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Post by Darth Wong »

Ender wrote:What were the name of those repair droids that ended up being sentient? Its on the tip of my tongue, but I can't recall it right now.
Exocomps, although I didn't get the impression that they had what you would regard as a human-like intelligence. They were capable of independent decision-making and prioritizing beyond their programming, but that is a characteristic of a learning computer with built-in directives.
For me, the real question is where are all the nonsentient robots. We are building them left and right here today, where are they in the future?
I think they can't afford to make them, because they don't know how to design a purpose-built robot without overcomplicating the living fuck out of it. I've said before that if the Federation tried to design a projectile-firing machine-gun, it would end up requiring a computer console, supercooling coils, robotics, maybe a transporter circuit, and some sort of terminal. And it would stop working if you got too close to a wonky electromagnetic field.

Maybe that's the real breakthrough in Data's brain design: it's actually pretty reliable. A regular Federation computer, even if it could be miniaturized to fit into an android head, would fuck up the minute he got near a lightning storm or electrical transformer.
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Post by Darth Servo »

Wow, what a discussion has bloomed from the email of one insignificant trektard. You guys still want me to post his next repsonse even though it might disrupt this debate?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Darth Servo wrote:Wow, what a discussion has bloomed from the email of one insignificant trektard. You guys still want me to post his next repsonse even though it might disrupt this debate?
Sure; this debate should probably be split anyway. It really has almost nothing to do with the original Trektard's argument.
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Post by chitoryu12 »

You know, I WAS going to take apart his every sentence, but I seriously did a spit-take all over my keyboard while reading his "arguement".
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Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Has the guy replied to this latest rebuttal?
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Post by Darth Servo »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Has the guy replied to this latest rebuttal?
No, not yet. He took about a week to get back after my first response, so I plan on expecting a similar amount of time for the next reply. Bullshit :wanker: takes a long time to write you know.
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Post by Darth Servo »

More from Mr. Long winded...
I've studied the issue somewhat thoroughly, and I've updated my analysis. I've also completley redone my hypthetical scenario. I no longer believe the Federation would have to wage an insurrection, I now believe that the Federation could adapt to unique Imperial technology in sufficient time to prevent the hostile take-over of key planets such as Earth, Vulcan, Romulus, etc.

Firstly, I would like to conduct a brief comparison of Federation and Imperial tech:

Translation:

Federation has pocket devices, small and effective with the exception of the people of El-Adrel.

Empire has huge robots that are massive targets, can't be carried by individuals, and are huge targets.

Repair:

Federation has nano-bots that cover the hull and are near impossible targets.

Empire has huge droids that are cumbersome and difficult to move around. Easy targets for highly accurate Federation weapons...

Countermeasures:

Federation can shoot down single bursts of enemy fire, even projectiles moving at the speed of c (as seen at the end of "The Price").

Empire has huge gun towers with manual gunners that frequently miss at point blank range. (As seen in A New Hope and Return of the Jedi).

Accuracy:

Federation can hit single person from orbit, can hit projectile moving at the speed of light.

Empire can't hit huge target right in front of them (In an New Hope when they couldn't shoot down a few fighters even while they were right in their faces. Now even if though they were designed to hit capital ships, they still had manual gunning crews, and were nonetheless unable to hit a target). Fighters had to get right next to the ventilation shaft to hit it (a joke even by contemporary standards).

Sensors:

Federation can detect the DNA of a single cell from high distance (as seen in The Hunted, where a man was genetically engineered with altered organelle membranes to prevent the Enterprise sensors from detecting him. Not based on Comm badges now, is it?)

Imperial sensors can't figure out who or what is on a ship, in A New Hope Darth Vader had to run around grabbing people by the neck in order to get any good intel. So much more advanced than the Federation...

Ground Forces:

Federation phasers are accurate, precise, widley variable to fit many uses, and powerful. They can fire at diffrent arc settings (a wide arc phaser would lay waste to a Jedi in a few seconds). They also can transport around an area at will, a huge tactical advantage over Imperial forces which either have to run from place to place or have to use huge transports (big target).

Imperial forces have lots of weapons that are totally pointless in a more advanced Federation-era state of warfare. Their huge transporters would be uneccessary to the Federation and could easily be wiped out by orbital bombardment.

To be continued...
Enjoy
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Post by Darth Servo »

My reply...
I've studied the issue somewhat thoroughly, and I've updated my analysis. I've also completley redone my hypthetical scenario. I no longer believe the Federation would have to wage an insurrection, I now believe that the Federation could adapt to unique Imperial technology in sufficient time to prevent the hostile take-over of key planets such as Earth, Vulcan, Romulus, etc.

