I feel that if you(xiophen) don't provide quotes and sources and other verifiable material, then you'd better refrain from posting, I want proof, not opinions.
Same goes for the SB thread, I want proof.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

ARGH!!!! CURSES!! The one time I can't find my Space Marine Codex...

Well, I'll keep looking, as soon as I can find stuff out of there, I'll post it here.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

OK, the Space Marine Codex does not have anything useful in it, except for the intangibles apparantly considered worthless here. I will try to find my hopelessly lost rulebook, as I do recall some hard stuff from that.

[xiophen]

All that you've put so far is your opinion, which is what HDS and Vympel are saying is somewhat useless.

I mean the weaponry in ST and SW look similar but are they similar in power?

but then why does a SW weapon that estroyes an asteroid rate at much more powerful weapon level then a ST weapon that destroys exactly the same size rock?

Actually In the 40k game fluff and escriptions of weapons Lasguns have very simular termanology 40k BBB page 51 Eldar Mesh armor
" mesh armour is formed of tens of thousands of individual pieces of thermoplas interwoven to produce a dense material *wraithbone* spreading across a larger area, The thermoplas material disperses heat rapidly, givng reasonable protection agains energy weapons.
DOT HAVE MY tAU BOOK LOANED IT TO A FRIEND SO CANT QUTOE SAID STATS. now as far as resistance value 40k does throw out numbers cause the gam isnt usally required to but we can base armors ability to take fire by comparicon to the bolter round meantion on page 50 of the BBB which rabbit already meantioned
Lasguns: 40k BBB page 61
"the short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid tempurature change on the target's surface that it vaporizes in a small explosion."

unfortunatly only solid numbers that can be given are for bolters

Granted 40k often emits exact power values but fortunatly we have the bolter round in which to equate as a standard for weapons these are given some solid statisics. beyond that from all that I have in 40k they lack solid numbers unlike a more heavily stat pushed fan bases for SW, ST and B5. The best you could do is use boltersa and Sm armor as a gage for other wepaons and armors.

[Ghost Rider]

but then why does a SW weapon that estroyes an asteroid rate at much more powerful weapon level then a ST weapon that destroys exactly the same size rock?

WTF is this bullshit?!

Actually In the 40k game fluff and escriptions of weapons Lasguns have very simular termanology 40k BBB page 51 Eldar Mesh armor
" mesh armour is formed of tens of thousands of individual pieces of thermoplas interwoven to produce a dense material *wraithbone* spreading across a larger area, The thermoplas material disperses heat rapidly, givng reasonable protection agains energy weapons.
DOT HAVE MY tAU BOOK LOANED IT TO A FRIEND SO CANT QUTOE SAID STATS. now as far as resistance value 40k does throw out numbers cause the gam isnt usally required to but we can base armors ability to take fire by comparicon to the bolter round meantion on page 50 of the BBB which rabbit already meantioned
Lasguns: 40k BBB page 61
"the short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid tempurature change on the target's surface that it vaporizes in a small explosion."

That dar be some niceum technobabble.

unfortunatly only solid numbers that can be given are for bolters

Granted 40k often emits exact power values but fortunatly we have the bolter round in which to equate as a standard for weapons these are given some solid statisics. beyond that from all that I have in 40k they lack solid numbers unlike a more heavily stat pushed fan bases for SW, ST and B5. The best you could do is use boltersa and Sm armor as a gage for other wepaons and armors.

Are you going to give any or are you going to keep spouting opinions?

[xiophen]

but then why does a SW weapon that estroyes an asteroid rate at much more powerful weapon level then a ST weapon that destroys exactly the same size rock?

WTF is this bullshit?!

sorry probably pushhing sensative warsie thinking but if your just using the numbers used from scientific calcs of say a SW weapon blowing an asteroid apart then wouldnt simular weapons blowing apart asteroids of similar mass be of equal power levels just a general question posed to see what responces I get,

Actually In the 40k game fluff and escriptions of weapons Lasguns have very simular termanology 40k BBB page 51 Eldar Mesh armor
" mesh armour is formed of tens of thousands of individual pieces of thermoplas interwoven to produce a dense material *wraithbone* spreading across a larger area, The thermoplas material disperses heat rapidly, givng reasonable protection agains energy weapons.
DOT HAVE MY tAU BOOK LOANED IT TO A FRIEND SO CANT QUTOE SAID STATS. now as far as resistance value 40k does throw out numbers cause the gam isnt usally required to but we can base armors ability to take fire by comparicon to the bolter round meantion on page 50 of the BBB which rabbit already meantioned
Lasguns: 40k BBB page 61
"the short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid tempurature change on the target's surface that it vaporizes in a small explosion."

