So many words, so little intelligence ...

[Bromma_Herman]

Thanks for reminding me to send him a link to Trek Miss 2 Twisted Evil

I might also remind you of THIS
Like you say, during a firefigth, there is no garantue to hit your target, for Redshirts and Stormtroopers Alike, so dont tell me that Redshirts are worse shot than Stormtroopers. It all comes down to troop quality, and while Stormtroopers are military soldiers, the red shirts are not. Stormtroopers has training and weapons for offensive actions while all the red shirts weapons are built for self defence.

[Vympel]

I might also remind you of THIS

No one claims that blasters have "perfect accuracy".

It all comes down to troop quality, and while Stormtroopers are military soldiers, the red shirts are not. Stormtroopers has training and weapons for offensive actions while all the red shirts weapons are built for self defence.

What? Starfleet personnel are called on to fight the Federation's wars. That's simply a fact. They are military personnel.

[Bromma_Herman]

Yes, they are military personel, but not trained for offensive actions, a flaw that is not reparied until after the Dominion War.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, they are military personel, but not trained for offensive actions, a flaw that is not reparied until after the Dominion War.

How does that change the fact that their performance is clearly inferior?

[Ted C]

I had no idea anyone would take the Star Trek vs. Star Wars issue so seriously. Before I saw Wong's site, I had no idea people had really cotemplated the issue in any detail.

Please do point out that he obviously takes the subject seriously enough to keep arguing, so he's just as vested in the outcome as you are.

I take fencing and dancing seriously, too; that doesn't change the fact that they're hobbies.

[Darth Wong]

Anyone who writes multiple long arguments about the subject and then suddenly pretends he doesn't care about it when he starts to get his ass kicked is so laughably transparent that he won't even convince his own mother of his sincerity.

The difference between me and him isn't that I take it more seriously; it's that I know what the fuck I'm doing.

[Darth Servo]

I like the way he uses words like "analyze" when he hasn't the first clue how this is done.

He clearly thinks it means "assume transporters will work through SW shields and then base life-or-death decisions on said groundless assumption"

[Darth Servo]

Thanks for reminding me to send him a link to Trek Miss 2 Twisted Evil

I might also remind you of THIS
Like you say, during a firefigth, there is no garantue to hit your target, for Redshirts and Stormtroopers Alike, so dont tell me that Redshirts are worse shot than Stormtroopers. It all comes down to troop quality, and while Stormtroopers are military soldiers, the red shirts are not. Stormtroopers has training and weapons for offensive actions while all the red shirts weapons are built for self defence.

At least the Stormtroopers had a REASON for not hitting the main characters in SW. In ANH, Vader wanted Leia and company to escape from the DS1 so they could be traced back to the rebel base. In TESB, Vader wanted Leia and Lando to rescue Luke so he could be tractored on board the Executor with the hyperdrive-deactivated Falcon. In ROTJ, the Imperial troops were ordered to take prisoners alive, along with a bunch of other factors favoring the rebel-ewok attack.

Whats the redshirt's excuse?

[Bromma_Herman]

Look, im not trying to say the redshirt is better then the stormtrooper, but I merley pointing out the differences between them.

The comparioson between the redshirt and the stormtrooper is like comparing a crewmen of an Iowa class battleship to a Marine.

[DoctorPhanan]

At least the Stormtroopers had a REASON for not hitting the main characters in SW. In ANH, Vader wanted Leia and company to escape from the DS1 so they could be traced back to the rebel base. In TESB, Vader wanted Leia and Lando to rescue Luke so he could be tractored on board the Executor with the hyperdrive-deactivated Falcon. In ROTJ, the Imperial troops were ordered to take prisoners alive, along with a bunch of other factors favoring the rebel-ewok attack.

Whats the redshirt's excuse?

Obviously its the internal conflict that goes through all Federation citizens when they take up arms against another living creature . Its a philosophical handicap, since the Federation obviously trains it's cadets to use the "infallible phaser" with exceptional accuracy.

[Ghost Rider]

Look, im not trying to say the redshirt is better then the stormtrooper, but I merley pointing out the differences between them.

The comparioson between the redshirt and the stormtrooper is like comparing a crewmen of an Iowa class battleship to a Marine.

