Where does the animal sympathy come from?

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2006-10-13 06:10pm

I'm actually referring to a specific type of example. Picture this. You're in the movie theater and watching a dozen people getting blown to bits. Head's and limbs flying everywhere. This person gunned down pleading for their life. Virtual silence. No special reaction.

All of a sudden, a puppy gets stepped on and killed. Everyone gasps in horror. Groans and sighs are heard everywhere. "Poor thing". "Oh I'd KILL him".

From a purely evolutionary standpoint, isn't this very weird? Shouldn't we naturally care about our own species first? Where does this extra special care for animals come from?

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2006-10-13 06:20pm

Well, we have been biologically wired to view our our infants as cute and adorable for obvious reasons. Babies typically have unique features (like bigger eyes and heads) that stand out in a number of animals that make us go "awwww". This is probably why humans find a number of marine mammals cute and arachnids, for instance, to be anything but cute.

DesertFly · Post by **DesertFly** » 2006-10-13 06:22pm

I've wondered about this as well. In fact, I remember reading a Hornblower book, and there was a passage in there talking about how the men on the ship were much more displeased with shooting animals in a supply train than the soldiers, and how odd that was to Hornblower. I came up with one main theory, at least as far as enemies getting killed goes, and that is, deep down, people feel bad when animals, who haven't chosen to fight and don't deserve to die, get killed, whereas enemies, who know what they are getting into, may even somewhat deserve it. Also, most animals don't just try to kill you (or the main character). An opposing soldier will.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-13 06:38pm

Most young mammal offspring (whether they are puppies, human infants, baby elephants, panda bear cubs and baby gorillas) are often very, very cute and normal humans would instinctively want to protect and nurture the sweet little angels. Only sick, sociopathic fucks would ever want to drown kittens, club seal cubs or skin a baby orangutan for it’s fur. It’s as simple as that.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2006-10-13 06:53pm

I remember Denis Leary going over a similar theme in one of his comedy routines (rants).

"What are you?"

"I'm an otter!"

"And what do you do?"

"I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands!"

"...You're free to go."

---

"What are you?"

"I'm a cow."

"Get on the meat truck!"

"But I'm an animal! I have rights!"

"You're a baseball glove and a ribeye steak. Now get on the truck!"

The analogy being made isn't that far off, I think.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-10-13 06:53pm

Big Orange wrote:Only sick, sociopathic fucks would ever want to <snip>club seal cubs<snip>

What you don't like clubbing baby seals? Mine like Eurobeat and Synthpop, but if it's wrong...

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-13 07:06pm

I guess baby primates are seen as very cute, since they are eerily similar to human infants; in a old BBC news about a baby gorilla sent to Germany from Bristol zoo, the adorable little thing was dressed in human baby clothes, wore nappies and was bottled fed like a human child. Also the baby gorilla had similar facial expressions and body gestures to a human baby. I guess we can relate to animals who are comparitively closely related to us and we can sympathise with them more than we sympathise with a snake or cockroach.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2006-10-13 07:17pm

I'll put it this way.

Which would you feel of these two mammals would you feel worse about clubbing.

A

Or

B

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-10-13 07:35pm

Like I said, the baby seals love the clubs, even discos, but old angry guys certainly are chick magnets!

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-10-13 07:37pm

Desertfly has it. Humans are roughly on a par with you, mentally. You can look at them and they'll look right back at you with the same evil cunning and attempt to second-guess your mind.

To continue the hornblower thing, which would you feel worst about killing on the high seas, a boat full of enemy soldiers that want to sink you, or a boat full of downs syndrome gentle simpletons?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-10-13 07:58pm

Another issue is that of vulnerability. Humans at least have the theoretical chance to defendthemselves. That poor little puppy didn't have a chance!

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2006-10-14 01:33am

General Schatten wrote:Like I said, the baby seals love the clubs, even discos, but old angry guys certainly are chick magnets!

Maan, why club the baby seal? There's no good eatin' on one of those. All fur. Just keep an eye on the baby seal and wait for its mother to come out onto the ice. Then club the mother. Much better eatting there. And less cute, so you don't feel so bad about clubbing a seal.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-10-14 01:51am

Dude, mother seals don't dance very well... I'm sorry if it's a generalization, but it holds true. You've never seen a baby seal clubbing until you've seen one do the funky chicken.

PS: I do not advocate the bludgeoning of baby seals, but I did make it funny by using a different definition of 'clubbing'.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2006-10-14 02:45am

Justforfun000 wrote:I'm actually referring to a specific type of example. Picture this. You're in the movie theater and watching a dozen people getting blown to bits. Head's and limbs flying everywhere. This person gunned down pleading for their life. Virtual silence. No special reaction.

All of a sudden, a puppy gets stepped on and killed. Everyone gasps in horror. Groans and sighs are heard everywhere. "Poor thing". "Oh I'd KILL him".

Is this really true though? I mean, in this case, you've got human enemies shooting each other, an innocent being shot and a baby animal being crushed to death.

Regarding human enemies, I bet if that puppy was a vicious, rabid attack-dog then people would similarly feel no sympathy. Human bad-guys just happen to be vicious, rabid 'attack-humans'. So being enemies, this doesn't elicit sympathy.

With an innocent being shot, shooting somebody is much less visceral than stepping on their neck as their desperate eyes bug out and they make gurgling, sucking sounds while trying to scream. So someone being shot doesn't elicit much sympathy.

Then with the puppy, not only is it cute, but it's not an enemy nor is it being killed in a detached manner. I expect that the human equivalent, viciously crushing a young child to death, would cause an audience more anguish that the puppy does.