That dar be some niceum technobabble.

Actually its a fluff description from a reference source of an armor which if I recall right has a simular desgin and construction methods of said clone armor. This Armor is the closes representation of your Clone armor to be compared by in 40k. Has the same affect as cannon shots of clone and stormie armoer and if I recall from my Ics disapates energy just like a clones armor does. Unfortunatly no numbers of how much energy it can actually tak in damage 40k writer dont feel the need to say this armor can stop blah blah level of energy damage. Only weapon we really have solid stats on is the bolter round. other comparisons come from what other weapons do in comparison to the bolter.

unfortunatly only solid numbers that can be given are for bolters

Granted 40k often emits exact power values but fortunatly we have the bolter round in which to equate as a standard for weapons these are given some solid statisics. beyond that from all that I have in 40k they lack solid numbers unlike a more heavily stat pushed fan bases for SW, ST and B5. The best you could do is use boltersa and Sm armor as a gage for other wepaons and armors.

Are you going to give any or are you going to keep spouting opinions?

Actually Ive already stated that you would have to use the bolter as a standard for what 40k weapons and armor can do. and Ive given examples of armors and weapons that are an equivalent to said clone armors and weapons. GRanted the only thing that is again lacking is actual numbers but short of the bolter thats a litle harder to give. Im trying to frame this in a comparable reference instead of say oh blah blah clone will kill a dozen SM

Also the info on SM creation is from Sm fluff
usually Sm recruits come from hostile world fight arround 5 -10 years to achieve recruit level for SM, Get 10 years of genetic enhacement which includes 19 organs that make them able to survive in space for short terms of time toxin resistance blah blah blah, the have one organ implanted that connectes them to their Power armor. They also go through intene traing during that time span. After the 10 yrs they become scouts which last arround 5 years till they prove them selves in battle they then are placed in various SM units. Eventually after about a century or two of surviving they gain vetran status and some gain terminator armor. Standard Sm survives arroudn 300 years of combat older SMs can live to be greater then 1k years, Dante is 1.1k+ by blood angel fluff. *blood angle Codex 2nd ed page 92* As for combat experience the SM have lived in a galaxy at constant genocidal war for 10 millenium. They have knowledge form said duration in this fight the clones only have their training for the what last 5 years of life? SW has been extremly peaceful up to the clones time.

[Ghost Rider]

sorry probably pushhing sensative warsie thinking but if your just using the numbers used from scientific calcs of say a SW weapon blowing an asteroid apart then wouldnt simular weapons blowing apart asteroids of similar mass be of equal power levels just a general question posed to see what responces I get,

Nice to see what happens when uses no brain cells and makes a strawman comment out of somthing.

Actually its a fluff description from a reference source of an armor which if I recall right has a simular desgin and construction methods of said clone armor. This Armor is the closes representation of your Clone armor to be compared by in 40k. Has the same affect as cannon shots of clone and stormie armoer and if I recall from my Ics disapates energy just like a clones armor does. Unfortunatly no numbers of how much energy it can actually tak in damage 40k writer dont feel the need to say this armor can stop blah blah level of energy damage. Only weapon we really have solid stats on is the bolter round. other comparisons come from what other weapons do in comparison to the bolter.

Anything to back this up other than your own personal assumptions?

