"Thou shalt not kill" or "murder?"

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2002-12-26 01:24pm

My fundie co-worker also denies that the Ten Commandments forbid "killing", just "murder." Is this true? I've seen it written both ways, but which is more accurate? Is it just a matter of translation?

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2002-12-26 03:43pm

does it matter?

typical fundie hypocracy.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2002-12-26 04:35pm

Personally, I think is a matter of translation, but I noticed on inumerous threads around here, when someone talks about murder, the fundies take it as being equivalent to homicide.
For example, when someone mentions God as a mass murderer, they imediately attack the sentence, by saying that God can't murder, because God is not a human being, hence it can't kill another person... Typical fundie reasoning.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-26 05:18pm

Galvatron wrote:My fundie co-worker also denies that the Ten Commandments forbid "killing", just "murder." Is this true? I've seen it written both ways, but which is more accurate? Is it just a matter of translation?

"Murder" is supposed to be the more accurate translation since it's clear that not only were the Hebrew killing their food they also killed a lot of non-Hebrews, mostly in war but they were definately killing them.

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2002-12-26 05:38pm

Warspite wrote:Personally, I think is a matter of translation, but I noticed on inumerous threads around here, when someone talks about murder, the fundies take it as being equivalent to homicide.
For example, when someone mentions God as a mass murderer, they imediately attack the sentence, by saying that God can't murder, because God is not a human being, hence it can't kill another person... Typical fundie reasoning.

*agrees fully*

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-12-26 06:14pm

I think fundies prefer "murder" over "killing" because of differences between the words. "Thou shalt not kill" would imply kill no one under any circumstances. "Thou shalt not murder" would imply kill no one unless it is legal or God says so.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2002-12-26 06:29pm

But, 'murder' is unlawful killing. There can't be a law forbidding murder as there has to be a law to define what murder is.
'You shalt not murder' is bloody obvious 'Thou shalt not kill' actually defines what constitutes a murder.

I had a long debate once with a fundy who insisted Christians had a moral obligation to carry out capital punishment - and it wasn't murder 'coz it was legal.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-26 06:35pm

Well the OT does dish out DPs, even for children, for rather frivilous reasons, like adultery, mocking a hero and being a stubborn son. So I would say that advocating the Capital punishment would indeed be the Christian thing to do.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-26 06:43pm

No, Sirius, it would be the Jewish thing to do.

Ahem:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and many other pacifistic messages delievered by Jesus.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2002-12-26 06:46pm

HemlockGrey wrote:No, Sirius, it would be the Jewish thing to do.

Ahem:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and many other pacifistic messages delievered by Jesus.

But this delightful little fundy insisted I was taking it out of context. <sigh>

One of my oldest and dearest friends is a CofE fundy (mostly harmless), and I had her on my side for once in a moral debate, so I know this guy was tlaking bullshit.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-12-26 06:48pm

Just as a reference (Source: New College Edition, American Heritage Dictionary)

kill: 1. To put to death

murder: 1. The unlawful killing of one human being

I'd say "Thou shall not murder" sound more consistent, as I assume that God ordering it somehow makes it lawful.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2002-12-26 06:52pm

innerbrat wrote: But this delightful little fundy insisted I was taking it out of context. <sigh>

Funny thing is, usually that's the first thing they say... How can one take murder out of context? Bad aim? The wrong type of kill (or murder)?

Sheesh!

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2002-12-26 06:53pm

But passing a law against unlawful killing is a circular argument, n'est pas?

The Apologist · Post by **The Apologist** » 2002-12-26 08:16pm

Are you really so dense as to assume that the Ten Commandments were engraved in English?

Otherwise, English dictionary definitions do not apply.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2002-12-26 08:22pm

The Apologist wrote:Are you really so dense as to assume that the Ten Commandments were engraved in English?

Otherwise, English dictionary definitions do not apply.

Ah, so you're saying that they pulled those commandments out of their asses like the rest of the bible? You're not making sense, whack-a-loon.

The Apologist · Post by **The Apologist** » 2002-12-26 09:17pm

Brilliant inference, aerius!

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-12-26 09:22pm

Oh the english equivalent still applies. We're not rewriting the commandment, just putting it in terms that we can understand.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2002-12-26 09:25pm

The Apologist wrote:Brilliant inference, aerius!

Admitting that you have a problem is the first step towards a cure. Keep taking your Vitamin Q and you'll be fine.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-27 08:19am

HemlockGrey wrote:No, Sirius, it would be the Jewish thing to do.

Ahem:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and many other pacifistic messages delievered by Jesus.

Yes, pasifistic messages delivired by Jesus...Hmmm...let see:
~ Matthew 10:34-35, so according to his own words he did not come send peace, but a sword.
~ Matthew 10:14-15, so cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will suffer a faith worse then Sodom and Gomorrah.
~ Mark 6:11, the same as above.
~ Mark 7:9-13, so here we have Jesus criticizing Jews for not killing disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. Yeap, this guy surely is against the DP.
~ Luke 12:51, so Jesus did not come to Earth to give peace.
~ Luke 10:10-15, so entire cities will be destroyed and their inhabitants "be thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his deciples.
~ John 15:6, so men that do not "abide" in Jesus will be cast in fire and burned.

Oh, what a pasifist Jesus was.

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"Thou shalt not kill" or "murder?"

"Thou shalt not kill" or "murder?"

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