Viscount stats unveiled; SSD mess resolved

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-22 12:57pm

Thank Palpatine for that not working in ROTJ.

Provide proof that Palpatine wanted the Executor to not fire upon the fleet.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-10-22 12:59pm

Yeah, the order from Palpatine for the capital ships to hold their fire (only broken when Lando and Ackbar brought the Alliance fleet into insanely close range) has to be taken into account.

If it wasn't for that, the Executor (and the other Imperial ships) would have begun to open fire right from the outset ("It's a trap!"). The Rebel fleet would have been completely annihilated before barely even having the chance to raise the temperature of the Executor's shield energy sinks a couple degrees.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-10-22 01:00pm

VT-16 wrote:
Thank Palpatine for that not working in ROTJ.
Provide proof that Palpatine wanted the Executor to not fire upon the fleet.

The fact that the fleet was ordered not to engage the Rebels per a statement by Piet early in the battle. Or the fact that the Executor didn't use its 5,000 HTLs to slag every Rebel ship in the fleet. Come on man, the Executor itself outgunned the entire Rebel fleet. It could have selectively picked off one Rebel ship at a time effectively killing each ship in under 30 seconds. Getting shot at by 64 HTLs is one thing. Getting shot at by 1,500 HTLs is another all together.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-10-22 01:07pm

VT-16 wrote:Provide proof that Palpatine wanted the Executor to not fire upon the fleet.

Wasn't there a specific scene where Lando says, "only the fighters are engaging, I wonder what those Star Destroyers are waiting for", followed by a scene where Admiral Piett (was it?) tells another officer that the Emperor has something special planned.. that the Imperial fleet is only to keep the Rebels from escaping.

Or does this not constitute the proof?

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-22 01:46pm

Vympel wrote:
Fighters took out the shields. There are 2 seconds from the time Ackbar gives his order to when the structure explodes and one more second for the office to inform Piett that they lost their bridge deflector shields.
Obviously then, two seconds must've actually passed in the battle

I watched the ROTJ last night. I watched the scenes involved in this thread. The way it is cut, the best way I could see to reconcile time passage for the space battle was that each subsequent scene occured directly after the preceeding scene. If you think that time passage happend differently, or if any one else does,I am listening.

OT:ITW/CLSW: Executor was bombarded by the Rebel fleet to knock down it's shields, not just two A-Wings.

RotJ novel: Executor was under attack before the order to concentrate all fire was even given.

Well, I didn't think anyone thought that the Executor wasn't being attacked until Ackbar orderd them too. I also didn't say A-wings destroyed the Executor all by themeselves. What I did say was, based on the movie, which is completely different from the novel, the A-wings took down the bridge shields and an A-wing ultimatley brought the Executor "down".

havokeff wrote: On the shields still being up... Why couldn't they have destroyed the structures when the shields were still up? In ROTS we clearly see Anakin destroy a shield generator while the "shields are still up".

What the fuck are you talking about? Obi-Wan was referring to the shield over the hangar, not the shields in general. Real useful shields they'd be, they're up but they can't stop fighter lasers where the Droid Control Ship could effortlessly shrug off proton torpedo salvos

In any event, the CLSW indicates that the shields protecting the hangar shield generator were down.
I'm totally drawing a blank on the "CLSW". I didn't know that the shields for the ship or the one protecting the hanger were already down. Those were the shields that I was talking about. Point concieded.

Also, only one globe was destroyed by the A-wings and the straffing run was cleary done before the Officer announced that they had lost the bridge deflector.
So fucking what? RotJ novelization:

"Forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet, sir."

"Concentrate your fire on their power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them."
The Rebel fleet plan was to knock out their shields so the fighters might stand a chance. I never thought someone here would be so inane to seriously subscribe to that A-Wing bullshit
The first quote was aimed at Aleyska just to correct what he said. He said the the A-wings destroyed both globes and that their straffing run was after the shields were down. They are only showed destroying one globe and that happened before the bridge deflector shields were down. Just a statement of fact.

