What the HELL is with the tech inconsistency?!

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2002-12-26 12:55pm

I am dead serious: How is it possible that almost all mainstream science fiction(such as Star Wars, Star Trek, Andromeda, Babylon 5, etc.) have transportation and weapons technology FAR beyond what we have, but some significant parts of their other tech is not particularly advanced?

For example, why is it that in Star Wars(which supposedly has had interstellar travel(either sublight or superluminal) for over half a million years) is still using button pushing and normal sensor guages for their equipment? I mean, come on, surely in all that time they could have developed a high level of machine-man interface, to the point where the pilot's nerve system and the fighter craft can connect so that the man can fly the fighter craft as if it were his own body! Same thing goes for the bridge in Star Wars; they use button pushing too, when they could use MMI.

In Star Trek, how is it that the Borg never came across a species with either high level genetic engineering capabilities or advanced cloning? These would eliminate the need to assimilate species; the borg could simply grow super-drones.

In SW, why can't they build decent robot soldiers with highly capable mechanical bodies and capable robot minds(or failing that, copy and transfer normal soldier minds into stronger, longer lasting, and capable robot bodies)? This would result in MAJOR shipboard and energy savings, as it would completely eliminate the need for any form of life support, and the normal soldiers could be compactly stored.

Also, is it seriously possible that NONE of the spacefaring civilizations in mainstream Science fiction do any kind of genetic engineering on their peoples for any reason other than warfare?

The most probable reason for all of this is the need to meet budget restraints in these shows, but SERIOUSLY! It is possible for civilizations to take different courses in tech, but I dont think it possible for their side techs such as computers and genetics to be so primitive while other aspects of their tech are so advanced.

These are only a few inconsistencies

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-26 01:07pm

There's supposed to have been significant genetic engineering of humans in the Andromeda universe. The Nietzcheans, the fish people, heavy gravity worlders (Hunt's 1/2 HGW), Becka is supposed to have supedup reflexes so she can be a better pilot. None of these examples were genetically engineered solely for reasons of warfare.

Your comments about SW got me to thinking why don't they have really superior droids that are remote piloted by humans. Obviously they have excellent linking capabilites if they can hook a whole army up to one control ship. Doing the remote link bit would give them all kinds of advantages.

The main disadvantage would be if the remote pilots were centrally located or if their control link could be easilly jammed.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2002-12-26 01:12pm

Well, a button is still a reliable piece of hardware... Why have a more complicated and expensive system, if the same result can be achieved by the press of s simple button?

Anyway, I want only to pick on the subject of genetics...
I think we don't see genetic enginnering for other purposes than war, either due to the writer's lack of imagination of the possibilities of gene-engineering, or to avoid the normal "social problems" with gene-engineering.
The only time I recall a sci-fi society tinkering with gene-eng. as a social "fashion", is the Empire in the game Frontier: Elite by David Braben, the Empire allows genetic manipulation (one of the many dissentions with the Federation), and one may make any type of alteration, if he/she can afford it.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-26 01:27pm

You forget that not only are there budget constraints there is also the fact that these people are all looking into the future, and any look into the future is skewed by current perceptions, morals, and philosophies, and the fact that ALL new technologies are almost equal to magic, beyond the imagination of most writers. Some writers(better writers IMHO), include JMS in this, try to use real physics in their programs or books. In B5 no one called beams lasers, they were particle beams, which are visible, lasers are not. And all the tech was forseeable, almost current, organic tech, fusion and gravetics, still unreachable but visible, the ideas made sense and had realism to them.
Star Wars, Star Trek, Andromeda; they are all more fantastic and magical because they do not use good physics. People like these because they are well written(mostly) and are travels into the fantastic.
Someone I know describes Sci-Fi as the industrial supernatural, things we don't have and may never have.
Star Wars was pure literature, it had Zero basis in reality, it was pure industrial fantasy.
Doctor Who,Star Trek and Andromeda try to make believe that they are believable by using sciencey words. But then you end up with quotes like this:
"Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow!" The Doctor
Because the writers are not scientists.
Babylon 5, 2001, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress: these try to craft a tale around pretty good physics. The technology is all believable and possible or is just barely out of the ordinary. They all end up with good stories and believable ones at that.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2002-12-26 02:02pm

hey

the first guy said that there is considerable genetic manipulation in the Andromeda Universe on humans, and you quoted the Nietchians(prob. misspelled) as an example. I thought the Nietchians were aliens;my mistake, I guess.

Also the fact that the authors of these "futures" or alternate realities are skewed by their present perceptions is no excuse for being one-sided in terms of tech. For example, in Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Charles Sheffield, you get the picture that tech all around has advanced considerably in the time that has elapsed-no matter if it is skewed by Sheffield's perceptions on the future.