Actually Ive already stated that you would have to use the bolter as a standard for what 40k weapons and armor can do. and Ive given examples of armors and weapons that are an equivalent to said clone armors and weapons. GRanted the only thing that is again lacking is actual numbers but short of the bolter thats a litle harder to give. Im trying to frame this in a comparable reference instead of say oh blah blah clone will kill a dozen SM

Also the info on SM creation is from Sm fluff
usually Sm recruits come from hostile world fight arround 5 -10 years to achieve recruit level for SM, Get 10 years of genetic enhacement which includes 19 organs that make them able to survive in space for short terms of time toxin resistance blah blah blah, the have one organ implanted that connectes them to their Power armor. They also go through intene traing during that time span. After the 10 yrs they become scouts which last arround 5 years till they prove them selves in battle they then are placed in various SM units. Eventually after about a century or two of surviving they gain vetran status and some gain terminator armor. Standard Sm survives arroudn 300 years of combat older SMs can live to be greater then 1k years, Dante is 1.1k+ by blood angel fluff. *blood angle Codex 2nd ed page 92* As for combat experience the SM have lived in a galaxy at constant genocidal war for 10 millenium. They have knowledge form said duration in this fight the clones only have their training for the what last 5 years of life? SW has been extremly peaceful up to the clones time.

It's nice to see nothing patently useful coming out this.

[xiophen]

I would give one marine dead per 5 - 10 shots reason beaing they can repel bolter weapons listed above, Necron gause rifles which are the weakest necron weapons these litterally tear targets apart at the subatomic level. and can punch through tank armor. Elar shuriken cat which fire a razor thin disc of wraithbone * one of the hardest substance in 40k* at speeds aproaching several machs tau Plasma rifles which would be easily compared to the Clone rifles.

Necron weapons work on some technobabble stuff, and an 8MJ blaster shot would be the equivalent of 2kg of explosives, I doubt that'll take more than 2-3 shots.
I haven't seen any verifiable fluff on bolters either.
.

Well Rabbit basically quoted the BBB page 60, bolter descriptions unfortunatly numbers are a little weak the bolter round will use its depleted duranium core to penatrate a targets armor then use an explosive to shred the remainder of its target I think thers some officia stats in a Ca unfortunatly I dont have those books. As for Necron weapons we see them in both fluff and ingame ripping apart tanks with their hand held weapons. yeah its technobable but as a gun these guns can take out tanks if shot right.

in return I see 1 clone dead per 2 -3 bolter rounds fired, not counting the plethora of Sm man armed heavy weapons. clone armor looks slightly heavier the stormie armor which IIRC right from cannon sources get punched rather easy considering we see several individuals shot in the movies by blaster weapons lea shoulder luke hand the same blasts seem to punch ordanary stormie armor. plus you have the fact that ewoks which took out a good number of stomies with pre stone age weapons.

The only stormies I see that are taken out, instead of merely botthered or tripped are well, can't remember seeing any.
We see varying levels of firepower in the movies, which should be expected with different weapons all with many power settings, we see them blowing up walls and through doors, I've attached pics and movies already.
So far thats more impressive than anything I've seen of bolters, which is practically zero.[/quote]

Scanners not working cant show any of my pics from the books showing bolter impacts. as for a description rabbits given a good example of what bolters do. Unfortunatly 40 doesnt have movies to demonstrate its neatness. as for blaster setting in the movies we see various blaster impacts on targets set to a war footing that cause merely flesh wounds lukes hand lea's shoulder. droids blasting the columns in TPM storing of the palace. And Im sorry I remember several seens were yes most of the ewok weapons failed *what yah expect a stick with a rock put on it* but I recall other sences in ROTJ were we see stormies can dog piled by ewoks and getting crunched.
.

[Darth Wong]

But then why does a SW weapon that estroyes an asteroid rate at much more powerful weapon level then a ST weapon that destroys exactly the same size rock?

You are obviously confusing upper limits and lower limits. A one inch wide piece of paper will be destroyed by either a handgun bullet or a nuclear weapon. Does this mean that a handgun and a nuclear weapon are both of the same power level?

[xiophen]

sorry probably pushhing sensative warsie thinking but if your just using the numbers used from scientific calcs of say a SW weapon blowing an asteroid apart then wouldnt simular weapons blowing apart asteroids of similar mass be of equal power levels just a general question posed to see what responces I get,

Nice to see what happens when uses no brain cells and makes a strawman comment out of somthing.