And as for what the novel says, the part you quoted, isn't it always the plan to knock out an opponents shields and then disable or destroy them.

Also these events can be reconciled with what we see on screen, so I am all for them.

Again, I did not say that the A-wings single handedly destroyed the Executor. Based on the movie which overides the novels IIRC, two A-wings fire the last shot shown before the bridge deflector goes down and an
A-wing crashes into the bridge which causes the Executor to crash into the DS. These are facts, whether any of us like them or not.
And even in the novel, which I quoted, it is still ultimatley A-wings that fire the killing shot. Although it does say Green Wing fire it's torpedos.

In any event, in general, we don't know how much time actually passed in between Ackbar's order and shield failure, and Executor obviously was not fighting hard- we can thank the battle's generally shitty capital ship battle effects for that, we don't see it firing on any enemy ships in long range shots of the entire ship whatsoever. Don't really know why, it just didn't. In any event, the effect of the death of the Emperor as related in the RotJ novel probably had something to do with it, just as it did with the disorganized fighter response to Rebel fighter attack on the Death Star.

In addition, not every Rebel ship has to be in LOS (range is not an issue) to do damage- the heat sinks would still be "filled up" from fire from other quarters.

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not. It was Aleyskas point that not all the rebel ships were in range. I merely said that they were in visual range and that is even in range with our current technology.

And who cares if the Executor was fighting to its maximum effectiveness or not. Did it have it shields at half power or something? Did the Emperor's pressence give the Imperial shields a +20?

P.S. Sorry for the slow responses. I'm at work and actually have to help customers today. So I can't slack as usual

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-22 01:47pm

Cykeisme wrote:
VT-16 wrote:Provide proof that Palpatine wanted the Executor to not fire upon the fleet.
Wasn't there a specific scene where Lando says, "only the fighters are engaging, I wonder what those Star Destroyers are waiting for", followed by a scene where Admiral Piett (was it?) tells another officer that the Emperor has something special planned.. that the Imperial fleet is only to keep the Rebels from escaping.

Or does this not constitute the proof?

Yes that is exactly the case. Movie and Novelization.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-10-22 02:00pm

About flawed designs.

The HO-class also has an exterior bridge tower. Just as earlier Republic and CIS vessels!

So trying to say "Imperials suck at warship construction" is meaningless.

There must be a reason for outer bridge towers!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-10-22 02:05pm

Alyeska wrote:A fluke, maybe. Except thanks to the EU we have two more SSDs being taken down by relatively minor forces.

The Lusankya defeat and what else?

Aggressor was pounded by a torpedo sphere and took it out by ramming
Terror was lost wehn the facility it was docked to went up after it had been gutted by sabotage and a fighter flying inside it
Vengence was pounded by several cruisers and bombers before being rammed by 3 dreadnaughts and a CR90 after haveing been deprived of supplies for weeks.
Razor's Kiss was sabotaged before hand and self destructed
Iron Fist was bombarded by the entire Hapan Fleet
Knight Hammer was winning until sabotage blew up its engines and it fell into Yavin
Reaper was beaten in a duel with the Lusankya, and acquitted itself so well they considered scrapping the Lusankya
Guardian defeated an unknown force only to be surrendered by its XO later
Intimidator never saw combat and was left a derelict
Lusankya was stripped of its weapons and sent on a suicide run
Defiant is still cruising
Guardian is still cruising
Whelm has never had its story told.

That's all 12 of them. The first Lusankya defeat I'll agree was not good, but the combat physics part covers that. The Executor you agree was a fluke. Where is the other horrific defeat?

And actualy, you do design warships to combat fireships. You combat them by blasting them before they get into range. Thank Palpatine for that not working in ROTJ.

Not a chance. You can't target RHIBs. You defend against them by deploying your own RHIBs as escorts.

What did both the Lysankya and Executor lack? Escorts.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-10-22 02:33pm

So those thousands of guns are just for show eh? Can't shoot at the enemy themselves it seems.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-22 02:36pm

that the Imperial fleet is only to keep the Rebels from escaping.