Strange that in the Dominion War the redshirts were also on bases stationed on planets, and not just stationed on ships.

So in reality of the show? They were the ground forces, and they failed horribly to actually even compare to the worst of a any realistic army.

[Darth Wong]

Look, im not trying to say the redshirt is better then the stormtrooper, but I merley pointing out the differences between them.

The comparioson between the redshirt and the stormtrooper is like comparing a crewmen of an Iowa class battleship to a Marine.

Strange that in the Dominion War the redshirts were also on bases stationed on planets, and not just stationed on ships.

So in reality of the show? They were the ground forces, and they failed horribly to actually even compare to the worst of a any realistic army.

I've heard this particular Trekkie bullshit argument before. "The Federation has a real ground army, with soldiers and armoured vehicles and artillery and everything, but we just don't see it!" An absence of evidence is not proof of absence, but it is logical reason to put the burden of proof on the other party.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Look, im not trying to say the redshirt is better then the stormtrooper, but I merley pointing out the differences between them.

The comparioson between the redshirt and the stormtrooper is like comparing a crewmen of an Iowa class battleship to a Marine.

Actually a better analogy would be a member of the Sea Orgs with a tazer (Redshirt) versus a US Marine (Stormtrooper).

[Darth Servo]

Look, im not trying to say the redshirt is better then the stormtrooper, but I merley pointing out the differences between them.

The comparioson between the redshirt and the stormtrooper is like comparing a crewmen of an Iowa class battleship to a Marine.

Then you shouldn't have brought up alleged stormtrooper poor performance as a point against redshirt poor performance. And you still failed to answer the point about the Stormtroopers being ORDERED to miss while red shirts have no excuse. Besides, how often do the crewman of an Iowa class battleship have to deal with boarding actions?

[PayBack]

Probably never.. not just because they don't fight like that any more but als because AFAIK Iowa class battleships include contingents of marines for security etc... which is why it's so surprising Fed ships don't.

[Elheru Aran]

Probably never.. not just because they don't fight like that any more but als because AFAIK Iowa class battleships include contingents of marines for security etc... which is why it's so surprising Fed ships don't.

In Enterprise they have MACO's, but those aren't utilized too often, and I imagine they're supposed to depict the more militarized Earth Starfleet before they all got together into the UFP and became ZOMG! CIVILIZED! hence the lack of professional military detachments upon the ships. Despite how much sense that would actually make by having actual soldiers on board to handle security and on-board combat...

[Isolder74]

Probably never.. not just because they don't fight like that any more but als because AFAIK Iowa class battleships include contingents of marines for security etc... which is why it's so surprising Fed ships don't.

In Enterprise they have MACO's, but those aren't utilized too often, and I imagine they're supposed to depict the more militarized Earth Starfleet before they all got together into the UFP and became ZOMG! CIVILIZED! hence the lack of professional military detachments upon the ships. Despite how much sense that would actually make by having actual soldiers on board to handle security and on-board combat...

I guess the United States in not civilized because we assign Marines to be guards on board our military vessels. I guess it all comes down to what's your definition of civilized. Under a Federation system, civilized means that we trust everyone out there enought to fly around unarmed.

[Darth Servo]

I guess the United States in not civilized because we assign Marines to be guards on board our military vessels. I guess it all comes down to what's your definition of civilized. Under a Federation system, civilized means that we trust everyone out there enought to fly around unarmed.

Of COURSE the US isn´t civilized. A big part of Q´s initial speech and Picard´s reaction in ¨Encounter at Farpoint¨was intended to protray cold war US as barbaric. That we´re capitalists like the Ferengi proves it.

[I hate trekkies]

My first post here, and I have decided to come in with a bang.