OHhh arnt we intellegent we know how to throw insults at a question asked about weapon yields

Actually its a fluff description from a reference source of an armor which if I recall right has a simular desgin and construction methods of said clone armor. This Armor is the closes representation of your Clone armor to be compared by in 40k. Has the same affect as cannon shots of clone and stormie armoer and if I recall from my Ics disapates energy just like a clones armor does. Unfortunatly no numbers of how much energy it can actually tak in damage 40k writer dont feel the need to say this armor can stop blah blah level of energy damage. Only weapon we really have solid stats on is the bolter round. other comparisons come from what other weapons do in comparison to the bolter.

Anything to back this up other than your own personal assumptions?
[/quote]

Nope just remembering the phrasing of said clone armor and relating towhat would probably be the equivalent armor type in 40k. tryinhg to relate Star Wars to 40k in such a way that you can use what actually try an get hard numbers to equate 40k equipment to your Standard warsie technobable

Actually Ive already stated that you would have to use the bolter as a standard for what 40k weapons and armor can do. and Ive given examples of armors and weapons that are an equivalent to said clone armors and weapons. GRanted the only thing that is again lacking is actual numbers but short of the bolter thats a litle harder to give. Im trying to frame this in a comparable reference instead of say oh blah blah clone will kill a dozen SM

Also the info on SM creation is from Sm fluff
usually Sm recruits come from hostile world fight arround 5 -10 years to achieve recruit level for SM, Get 10 years of genetic enhacement which includes 19 organs that make them able to survive in space for short terms of time toxin resistance blah blah blah, the have one organ implanted that connectes them to their Power armor. They also go through intene traing during that time span. After the 10 yrs they become scouts which last arround 5 years till they prove them selves in battle they then are placed in various SM units. Eventually after about a century or two of surviving they gain vetran status and some gain terminator armor. Standard Sm survives arroudn 300 years of combat older SMs can live to be greater then 1k years, Dante is 1.1k+ by blood angel fluff. *blood angle Codex 2nd ed page 92* As for combat experience the SM have lived in a galaxy at constant genocidal war for 10 millenium. They have knowledge form said duration in this fight the clones only have their training for the what last 5 years of life? SW has been extremly peaceful up to the clones time.

It's nice to see nothing patently useful coming out this. [/quote]

actually giving a description of a marines combat knowledge experince and training in comparions to your clone. giving solid numbers of what the combat leaderships experince. the One thing SW lack is true major scale war experince. a 40 chapter of marines has 10k years worth of background knowledge and use. On a major battle field your SM commander would have in dantes case being the leader of a chapter for 1.1k years more major ballte engagement experince then yoda has in life. giving a reference to combat abilities for a 3rd time. If you see that as useless go back and do some thinking historically battleharden armies are always more dangerious then green armies no matter the training. Take Alexanders conquests his battle harden armies defeated more heavily armored and numerious armiesthat were green on any number of occaions and won every battle. they won cause they had discpline and combat experince over most every army they fought. same could be said of the Sm vs the clones.... so think stop being thick headed

[Ghost Rider]

To sum it up...

1. Style over substance.

2. Assumptions

3. More assumptions because my mind cannot understand why Calculations are needed in two sci-fi universes going head to head without it degenerating into fanboy lust.

So are you going to back up some of your shit or are you going to create wall after wall?

[xiophen]

But then why does a SW weapon that estroyes an asteroid rate at much more powerful weapon level then a ST weapon that destroys exactly the same size rock?

You are obviously confusing upper limits and lower limits. A one inch wide piece of paper will be destroyed by either a handgun bullet or a nuclear weapon. Does this mean that a handgun and a nuclear weapon are both of the same power level?

But SAxton used pure science to calculate the destruction of said asteroid. what if a shot of an asteroid that was of almost the exact same dimensions was shown and destroyed to the same effect as presented by the SW presentation. using the same science wouldnt the second shot at least be of the same calculation. this is comparison remember we do the same thing with medicines today ..... if it works on a rat or a monkeyit should work on a human..... Ill agree SW will kick he crap out of ST and B5 any day of the week...

[Ghost Rider]

So if it happens it must be the same thing...thanks for confirming Wong's suspison about Low-end and High End.

The Rat and Monkey analogy is fucked beyond words.

I mean because it works on one species physiology it must work on humans...yeah okay...sure.

[xiophen]

To sum it up...