And what exactly are they going to do if the Rebels try to make a run for it? Try to cover the surrounding space with their mass? Ask nicely to stay put?

I can't believe I'm hearing the same kind of Hodge-like "it's possible that... it can also be read another way..." kind of argument on this site. Provide evidence that the fleet were ordered to not fire on the escaping Rebel fleet or admit that you're not making sense.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-22 02:37pm

nightmare wrote:
havokeff wrote:On the shields still being up... Why couldn't they have destroyed the structures when the shields were still up? In ROTS we clearly see Anakin destroy a shield generator while the "shields are still up".
Just look at the facts, here's a few examples: *SNIP*

I conceeded the point on this to Vympel already.

ROTJ - Death Star 2 is invulnerable to any attack until Han Solos team brings down the shield. Regular ISDs prove invulnerable to fighter attacks, or for that matter, fighters crashing into them. The much larger Executor has no visible damage whatsoever until the rebel fleet concentrates firepower on it. Note that we don't know how long it took them to do so due to cutscenes. In fact, the script notes that the rebels already began to fire on it before Ackbar's order:

"The battle between the Rebel and Imperial fleet
rages on. Several cruisers fire at the giant Super Star
Destroyer.

127 INT REBEL STAR CRUISER - BRIDGE 127

ACKBAR
We've got to give those fighters more time.
Concentrate all fire on that Super Star
Destroyer."

After the Executor loses bridge shields, A-Wings attack the conn dome and destroys it with salvos of concussion missiles (armor penetrating nuclear warheads of some type). An A-Wing, undetermined if it was by kamikaze or accident, strikes the bridge window, which is an incredibly small target compared to the rest of the Executor. The bridge shatters, the crew is killed. The A-Wings missile load goes off and sets off a chain reaction that causes much internal damage. Within seconds, the engines misfire and propels the Executor into DS2 were it is destroyed before the secondary bridge can do anything about it.

Quite simply, there's no reason to believe that the Executor was any less protected than the ISDs which suffered no damage from fighters. Script: "The damaged Y-wing plummets toward the Star Destroyer, and
crashes into the control tower, exploding."

I am under the assumption that the script and novel are always overriden by the movies if the movies show things one way and the script or novel shows it another. If that is indeed the case, then the A-wings destroy the globe BEFORE the Officers says that the bridge deflector shields are down. If it is not the case let me know.

havokeff wrote:Also, only one globe was destroyed by the A-wings and the straffing run was cleary done before the Officer announced that they had lost the bridge deflector.
The fact that only one dome was destroyed should make it obvious that its destrutction had nothing to do with the bridge shields going down. Beause, y'know, there was still one undamaged one.

How does that make it obvious?
The A-wing fires at the structure. A massive exploasion occurs and the structure is destroyed. The direct next scene is the interior of the bridge that is shaking from an explosion. The Officer then says "Sir! We've lost our bridge deflector shields." Not "Sir! We lost our bridge deflector shields a few minutes ago and I am just now informing you." What is obvious is that one event led to another. I'm not saying it was the only event, just the last event in a line of them.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-10-22 02:38pm

VT-16 wrote:
that the Imperial fleet is only to keep the Rebels from escaping.
And what exactly are they going to do if the Rebels try to make a run for it? Try to cover the surrounding space with their mass? Ask nicely to stay put?

Then please explain why the Rebel fleet wasn't destroyed by the superior Imperial force. If they were allowed to engage at will, the Rebels would have been destroyed.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-10-22 02:40pm

What you failed to consider havokeff is that the shields could have been taken out moments before the A-Wings made their attack and the A-Wings were in position waiting for such an oppurtunity. It takes time to report shields are taken down.