Firstly, I would like to conduct a brief comparison of Federation and Imperial tech:

Translation:

Federation has pocket devices, small and effective with the exception of the people of El-Adrel.
The Universal Translator has been highly overrated and clearly relies on a database.

Mike's database entries on the UT
Empire has huge robots that are massive targets, can't be carried by individuals, and are huge targets.
A protocol droid only needs the body for movement. 3PO's head worked just fine when it was detached from his body in AOTC.

Besides, you are completely ignoring the sheer quantity of data involved. HOW MANY languages can the Universal Translator handle? 6 MILLION like C3PO can?

And even IF I grant you superior translation capabilities (which I am not) how will that help you in battle?

Repair:
Federation has nano-bots that cover the hull and are near impossible targets.
Bullshit. Name ONE instance where the Federation has used nanobots for repair. After the fighting in both Best of Both Worlds and Nemesis, the Enterprise had to return to a SPACE DOCK for repairs.
Empire has huge droids that are cumbersome and difficult to move around. Easy targets for highly accurate Federation weapons...
Accuracy you have failed to demonstrate and have ignored counter evidence for.
Countermeasures:

Federation can shoot down single bursts of enemy fire, even projectiles moving at the speed of c (as seen at the end of "The Price").
The torp wasn't moving anywhere near c. Do you really think you can get away with such blatent lies like this? And once again, like with their orbital
bombardment, this shot was under ideal conditions. No enemy firing back. No ECM. Once again, we NEVER see such targeting during combat.
Empire has huge gun towers with manual gunners that frequently miss at point blank range. (As seen in A New Hope and Return of the Jedi).
You're completely ignoring the rebuttal to this point which proves you wrong about said guns being aimed manually. The only thing that was missed in ROTJ were tiny fighters, NOT the big cap ships which is what the
gunners were primarily targeting.

Furthermore, in your example from "The Price", the E-D fired twice at the missle and only ONE shot actually hit it.
Accuracy:

Federation can hit single person from orbit, can hit projectile moving at the speed of light.
Bullshit.
Empire can't hit huge target right in front of them (In an New Hope when they couldn't shoot down a few fighters even while they were right in their faces. Now even if though they were designed to hit capital ships, they still had manual gunning crews, and were nonetheless unable to hit a target).
Are you equally dismissive of the main turrets on an
Iowa class battleship because they can't hit fighters,
even though the AA guns CAN?
Fighters had to get right next to the ventilation shaft to hit it (a joke even by contemporary standards).
Liar. The fighter were NOT "right next to" the ventilation shaft. It was still a ways down the trench as was seen by the torps rushing ahead of the
fighter for several seconds.
Sensors:

Federation can detect the DNA of a single cell from high distance (as seen in The Hunted, where a man was genetically engineered with altered organelle membranes to prevent the Enterprise sensors from detecting him. Not based on Comm badges now, is it?)
Only a truly delusional trekkie would actually use a case of Fed sensors FAILING to pick up something as proof of their superiority. All this incident proves is that Fed sensors are worse than modern day anti-shoplifting security detectors.
Imperial sensors can't figure out who or what is on a ship, in A New Hope Darth Vader had to run around grabbing people by the neck in order to get any good intel. So much more advanced than the Federation...
They were looking for COMPUTER DATA. Name a single
time when a Fed ship was able to determine the
contents of an enemy computer simply by scanning it.
Ground Forces:

Federation phasers are accurate, precise, widley variable to fit many uses, and powerful.
Prove they are powerful when we have repeatedly seen light weight packing crates used as cover in Trek fire fights.

Furthermore, the 'jack of all trades, master of none' mentality employed by Fed phasers is actually a TERRIBLE idea for a combat weapon as seen by the numerosu times phasers are rendered inoperable by something as simple as a solar flare.
They can fire at diffrent arc settings (a wide arc phaser would lay waste to a Jedi in a few seconds).
Given that Jedi can absorb energy like Yoda demonstrated in both AOTC and ROTS and Vader demonstrated in TESB, I have two words for you: PROVE IT.

A phaser on wide beam wouldn't even tickle a Jedi.
They also can transport around an area at will,
Unless the destination is shielded or is constructed of heavy metals or is employing jamming devices or there is an ion storm, or weak electrical activity or...