1) his first point about the death star being inaccurate, erm what part did he not understand about the deathstar not being designed to take on star fighters, those turrets are anti capital ship weapons only, and forgive me in thinking that there is a slight size difference between a federation ship and a x-wing. plus the empire have ships to take on fast moving targets i.e. the lancer frigate. One more point what the films don’t show is that a lot of laser cannons are droid operated. See “the new rebellion”.
2) Federation has the advantage on the ground? Ok so what about the E-web repeating blaster or a thermal detonator? And personally I would love to see a Starfleet officer to go up against an AT-AT with his precious little phaser.
3) Transporters? Ok well lets see how well they work when the empire just jams those signals. And we know it can be done because its happened if star trek episode. “say we can’t transport because theres too much interference. If that fails just blow up the transporter its self.
4) So what about nog (spelling?) in DS9 he had to have a cybernetic replacement. And I think he ignores how effective droid surgeons are, a few small precise incisions and dunk in bacta and the solider is on duty in 2 days max. plus on this point he is relying on the fact that the federation are manging to injury every imperial there is
5) Biological warfare? Ok so what about lord vader getting one of his apprentices Hethirir to unleash a bioweapon on his own people as test of loyalty. And was it not the reason why prince xisor hated vader because a research lab funded by vader had an accident which unleased a bio weapon, forcing the local imperial officer to sterilise the area? So from this we know the empire is more than happy to unleash a bioweapon. And even I don’t think that the federation is stupid enough to develop a bio weapon that could harm humans. Because the outcome would go like this. “sir we did it every imperial personal has been affected with an un-stoppable nano virus”. “excellent number one, just one thing? Why is that ensign coughing up blood”?
6) Sabotaging imperial ships? Ok firstly they would have to catch up with, 2ndly once the empire found out about cloaks each ship would be outfitted with a crystal grav array. Also imperial shields are different that federation so There is a good chance transporters will not work. Plus even if a sabotage gets aboard all key areas of the ship will be defended. I wonder how a Starfleet officer would fair against a darktrooper.
7) All the races uniting against the empire? One as we all know the startrek universe has many rivals which the empire would use to play one race off with another to great affect. Plus how would they communicate with those on the other side of the galaxy?
It also seems that this guy thinks the federation has enough ships to take on the empire with. Where upon as we all know the empire has 200,000 stardestroyers alone in service. And as we know one stardestroyer is worth at least 20 enterprises.
9) And finally after the first few hours of invasion Starfleet would have no vessels because the empire has more than enough ships to send a fleet to every federation outpost at once. As one the empire would drop numerous fleets out of hyperspace at every key Starfleet target.
10) Before any attack was made the empire would surely infiltrate the federation and Starfleet, causing discord among them, thus weakening their effectiveness to respond to the imperial threat.
11) All in all I think this guy severely underestimates the power of the empire. He thinks the federation has powers it does not have. And in all honesty he is totally deluded if he thinks the federation would stand any chance at all against the might of the galactic empire.

Thanks for reading, and may the emperors’ blessing go with you.
Matt

[Solauren]

I smell a Troll with that name....

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The words 'dead', 'flogging', and 'horse' come to mind... I also doubt the original guy has anything left, saying he doesn't really care about the debate is a sure sign he's 'on the ropes' at the very least.

[Darth Servo]

I smell a Troll with that name....

Not a troll. Just a newbie trying to score points.

As for the original trektard, I'll email him in a few days seeing if he wants to post the rest of his devastating argument. His last monster essay was just the first part of his new "analysis" after all. Perhaps I should have waited to see the rest of his wankfest before blowing the hell out of it.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Whilst you have announced you are new, proper capitalization is encouraged, and by that I mean demanded.

1) his first point about the death star being inaccurate, erm what part did he not understand about the deathstar not being designed to take on star fighters, those turrets are anti capital ship weapons only, and forgive me in thinking that there is a slight size difference between a federation ship and a x-wing. plus the empire have ships to take on fast moving targets i.e. the lancer frigate. One more point what the films don’t show is that a lot of laser cannons are droid operated. See “the new rebellion”.

This has already beeen discussed numerous times. Droids can be fooled and I'd much rather have computer assisted human gunners, as I'm sure they do use.

2) Federation has the advantage on the ground? Ok so what about the E-web repeating blaster or a thermal detonator? And personally I would love to see a Starfleet officer to go up against an AT-AT with his precious little phaser.

Nice start, but Starfleet does have a Heavy Machine Gun-esque weapon, although why they're too moronic to use it in a proper fashion, only Trekkies know.

3) Transporters? Ok well lets see how well they work when the empire just jams those signals. And we know it can be done because its happened if star trek episode. “say we can’t transport because theres too much interference. If that fails just blow up the transporter its self.