Now, I see you changed your tune. First you claim the A-Wings downed the shields. Now you merely claim the A-Wings fired final shot after the fleet did the bulk of the work.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-10-22 02:43pm

In the section on the Executor in the ITW:ROTJ it says that the Executor carries over 5,000 turbolasers and ion cannons, so the Executor carries at least 5,000 guns. However there is no indication that all those guns are heavy weapons so saying that an SSD is equal to 78 ISD-IIs is overstating things if we truly want to compare we should count all the guns on an ISD which is about 220 for all the guns on an ISD-I which dividing 5,000 by 220 equals ~23 ISD-Is so that would mean that the Rebel fleet is about 66% the strength of the Executor. Also, the 1,000 recusants is how many it theoretically takes to reliably destroy a Mandator-II. The other times SSDs got punked was in the X-wing novels one where massive capship missile bombardments were able to allow another poorly fought SSD to be attacked until it surrendered in decent enough condition it could be repaired, and the Iron Fist which was sabotaged and again wasn't destroyed merely fled to be repaired in a short amount of time. Actually, the Executor is the only explicit example of a fully-crewed SSD being destroyed. In fact considering that the Rebels need to come up with novel one-shot wonder tactics, instead of straight up battle, to defeat SSDs says something for the excellence of the Executor's design.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-22 02:54pm

please explain why the Rebel fleet wasn't destroyed

1) Admiral Ackbar didn't freak until the DS II joined in.
2) The Mon Cal cruisers didn't go up like matches just because they went one-on-one with ISDs. Unlike what most Eu seems to think, they did seem on par with them in the battle.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-10-22 02:55pm

VT-16 wrote:
please explain why the Rebel fleet wasn't destroyed
1) Admiral Ackbar didn't freak until the DS II joined in.
2) The Mon Cal cruisers didn't go up like matches just because they went one-on-one with ISDs. Unlike what most Eu seems to think, they did seem on par with them in the battle.

So you don't actualy have an argument.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-10-22 03:02pm

Alyeska wrote:So those thousands of guns are just for show eh? Can't shoot at the enemy themselves it seems.

I was speaking as to real life. We both know the ships at Endor were orderd to hold fire. I'm not certain how well the heavies would have done against the fireships, but it is irrelevent in this case. And we also both know that heavy guns are crap against missiles, hence point defense, of which we know nothing about when it comes to star dreadnoughts.

So we are back to physics and tactics rather then a design flaw. Unless this 3rd example of yours shows differently. Now what time is that?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-10-22 03:04pm

Alyeska wrote:What you failed to consider havokeff is that the shields could have been taken out moments before the A-Wings made their attack and the A-Wings were in position waiting for such an oppurtunity. It takes time to report shields are taken down.

Now, I see you changed your tune. First you claim the A-Wings downed the shields. Now you merely claim the A-Wings fired final shot after the fleet did the bulk of the work.

I don't want to touch havokeff's argument, but the latter is what happened. the generators and projectors are under the shields and thus protected by them.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-10-22 03:07pm

Alyeska wrote:
VT-16 wrote:
please explain why the Rebel fleet wasn't destroyed
1) Admiral Ackbar didn't freak until the DS II joined in.
2) The Mon Cal cruisers didn't go up like matches just because they went one-on-one with ISDs. Unlike what most Eu seems to think, they did seem on par with them in the battle.
So you don't actualy have an argument.

His first one might have been nothing, but you haven't done to refute his second one.

Nor have you done anything to what Ender said.

So are you going to refute that Executor was taken down by something they weren't wholly prepared for that late in a battle? Literally you're saying "The Executor should've never been taken down by the Rebel Force!"

Why do you say this unless you have significant evidence that can justify this. If such, present it and everyone would shut up. If not, you're blowing a shitload of hot air.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-22 03:38pm

Alyeska wrote:What you failed to consider havokeff is that the shields could have been taken out moments before the A-Wings made their attack and the A-Wings were in position waiting for such an oppurtunity. It takes time to report shields are taken down.

Now, I see you changed your tune. First you claim the A-Wings downed the shields. Now you merely claim the A-Wings fired final shot after the fleet did the bulk of the work.