Once again, the trekkie depends on perfect conditions and the Imperials to just sit there for his scenario to work.
a huge tactical advantage over Imperial forces which either have to run from place to place or have to use huge transports (big target).
Who has the advantage when your transporters are rendered inoperable by standard Imperial ECM? The guys with the big war machines (Imperials) or the guys on foot (Federation)?
Imperial forces have lots of weapons that are totally pointless in a more advanced Federation-era state of warfare.
Based on what?
Their huge transporters would be uneccessary to the Federation and could easily be wiped out by orbital bombardment.
What makes you think the Fed ship will be able to just bomb from orbit when it will have its hands full dealing with the Imperial ships in orbit?
To be continued...
I can hardly wait. :P

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Post by Batman »

Translation:
Federation has pocket devices, small and effective with the exception of the people of El-Adrel.
As evidenced by-what, exactly?
Empire has huge robots that are massive targets, can't be carried by individuals, and are huge targets.
So being the approximate size and shape of a human adult makes one a huge/massive target. Uhuh.
Repair:
Federation has nano-bots that cover the hull and are near impossible targets.
As evidenced by what, exactly? Not that them being near impossible targets makes any sense in the first place, if they cover the hull you will AUTOMATICALLY hit them when you hit the hull, and Wars weapons WILL hit the hull.
Empire has huge droids that are cumbersome and difficult to move around. Easy targets for highly accurate Federation weapons...
So being the approximate size of a wastepaper basket qualifies as huge now, does it. Are those the same highly accurate Federation weapons that routinely miss several-times-the-size-of-a-Nimitz targets at ranges that modern day fighter pilots would consider a dogfight?
Countermeasures:
Federation can shoot down single bursts of enemy fire, even projectiles moving at the speed of c (as seen at the end of "The Price").
.
Projectiles cannot move at c by definition. Federation forces never, ever bother to shoot at incoming torpedoes (which generally make modern day missiles look agile). Neither does any other Trek power.
Empire has huge gun towers with manual gunners that frequently miss at point blank range. (As seen in A New Hope and Return of the Jedi).
Complete failure to show that the gunners have anything to do with the actual aiming (and we saw human gunners in ROTJ?), complete ignorance of the problem of using anti-capship guns against fighters. By his reasoning the Iowas had lousy targeting because her 16in guns couldn't hit incoming Zeros.
Accuracy:
Federation can hit single person from orbit, can hit projectile moving at the speed of light.
Projectiles can't move at the speed of light in the first place, they routinely miss massive targets at what are modern dogfighting ranges, they NEVER EVER shoot down incoming fire, I can't recall the Feds ever hitting a single person from orbit and even if they did what are the circumstances of them doing so?
Empire can't hit huge target right in front of them (In an New Hope when they couldn't shoot down a few fighters even while they were right in their faces.
In the presence of MASSIVE JAMMING, and oh, I'm afraid the Feds can't hit massively HUGER targets right in front of them. Virtually EVER. The TIEs in ANH were gunning for highly agile fighters in a high level ECM environment. Fed ships routinely miss targets that make a supertanker look nimble.
Now even if though they were designed to hit capital ships, they still had manual gunning crews, and were nonetheless unable to hit a target).
Is this supposed to mean something?
Fighters had to get right next to the ventilation shaft to hit it (a joke even by contemporary standards).
That's funny, I remember both Luke and Red Leader being a considerable distance away from the ventilation shat when they released their torpedoes...
Not that modern day missiles are capable of doing 70,000 g turns but hey...
Sensors:
Federation can detect the DNA of a single cell from high distance (as seen in The Hunted, where a man was genetically engineered with altered organelle membranes to prevent the Enterprise sensors from detecting him. Not based on Comm badges now, is it?)
The same sensors that can't detect a ship hiding in a planet's magnetosphere? And how exactly is that going to help the Feds in a vs?
Ground Forces:
Federation phasers are accurate, precise, widley variable to fit many uses, and powerful.
Accurate and precise are basically interchangeable and both are wrong. TNG phasers are unaimable like nobody's business. The fact that people manage to hit with them AT ALL is a minor miracle.
They can fire at diffrent arc settings (a wide arc phaser would lay waste to a Jedi in a few seconds).
Because we have seen that happen so many times. Oh wait. We've seen stun widebeam exactly ONCE, and other widebeam settings at point-blank ranges. Assuming the Jedi stays in place to be HIT by the phaser how dow we know the widebeam retain enough punch to so much as tickle him?
They also can transport around an area at will
Assuming there is nothing as pesky as certain minerals or ordinary power transformers around. Or your technobabble inaccurately labelled scientific anomaly of the week. Or any of the other thousand things that render transporters unfeasible.
, a huge tactical advantage over Imperial forces which either have to run from place to place or have to use huge transports (big target).
Does this guy actually know what huge MEANS? Empire APCs are no larger than modern day ones.
Imperial forces have lots of weapons that are totally pointless in a more advanced Federation-era state of warfare. Their huge transporters would be uneccessary to the Federation and could easily be wiped out by orbital bombardment.
Has this guy any idea about the firepower and speed differential ebtween Wars and Trek?
Valen has this guy any idea, period?
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Post by Darth Servo »