I might have another "in-situ" explanation other than shortsided writers and budget restraints; many of the older civs have reached a sort of equilibriam, and science is only newly developed if it is necessary, rather than whenever. For example, the stranglehold the Federation Science Council has on research. what it does is attempt to guide Science and tech to what is politically and culturally desirable(although one would think at least enough genetics to cure all disease would be desirable).

As for "buttons being easier than MMI," I dispute that. The MMI would be faster. People "wired" into the controls of a star destroyer could pilot it and conduct scans much quicker than people who have to read sensors, then push buttons.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-26 02:08pm

Better tech levels doesn't nessassarily need fancier look.

Seriously look at the tech we use in the military...I mean it looks clunky but then again it's useful, who cares about style...plus being head plugged requires more automation than pressing a button.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-26 02:21pm

-Scene on an ISD-
"Shields up commander!"
"Uh sir, looks like one of the ensigns got peanut butter on the controls"
"WHAT?! Oh never mind!"
-Bridge is blown to smithereens-

MMI is far more efficient in that the admiral could be jacked into the ship and give orders to the entire fleet and still control the ship, given that no AI could be used to do the job itself. And MMI means that instead of pressing a button the order goes directly to the computer no mechanical or biological middle men like arms fingers and springs.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-26 02:25pm

Yes, looky bring up the bad and tout the benefits of a system which relies upon a much more complex system of eletrical impluses.

So in your case. The peanut butter is replaced by a glass of water and now the system and the OPERATOR is fried by hapless captain.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2002-12-26 02:25pm

Borg ships look clunky, they have shitty interfaces and hth weapons, and yet they kick ass to "coollie" non-Voyager Fed ships.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-12-26 04:01pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:-Scene on an ISD-
"Shields up commander!"
"Uh sir, looks like one of the ensigns got peanut butter on the controls"
"WHAT?! Oh never mind!"
-Bridge is blown to smithereens-

MMI is far more efficient in that the admiral could be jacked into the ship and give orders to the entire fleet and still control the ship, given that no AI could be used to do the job itself. And MMI means that instead of pressing a button the order goes directly to the computer no mechanical or biological middle men like arms fingers and springs.

I can see you've never worked with a microsoft product.

Once your done with your idiotic ideas, perhaps you should consider that an MMI, by definition, is a two way link. Perhaps you should consider that hacking(Or slicing, as it's called in Star Wars) allows you to get into a system. What do you suppose would happen if someone got loose on an MMI? I myself don't know. I know it wouldn't be what you could call pleasant. Not when such a system can send feedback.

Your moronic 'example' is, well, moronic. No military keeps peanut butter on the bridge, for one thing. An MMI opens up all sorts of interesting bits of trouble, which you blindly ignore, because you are one of the many, many idiots who sees a pretty tech in some book and instantly assumes it's perfect.

A button works. A joystick works. They are ergonomically superior to many other options. That, you idiot, is that matters. If it works and it can be used easily, there is no reason to use a more expensive system.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2002-12-26 04:02pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:-Scene on an ISD-
"Shields up commander!"
"Uh sir, looks like one of the ensigns got peanut butter on the controls"
"WHAT?! Oh never mind!"
-Bridge is blown to smithereens-

MMI is far more efficient in that the admiral could be jacked into the ship and give orders to the entire fleet and still control the ship, given that no AI could be used to do the job itself. And MMI means that instead of pressing a button the order goes directly to the computer no mechanical or biological middle men like arms fingers and springs.

I don't recall seeing Admiral Piett eating a ham sandwich on the bridge...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-26 04:52pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:For example, why is it that in Star Wars(which supposedly has had interstellar travel(either sublight or superluminal) for over half a million years) is still using button pushing and normal sensor guages for their equipment?

Exactly what is wrong with an efficient and effective control system outside of the fact that it doesn't "look" cool.

I mean, come on, surely in all that time they could have developed a high level of machine-man interface, to the point where the pilot's nerve system and the fighter craft can connect so that the man can fly the fighter craft as if it were his own body! Same thing goes for the bridge in Star Wars; they use button pushing too, when they could use MMI.

Why use MMI when this cheaper methos is effective? Besides, unless it is started when the person is young Brain interfaces tend to cause insanity in Wars.

In Star Trek, how is it that the Borg never came across a species with either high level genetic engineering capabilities or advanced cloning? These would eliminate the need to assimilate species; the borg could simply grow super-drones.

No it wouldn't, they'd still need to assimilate species to get technology.

In SW, why can't they build decent robot soldiers with highly capable mechanical bodies and capable robot minds(or failing that, copy and transfer normal soldier minds into stronger, longer lasting, and capable robot bodies)?