There's no contention about whether or not trasnporters will work through shielding, it wont.

4) So what about nog (spelling?) in DS9 he had to have a cybernetic replacement. And I think he ignores how effective droid surgeons are, a few small precise incisions and dunk in bacta and the solider is on duty in 2 days max. plus on this point he is relying on the fact that the federation are manging to injury every imperial there is

Good, here's where you make your first actual argument, though in the last sentence I think you meant to type, "injure every imperial".

5) Biological warfare? Ok so what about lord vader getting one of his apprentices Hethirir to unleash a bioweapon on his own people as test of loyalty. And was it not the reason why prince xisor hated vader because a research lab funded by vader had an accident which unleased a bio weapon, forcing the local imperial officer to sterilise the area? So from this we know the empire is more than happy to unleash a bioweapon. And even I don’t think that the federation is stupid enough to develop a bio weapon that could harm humans. Because the outcome would go like this. “sir we did it every imperial personal has been affected with an un-stoppable nano virus”. “excellent number one, just one thing? Why is that ensign coughing up blood”?

You forgot the Confederacy biological weapon that would kill every Jango Clone specifically, as well as the weapon that killed a Gungan Colony, and what happened to the Noghri homeworld.

6) Sabotaging imperial ships? Ok firstly they would have to catch up with, 2ndly once the empire found out about cloaks each ship would be outfitted with a crystal grav array. Also imperial shields are different that federation so There is a good chance transporters will not work. Plus even if a sabotage gets aboard all key areas of the ship will be defended. I wonder how a Starfleet officer would fair against a darktrooper.

Again, there is no way in hell transporters could work against any fully functioning ship with shields. Again, while Darktroopers are seen in Battlefront I/II and Galactic Battlegrounds/Clone Campaigns, the prototypes and production blueprints were destroyed with the destruction of the Arc Hammer.

7) All the races uniting against the empire? One as we all know the startrek universe has many rivals which the empire would use to play one race off with another to great affect. Plus how would they communicate with those on the other side of the galaxy?

The Empire doesn't need to play the various ST factions against one another, hell every faction in the Alpha Quadrant could band together and still be totally obliterated by a squadron of Z-95 Headhunters.

8) It also seems that this guy thinks the federation has enough ships to take on the empire with. Where upon as we all know the empire has 200,000 stardestroyers alone in service. And as we know one stardestroyer is worth at least 20 enterprises.

Much more than that, someone gave me the yield of a Photorp and I compared it against the shielding of an Acclamator-class Assault Transport, it'd take a simulataneous hit of about a quarter of a million Photon Torpedos take out an Acclamators shielding for one second, IIRC.

10) Before any attack was made the empire would surely infiltrate the federation and Starfleet, causing discord among them, thus weakening their effectiveness to respond to the imperial threat.

Waste of time and resources, the manpower would be better spent in TIE Fighters or manning positions on Cap Ships.

11) All in all I think this guy severely underestimates the power of the empire. He thinks the federation has powers it does not have. And in all honesty he is totally deluded if he thinks the federation would stand any chance at all against the might of the galactic empire.

You will find this true for many treckies.

[Ghost Rider]

One, if you're going to disassemble someone's posts, do it correctly and two, don't play Mod. That is also frowned upon.

[Batman]

Nice start, but Starfleet does have a Heavy Machine Gun-esque weapon, although why they're too moronic to use it in a proper fashion, only Trekkies know.

Don't tell me you're talking about the phaser on the dune buggy in Nemesis. HMG? You gotta be kidding me.

6)Sabotaging imperial ships? Ok firstly they would have to catch up with, 2ndly once the empire found out about cloaks each ship would be outfitted with a crystal grav array

Which, as we know, are all over the place. Oh wait they weren't. In fact the NR knew about exactly TWO in Imperial posession in TLC.

hell every faction in the Alpha Quadrant could band together and still be totally obliterated by a squadron of Z-95 Headhunters.

Nice Wars wanking there. A single squadron of Headhunters would be hard-pressed to take out a single Galaxy class without torpedoes leave alone the entire UFP or all of the Alpha quadrant.
Wars has one hell of a firepower advantage but lets not go overboard.