Batman wrote:
Ground Forces:
Federation phasers are accurate, precise, widley variable to fit many uses, and powerful.
Accurate and precise are basically interchangeable and both are wrong. TNG phasers are unaimable like nobody's business. The fact that people manage to hit with them AT ALL is a minor miracle.
Thanks for reminding me to send him a link to Trek Miss 2 :twisted:
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Post by Ryushikaze »

Sensors:

Federation can detect the DNA of a single cell from high distance (as seen in The Hunted, where a man was genetically engineered with altered organelle membranes to prevent the Enterprise sensors from detecting him. Not based on Comm badges now, is it?)
Not that he's a single cell, but the Tantive IV could determine that the life sign they were picking up across planetary distances was Yoda just from the bioscans. Luke's computer could 'see' the exhaust port despite jamming so bad it caused distortions, and through the metal of the Death Star itself.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Why even bother answering claims that come with no evidence or quantification attached? Of course he can say that phasers are "precise"; it's a qualitative statement which is meaningless. Relative to a 14th century cannon, I'm sure they're quite precise.
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Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

A pity I'm in a different time zone, the latest response from this guy has already been hung, drawn and quartered in the middle of the night where I am. I can't think of much to add that hasn't already been covered, since there has been no evidence of the Federation using nanites to repair their hulls, but does this guy actually think that Romulus is a Federation planet from the way he's written it?
Also the small matter of no Trek power demonstrating point-defence capabilites except in non-canon games, which can only be partly explained by the fact that most Trek torpedo weapons are launched from close range making it difficult, but not impossible to hit them.
And as for the droids, he obviously hasn't considered that Wars droid 'targets' that the Federation encounter will actually shoot back unlike their Federation counterparts (if they even have any).
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Post by Darth Servo »

More from our little buddy. He's actually bothering to respond to actual points!!!
Alex Lamb wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
Repair:

Federation has nano-bots that cover the hull and are near impossible targets.
So Scotty and Geordi just sat around twiddling their thumbs all day because these imaginary nano-bots of yours did all the repairs for them, eh?
Watch Voyager. They used the nanobots. Even with nanobots, you still need an engineer ot guide the nanobots and produce hypothesis about problems. And yes, Star Trek repair has improved by leaps and bounds from having the cheif engineer crawl into the problme area (as seen in TOS), to having small droids (TNG), to having nanobots cover the hull in Voyager.
Would you mind telling us which modern day missles can execute a 90 degree turn over a space of two meters, since you seem to think hitting the port in ANH was "a joke"
Why on Earth would the missle need to take a 90 degree turn. The ventilation shaft opens along the end of the trench, which is a line wrapping around the death star. So I don't really see why the missle would need to turn 90 degrees.

Or are you saying that there is a turn in the ventilation shaft as a certain point?

Secondly, I have to say that I haven't seen any of the Star Wars films in years, so I have no idea how Star Wars shields work...
(a wide arc phaser would lay waste to a Jedi in a few seconds).
Before or after the Fed red-shirts are turned into swiss cheese from the massive ammounts of blaster fire from Stormtroopers, battle droids, automatic weapons like the E-web (seen on Hoth in TESB), etc?
The Federation would have already transported all the stormtroopers into the sun (check and mate).
Sometimes the comedy just writes itself. :lol:
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Post by Darth Servo »

Darth Wong wrote:Why even bother answering claims that come with no evidence or quantification attached?
mmm, because its fun. :P
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Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Heh, he still hasn't proven the existence of Federation nano-repairs. What the hell is he going on about with the trench? Does he even know? And not seeing any of the SW films in years says it all, really :lol:
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Post by Batman »

*blinks*
The opening of the ventilation shaft is at the bottom of the trench. Which is horizontal. Whereas the shaft is vertical. But he doesn't see the need for a 90 degree turn (ignoring for the moment that we see the torpedoes execute the turn)? Argh.
So modern day Trek hulls may actually BE covered with nanobots. As those bots are going to be vaporized along with the hull they're sitting on that's going to help the Feds how exactly?
And beam the stormtroopers into the sun, heh? Has transporter range increased by a couple orders of magnitude while I wasn't looking?
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Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Either that or he thinks the Imperial ships are going to just sit by the sun with their shields down and let the Feds beam them off, ignoring all the transporter rebuttals and the need for the Feds to drop (metaphasic) shields to use the transporters in such an environment :wanker: :roll:
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Post by Darth Servo »

My easy quick response:
Alex Lamb wrote:Watch Voyager. They used the nanobots.
I don't suppose you'd care to NAME this incredible episode where they had nanobots repair the ship. Besides, IF they have nanobots all over the hull, then they are GUARANTEED to be hit as any hit to the hull will ALSO hit the nanobots.
Even with nanobots, you still need an engineer ot guide the nanobots and produce hypothesis about problems.
You need a LOT more than that. Nano-bots are pure fanboy wank.