First, why would it take time to report that shields are down? Show me an example where the shields on a sci fi ship go down in battle and it isn't immedietly known.

And as for changing my tune...

havokeff wrote:"You keep throwing out all the ginormous numbers for the Executor... Both DSs had even larger numbers and were taken out by a single fighter and a fighter and a smugglers freighter, respectively. Based on that, why is it so difficult to accept that an entire fleet concentrating it's fire on a ship, coupled with a lucky suicide run to take out it's command crew, would work and work quickly?"

"Seriously though, You can imagine all you want, but that isn't what happened. Fighters helped take out the shields and a fighter took out the bridge and as for the situations being dissimilar... On the DS an x-wing flew down a trench besiged by fighters and turbolasers, fired off the killing shot and destroyed the DS. Above the Executor, an A-wing flew the length of the ship between massive structures besiged by fighters and turbolasers and delivered itself as the killing blow which destroyed the ship. Aside from the survivability of the pilot, it's not all that dissimilar..."

"Fighters took out the shields. There are 2 seconds from the time Ackbar gives his order to when the structure explodes and one more second for the office to inform Piett that they lost their bridge deflector shields."

"I'd like to believe that ships were already engaging the Executor and that Ackbar's order just turned every gun on it. Maybe even, the shields were already weakend. Non of that is shown anywhere on screen though. What is shown is three A-Wings destroying the Executor."

"Well, I didn't think anyone thought that the Executor wasn't being attacked until Ackbar orderd them too. I also didn't say A-wings destroyed the Executor all by themeselves. What I did say was, based on the movie, which is completely different from the novel, the A-wings took down the bridge shields and an A-wing ultimatley brought the Executor "down"."

"Again, I did not say that the A-wings single handedly destroyed the Executor. Based on the movie which overides the novels IIRC, two A-wings fire the last shot shown before the bridge deflector goes down and an A-wing crashes into the bridge which causes the Executor to crash into the DS. These are facts, whether any of us like them or not.
And even in the novel, which I quoted, it is still ultimatley A-wings that fire the killing shot. Although it does say Green Wing fire it's torpedos."

"How does that make it obvious?
The A-wing fires at the structure. A massive exploasion occurs and the structure is destroyed. The direct next scene is the interior of the bridge that is shaking from an explosion. The Officer then says "Sir! We've lost our bridge deflector shields." Not "Sir! We lost our bridge deflector shields a few minutes ago and I am just now informing you." What is obvious is that one event led to another. I'm not saying it was the only event, just the last event in a line of them."

With the exception of the third one, which is what I am sure you will focus on, my tune has been the same the whole time.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-10-22 03:42pm

Alyeska wrote:
VT-16 wrote:
please explain why the Rebel fleet wasn't destroyed
1) Admiral Ackbar didn't freak until the DS II joined in.
2) The Mon Cal cruisers didn't go up like matches just because they went one-on-one with ISDs. Unlike what most Eu seems to think, they did seem on par with them in the battle.
So you don't actualy have an argument.

What, at a bare mininum; three starcruisers and ten stardestroyer sized vessels don't match one dreadnaught? Maybe, maybe not....but with the circumstances that dictated the battle of Endor, it just might.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-22 03:52pm

NRS Guardian wrote:In the section on the Executor in the ITW:ROTJ it says that the Executor carries over 5,000 turbolasers and ion cannons, so the Executor carries at least 5,000 guns. However there is no indication that all those guns are heavy weapons so saying that an SSD is equal to 78 ISD-IIs is overstating things if we truly want to compare we should count all the guns on an ISD which is about 220 for all the guns on an ISD-I which dividing 5,000 by 220 equals ~23 ISD-Is so that would mean that the Rebel fleet is about 66% the strength of the Executor. Also, the 1,000 recusants is how many it theoretically takes to reliably destroy a Mandator-II. The other times SSDs got punked was in the X-wing novels one where massive capship missile bombardments were able to allow another poorly fought SSD to be attacked until it surrendered in decent enough condition it could be repaired, and the Iron Fist which was sabotaged and again wasn't destroyed merely fled to be repaired in a short amount of time. Actually, the Executor is the only explicit example of a fully-crewed SSD being destroyed. In fact considering that the Rebels need to come up with novel one-shot wonder tactics, instead of straight up battle, to defeat SSDs says something for the excellence of the Executor's design.