They do. They are called Darktrooper mk2, the SD series, the Tank Droid, and the Viper Automaton. But humans are still preferable for innovation, flexibility, reliability, and cost.

This would result in MAJOR shipboard and energy savings, as it would completely eliminate the need for any form of life support, and the normal soldiers could be compactly stored.

It would also result in an armed force that any advanced slicer could turn against them. They don't use robotic armies for a reason.

Also, is it seriously possible that NONE of the spacefaring civilizations in mainstream Science fiction do any kind of genetic engineering on their peoples for any reason other than warfare?

Arkanians in SW do it. Star Trek used to do it. Vorlons do it to others.

These are only a few inconsistencies

No, this is one big style over substance fallacy.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-12-26 05:05pm

thought the Nietchians were aliens;my mistake, I guess.

Homo Invictus I think, eliminated all hereditary malfunctions and diseases, superior physical and mental abilities..

oh, and spikes.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-26 05:35pm

Some writers(better writers IMHO), include JMS in this, try to use real physics in their programs or books. In B5 no one called beams lasers, they were particle beams[1], which are visible, lasers are not[2]. And all the tech was forseeable, almost current, organic tech[3], fusion and gravetics[4], still unreachable but visible, the ideas made sense and had realism to them.[5]

If JMS actuly seriusly tried to use real physics in B5 I must say that he failed miserably.
1. In which episode were B5 beam weapons referred to as particle beams?
2. True, but in B5 second season's first episode "Points of Departure" they us *showed* what was specifically called a laser being used as for communication. The laser WAS clearly visible in space, it even made a sound.
3. Organic technology is realisistic and makes sense?

Wasn't there a long discussion about this a while ago?
4. Gravitic technoly (weapons, shields Etc.) makes very little sense. Mike has something about this in his website.
5. No they didn't make sense and the realism of B5 is a bit over rated.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-12-26 05:38pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:For example, why is it that in Star Wars(which supposedly has had interstellar travel(either sublight or superluminal) for over half a million years) is still using button pushing and normal sensor guages for their equipment? I mean, come on, surely in all that time they could have developed a high level of machine-man interface, to the point where the pilot's nerve system and the fighter craft can connect so that the man can fly the fighter craft as if it were his own body! Same thing goes for the bridge in Star Wars; they use button pushing too, when they could use MMI.

Thats like saying why use a microwave, when you can throw in a nuclear reactor to radiate it. Is my example fanciful? Yes, but it has a point, why use something expensive, confusing, and even dangerous, when something simpler will do.

In Star Trek, how is it that the Borg never came across a species with either high level genetic engineering capabilities or advanced cloning? These would eliminate the need to assimilate species; the borg could simply grow super-drones.

Its possible they haven't. Simple as that.

In SW, why can't they build decent robot soldiers with highly capable mechanical bodies and capable robot minds(or failing that, copy and transfer normal soldier minds into stronger, longer lasting, and capable robot bodies)? This would result in MAJOR shipboard and energy savings, as it would completely eliminate the need for any form of life support, and the normal soldiers could be compactly stored.

It think the Dark Trooper, which a handful of destroyed a Rebel base, is a good example of powerful robot soldiers. SO the reason we see little wimp soldiers in TPM and AOTC is because they're cheap! Who knows how freakeshly expensive fileding an entire army of Dark Troopers would be to control the entiregalaxy. Also, hte droid army being manufactured in AOTC was obviously not anything so advanced that they would have trouble finding parts for them. Droids with Super AI, would probably require vast imports, and easily catch the eye of a ruling govt. who wouldn't want that army built (the Republic). Its bad for business.

Also, is it seriously possible that NONE of the spacefaring civilizations in mainstream Science fiction do any kind of genetic engineering on their peoples for any reason other than warfare?

In SW, the Khommites, the Arkanians, the Yakas, and the Ganks all have such advancments. But also getting such genetic enhancments would be either too expensive, or society frowns on genetic engineering.[/i]

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-26 05:43pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:hey

the first guy said that there is considerable genetic manipulation in the Andromeda Universe on humans, and you quoted the Nietchians(prob. misspelled) as an example. I thought the Nietchians were aliens;my mistake, I guess.

They are considered a sub-species of human now (Andromeda time frame both before and after the fall). Homo Sapiens Invictus but they are basically genetically engineered decendants of genetically engineered humans.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-26 06:16pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:For example, why is it that in Star Wars(which supposedly has had interstellar travel(either sublight or superluminal) for over half a million years)

Where did you get that figure?

is still using button pushing and normal sensor guages for their equipment?

Whats wrong with that? Simple, cheap and efficient.