I think the human-animal double standard exists, not in audiences, but in rating systems. Depicitions of killing humans is much less regulated than depictions of animal cruelty. Personally I think that, deep down, people see defeating your enemies as something that should be imitated, whereas for an audience member to imitate animal cruelty they'd probably be killing innocent animals.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2006-10-14 07:46pm

Big Orange wrote:Only sick, sociopathic fucks would ever want to drown kittens, club seal cubs or skin a baby orangutan for it’s fur. It’s as simple as that.

Or they just want to make a profit. Are hog butchers sociopathic fucks? What about fishermen?

Personally I lean toward Pinto's theory: the animals that humans consider cute and react to in such a way tend to have features that click into our recognition signals for our own infants and thus arouse our protective impulses. I somehow doubt Big Orange would have quite the same reaction to people who collect snake or alligator skins.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2006-10-14 11:40pm

Dude, mother seals don't dance very well... I'm sorry if it's a generalization, but it holds true. You've never seen a baby seal clubbing until you've seen one do the funky chicken.

PS: I do not advocate the bludgeoning of baby seals, but I did make it funny by using a different definition of 'clubbing'.

damn you must have never visited the clubs in furryland. I heard the mother seals be tearing up the floors. I heard the walruses like 80's R&B funk and disco. The most perferred song i heard is "Burn rubber on me" by the Gap Band.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-15 02:25am

Junghalli wrote:
Big Orange wrote:Only sick, sociopathic fucks would ever want to drown kittens, club seal cubs or skin a baby orangutan for it’s fur. It’s as simple as that.
Or they just want to make a profit. Are hog butchers sociopathic fucks? What about fishermen?

Well people who club baby seals or kidnap baby orangutans do want to make a profit (either out of their fur or as exotic pets) and the only thing that separates them from hog butchers is that they are decimating rare species (although fishermen can be culpable in that). And pigs can be seen as cute aninmals as well, but you can't relate to fish at all as sympathetic animals.

Personally I lean toward Pinto's theory: the animals that humans consider cute and react to in such a way tend to have features that click into our recognition signals for our own infants and thus arouse our protective impulses.

Like baby gorillas and orangutans?

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2006-10-15 06:23pm

Big Orange wrote:Well people who club baby seals or kidnap baby orangutans do want to make a profit (either out of their fur or as exotic pets) and the only thing that separates them from hog butchers is that they are decimating rare species (although fishermen can be culpable in that).

Is that or a concession, or are you arguing that anybody who kills cows or pigs (a perfect legitimate profession in most societies including our own) is a sociopath?

And pigs can be seen as cute aninmals as well, but you can't relate to fish at all as sympathetic animals.

Why does that matter? Ethically it's the same, except perhaps insofar as you could argue a baby mammal has more self-awareness than a fish.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-10-15 06:25pm

Dennis Toy wrote:
Dude, mother seals don't dance very well... I'm sorry if it's a generalization, but it holds true. You've never seen a baby seal clubbing until you've seen one do the funky chicken.

PS: I do not advocate the bludgeoning of baby seals, but I did make it funny by using a different definition of 'clubbing'.
damn you must have never visited the clubs in furryland. I heard the mother seals be tearing up the floors. I heard the walruses like 80's R&B funk and disco. The most perferred song i heard is "Burn rubber on me" by the Gap Band.

Quit the fucking spam.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-15 08:26pm

Junghalli wrote: Is that or a concession, or are you arguing that anybody who kills cows or pigs (a perfect legitimate profession in most societies including our own) is a sociopath?

I concede that killing domesticated farm animals is not done by sociopaths (but Fred West was once worked in a slaughter house), but I was mostly talking about illegal poachers who kill animals for no real reason except making tacky trinkets out of them.

Plus what sick monster would want to kill cute animals like this?

Why does that matter? Ethically it's the same, except perhaps insofar as you could argue a baby mammal has more self-awareness than a fish.

To put it bluntly fish don't look at all cute and are not truly self-aware like mammals are (as far as we know).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-10-16 03:48am

Have you ever eaten lamb, Orange?

Incidentally, I can't say the panda's that cute. I've been put off those critters by just how naff they are.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-10-16 04:03am

I've eaten all manner of cute things.

Lamb, veal, kangaroo, wallaby, emu, deer, moose, possum...

More that I cannot think of.

Doesn't mean that I don't think that they're cute, I also think that for the most part they're fucking tasty.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-10-16 04:52am

NecronLord wrote: Incidentally, I can't say the panda's that cute. I've been put off those critters by just how naff they are.

Awwwwwww, but look at the sweet little poppet waddling through the snow! How could that not be cute?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-10-16 04:57am

I'd like to cruise around in my Hummscalade spraying aerosol at baby seals.

On another note, no one sheds a tear when the vicious lion gets shotgunned by Val Kilmer. So nay. We just choose to put human qualities in animals - we cry when babies and baby animals get killed, laugh when badguys and lions get eaten.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2006-10-16 02:04pm

Big Orange wrote:I concede that killing domesticated farm animals is not done by sociopaths (but Fred West was once worked in a slaughter house), but I was mostly talking about illegal poachers who kill animals for no real reason except making tacky trinkets out of them.

Again, I'm curious as to whether you have the same reaction to people who collect snake or animal skins. They do the exact same thing, the only difference is the animals they kill and skin aren't generally considered cute.

To put it bluntly fish don't look at all cute

So what? Why should killing one animal be any worse than killing another simply because one looks better to us?

and are not truly self-aware like mammals are (as far as we know).

That is a legitimate point.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Where does the animal sympathy come from?

Where does the animal sympathy come from?

Re: Where does the animal sympathy come from?