1. Style over substance.

whers your style and substance besides uttering 4th grader obsinaties
look at whats being said instead of desciding to jump arround waving a fanboy stick.

2. Assumptions

On both sides theirs no proof your clone rifles would hurt a SM and tha a clone stand a snowballs chance in hell of surviving a bolter chell which in fluff can destroy barricaded door make a blood puddle of most things it shoots. ....


3. More assumptions because my mind cannot understand why Calculations are needed in two sci-fi universes going head to head without it degenerating into fanboy lust.

Then stop beng a fanboy and read what being printed. Im giving examples of equipment and weapons that are comperable to your clone weapons and equipment. that way you can give reasonable numbers on both sides I think it going to be hard for the ATOC clone army to break a dug in SM chapter given in fluff a single marine can slaughter dozens harden warriors equiped simularly to your clones.

So are you going to back up some of your shit or are you going to create wall after wall?

NO your being pig headed I was giving examples of marine trainign and experince and the combat knowledge a sm make your clone look like a puppy incomparisons for abilities in fluff. Your clone is a clone of a nasty human quick aged. thats it a SM is completly different. he enhanced in every fashion, str of 10 men, endurance of said ten men can so on so forth. if you refuse to acknoledge that then why even debate hell I could give you a game stat of a clone if you want I was actually working on creating their army for a conversion for 40k. At best by 40k standard your clone is probably an improved IG with maybe better armor and a better weapon.

[Ghost Rider]

BWAHAHAHAHA

In the end does that mean anything other than the SM is better trained?

I go against a veteran Roman soldier with a M-16...the Roman is obviously beyond me in both years and skill...but with my weapon he dies in less time than for him to utter for Caesar.

Yeah great argument there.

[xiophen]

BWAHAHAHAHA

In the end does that mean anything other than the SM is better trained?

I go against a veteran Roman soldier with a M-16...the Roman is obviously beyond me in both years and skill...but with my weapon he dies in less time than for him to utter for Caesar.

Yeah great argument there.

Oh fancy comback no a SM has better armor questionablly better weapons, He has 30+ years of combat experince and has been genetically enhanced to rip apart dozens of men with his bare hands with out breaking a sweat.

A clone is a just that beond the aging and the slight mental tweaks to be obediant all they have is 5 years of training.

Better anknowledgy I give you a sword then I get a mongel from the mongel hordes how long do you think youd last?

[Ghost Rider]

So you have proof behind your statement that the SM has better armor and weapons or are you just pulling that out of your ass?

[NecronLord]

I would give one marine dead per 5 - 10 shots reason beaing they can repel bolter weapons listed above, Necron gause rifles which are the weakest necron weapons these litterally tear targets apart at the subatomic level. and can punch through tank armor. Elar shuriken cat which fire a razor thin disc of wraithbone * one of the hardest substance in 40k* at speeds aproaching several machs tau Plasma rifles which would be easily compared to the Clone rifles.

Necron weapons work on some technobabble stuff, and an 8MJ blaster shot would be the equivalent of 2kg of explosives, I doubt that'll take more than 2-3 shots.
I haven't seen any verifiable fluff on bolters either.

The weakest necron weapon is the disruption fields on the hands of some necrons. It's a CC device...

Well, quite. The technobabble produces in the end the ranged weapon mass spectrometer of death.

I might have some fluff somewhere...

[NecronLord]

A blaster impact at 8MJ(which is a lowend) might not kill a SM but the force of the explosion on the ceramic(cheramics will react in that way) outer layer would probably knock him down and multiple shots might penetrate and do damage to the wearer and internal systems.

One shot to the chest from a clone rifle will kill a human even if he is wearing power armour. It will send him flying a few feet and cause blunt force trauma and KE transfer, which will shred his organs. Technically roman armour is bulletproof (most rounded bullets at any rate) however I would not enjoy testing that resistance, due to the reasons above) The SM's may have Genetically enhanced muscles and ligaments, but a double tap from a clone rifle on full will kill them.

As far as combat experinece anything short of a jedi is going to end up lacking considering that even raw recruit Sm in power armor have 20+ year of training and combat experince. when it comes to commanders well yoda is a young pup to most chapters commanders who unlike yoda have fought one war after another for arround 1k years

Bullshit. 1K is very very old for a SM