Adding to that, like Jim Raynor said, the only reason the executor was a loss was because of its proximity to the DS, otherwise, aux bridges would have taken control.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-10-22 07:02pm

havokeff wrote:I conceeded the point on this to Vympel already.

I was hoping I could shed some additional light on it.

havokeff wrote:I am under the assumption that the script and novel are always overriden by the movies if the movies show things one way and the script or novel shows it another. If that is indeed the case, then the A-wings destroy the globe BEFORE the Officers says that the bridge deflector shields are down. If it is not the case let me know.

In order for the officer to confirm the bridge shields are lost, the shields have to be down before he reports it. There's also nothing in the movie that says that individual rebel ships weren't already firing on the Executor before Ackbar's order for all ships to concentrate fire on her.

havokeff wrote:How does that make it obvious?

Because if one assumes that the A-Wing strafe took out a bridge shield generator while the shields were still up, there's still another one in pristine condition next to it the whole time. It is, in short, not possible.

havokeff wrote:The A-wing fires at the structure. A massive exploasion occurs and the structure is destroyed. The direct next scene is the interior of the bridge that is shaking from an explosion. The Officer then says "Sir! We've lost our bridge deflector shields." Not "Sir! We lost our bridge deflector shields a few minutes ago and I am just now informing you." What is obvious is that one event led to another. I'm not saying it was the only event, just the last event in a line of them.

A few seconds delay for the officer to report is quite sufficient even if we assume no delays in the cutscenes. As I've already mentioned, the destroyed structure is irrelevant to the bridge shields since there's TWO of them, and the other one is clearly undamaged even as the Executor dives into DS2. Conclusion: the A-Wing strafe had no relevance in taking down the Executor's shields, and the chain of events line up perfectly.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-10-23 01:56am

Its also quite psosible the Rebels were employing a greater degree of missile fire than the Imperials may have expected (much like the Separatists in ROTS.. get close and pelt them with projectiles/warheads.)

Also note the "fire ship" ramming/self destruct tactic was not really employed until they'd closed to point blank range (and purpose-designed ram ships generally are incorporated with heavier armor and shielding, as well as more powerful engines, to make them deadlier rammers as well as make them harder to destroy.) Add to the fact they're in orbit (meaning they can use repuslors to add to their ramming speed) and the tactic at point-blank range becomes more viable, (point blank range also hampers heavy turrets more than light or medium ones, so this might limit the firepower some ships can bring to bear.) Especially with the Emperor's commands hampering the efforts of the Navy in this battle.

There's also Nial Delcann and the Emperor's death screwing things up at the last second (That happens after the Emperor dies, I believe.)

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-10-23 02:44am

Cykeisme wrote:Also, I have another possibility to raise.
As we know, shields are, in many ways, volumetric effects. Perhaps the bridge is protected by both the "bridge deflector shield" and the primary shields that cover the entire topside. In effect, the command center mounts an additional shield system due to its added importance.

This would serve two purposes: firstly, heavy concentrated enemy capital ship fire with a high power may not be entirely dissipated by the primary ship shields, so any energy that seeps through is absorbed into the sinks of the smaller secondary bridge shield system.

Secondly, these localized shield systems may provide protection against attacks coming from extremely close to the hull, such as attacks from fighters. Protection from the wide-area primary shields may be less effective against these threats.

To reiterate a point I made earlier. The reason back-up shield projectors are an advantage on ships with similar or less power generation than their opponents could be that they can be quickly turned on during momentary shield failures. The Executor's bridge shields could be a sort of limited back-up to protect the most exposed and arguably vital part of the ship from leakages and momentary failures.