Mike's nano-bot essay
And yes, Star Trek repair has improved by leaps and bounds from having the cheif engineer crawl into the problme area (as seen in TOS), to having small droids (TNG), to having nanobots cover the hull in Voyager.
Wrong. The exocomps were a FAILURE. We never once hear about them after "Quality of Life".

TNG, DN9 and Voyager ALL featured crew members, including the cheif engineer crawling around those ridiculous Jeffries tubes, a terrible idea that any competant real life engineer could have explained to the writers decades ago.
Why on Earth would the missle need to take a 90 degree turn. The ventilation shaft opens along the end of the trench, which is a line wrapping around the death star.
The shaft is on the FLOOR of the trench and as such is PERPENDICULAR to it.

Image
So I don't really see why the missle would need to turn 90 degrees.
So basically you flunked geometry. :lol:
Secondly, I have to say that I haven't seen any of the Star Wars films in years, so I have no idea how Star Wars shields work...
Well then, don't you think you should familiarize yourself a bit better with the material in question BEFORE jumping into a debate on the subject?

How SW shields work is irrelevant. What they are capable of is all that matters. And what does this have to do with torp maneuverability?
The Federation would have already transported all the stormtroopers into the sun (check and mate).
No they wouldn't because

1) Transporter range is NOT long enough
2) Descent proves that the E-D can transport approximately ONE person per second.
3) The Empire will be using jamming equipment and shields to make transporters useless. I have listed MANY things that completely prevent transporters from functioning properly. You continue to ignore that list.

Tell me why not ONCE in Canon Trek have they EVER beamed enemy soldiers away? Instead transporters are used to beam troops ONTO a ship. They are used for BOARDING, not removal of enemy troops.
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Post by Darth Servo »

MOTS:
Okay, so why don't they just fire at the ventilation shaft whilst lateral to the Death Star, instead of going into the trench.

Also, it is sort of important how the shields work, because the name is somewhat ambiguous. Because there are no transporters in Star Wars, we have to actually analyze the technology somewhat to see how it would react to the attack.

I had no idea anyone would take the Star Trek vs. Star Wars issue so seriously. Before I saw Wong's site, I had no idea people had really cotemplated the issue in any detail.
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Post by Ryushikaze »

... Everything under the sun, and come to think of it, the sun too, sometimes, messes up transporters, and you're not sure Shields, standard ECM, Wash radiation, the ISD hulls themselves, to say absolutely nothing of the feddy ship being shot to bits won't make mass beam tactics unlikely.

How about you ask him for any time they've ever done a mass beam on unwilling targets. Then watch him flounder.
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Post by Ryushikaze »

Ghetto Addendum: In a non ship, no transporter pad scenario.
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Post by Batman »

MOTS wrote::
Okay, so why don't they just fire at the ventilation shaft whilst lateral to the Death Star, instead of going into the trench.
Because on account of a lot of Death Star being in the way? I think he means from directly above in which case every Valendamned gun on that hemisphere of the DS has a line of fire on your forces. Brilliant move.
Also, it is sort of important how the shields work, because the name is somewhat ambiguous. Because there are no transporters in Star Wars, we have to actually analyze the technology somewhat to see how it would react to the attack.
Squeeze me? Trek shields: Block matter, energy, and transporters (which are blocked by a fuckton of other phenomena, many of them natural)
Wars shields: block matter, energy, seriously weaken FTL comm signals. They're fundamentally different fron Trek shields (other than the power issue) enough that they (unlike lots of rock, EM radiation, and tons of other things) won't?
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Post by Darth Servo »

I think the guy is getting particularly frustrated as he pulled the "who would take this so seriously" excuse to avoid admitting he's getting his ass kicked, inspite of the three long essays he's written on the subject in emails to complete strangers. As such, he'll probably quit the debate soon so we might not have any more entertainment from him. Unless he's as fanatical as Darkstar.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I like the way he uses words like "analyze" when he hasn't the first clue how this is done.
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