I mean, come on, surely in all that time they could have developed a high level of machine-man interface, to the point where the pilot's nerve system and the fighter craft can connect so that the man can fly the fighter craft as if it were his own body! Same thing goes for the bridge in Star Wars; they use button pushing too, when they could use MMI.

1. SW does have neural interfaces, see Lobot for one example.
2. Your system is going to be very very complex and very expensive, and it's not certain to pay off with regards to efficency either, thats just assumed.

In SW, why can't they build decent robot soldiers with highly capable mechanical bodies and capable robot minds(or failing that, copy and transfer normal soldier minds into stronger, longer lasting, and capable robot bodies)? This would result in MAJOR shipboard and energy savings, as it would completely eliminate the need for any form of life support, and the normal soldiers could be compactly stored.

They can and do.
Decent robot soldiers: SBD's & YVH war-droids to mention two of them.

Why aren't they used exclusively, becase it'd be dangerous, they used to have completely sentient war-droids before, some of them went berserk and that was REALLY bad, they don't like doing that anymore.

As for mental transfering, which they have, even if it was just a copy, I couldn't comprehend a person insane enough to willingly go through such a procedure whilst being mentally stable enough to be trusted with a gun.

Also, is it seriously possible that NONE of the spacefaring civilizations in mainstream Science fiction do any kind of genetic engineering on their peoples for any reason other than warfare?

Social reasons most likely.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-26 06:22pm

This man has obviously never heard of StarCraft.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-12-26 06:30pm

On the topic of the direct Man/Machine Interface, something that has been alluded to in previous posts but not specifically addressed:

What happens to an ISD equipped with full MMI neural linkages when it gets hit by an ion cannon?

With an ordinary push-button ISD, the bridge crew simply steps away and the techs try to get things going again, after which the bridge crew gets back into action. Worst case, there might be a few Star Trek style exploding console incidents, but likely as not the consoles just short out and a tech has to replace a board or two.

With a full MMI ISD, the bridge crew are the exploding consoles. Any sensible tech would include cutouts to protect the operators, but even so, there are bound to be a few Scanners-style exploding brain incidents. Wiring one's brain directly into an electronic system subject to potentially catastrophic externally induced overloads just seems like an incredibly bad idea.

For that matter, what happens if the operator's Zen master concentration is broken and his mind wanders for a few seconds? Gunnery Officer Jenkins thinks about how big a jerk that admiral was, that admiral in the launch just passing through the fire arc of the turbolaser battery controlled by Jenkins. Jenkins fantasizes about how good it would feel to see that launch explode, his conditioned brain immediately provides the necessary command codes on a reflexive, practically subconscious level, and ...

Damaramu · Post by **Damaramu** » 2002-12-26 11:30pm

Just like what happened in MACROSS PLUS.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-12-26 11:32pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:For example, why is it that in Star Wars(which supposedly has had interstellar travel(either sublight or superluminal) for over half a million years) is still using button pushing and normal sensor guages for their equipment? I mean, come on, surely in all that time they could have developed a high level of machine-man interface, to the point where the pilot's nerve system and the fighter craft can connect so that the man can fly the fighter craft as if it were his own body! Same thing goes for the bridge in Star Wars; they use button pushing too, when they could use MMI.

Star Wars HAS MMI in some quarters. Lobot of Cloud City monitors everything happening on Bespin with his MMI.

GA Thrawn mentions borg implants that interface with a combat computer in "Heir To The Empire". But he also notes the changeoff; once those systems go down, you have blinking, confused fighting force that can't think on its own two feet.

Now in RL, this "button pushing" is PREFERRED over touch screens and the like. For example, I work for a transportation company. Every day, I have to keep track of the mileages of all the vans in the yard. I have to double-check the odometer when lazy ass drivers don't fill out their mileage sheets. Most odometers are the analog "counters" that roll up as the van moves. However, we have about five Chevy P.O.S. vans that have an LCD odometer, that can only be read when the key is on. MAJOR pain in the ass. Its alsoo fun to guess the mileage when these things take a shit and half the numbers don't show up.

In Star Trek, how is it that the Borg never came across a species with either high level genetic engineering capabilities or advanced cloning? These would eliminate the need to assimilate species; the borg could simply grow super-drones.

The Borg are a stupid concept to begin with. Biological engineering will always be superior to cyborgs.

In SW, why can't they build decent robot soldiers with highly capable mechanical bodies and capable robot minds

If you're referring to the battle droids on Naboo, you are proceeding from a flawed reference. The battle droids are the Wal-Mart special army that the Niemodians got at a great price. They don't sleep, eat, or refuse orders. And they fold up nice and neat to save space.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-26 11:36pm

Early 20th century predictions about the future were invariably, terribly wrong. They always predicted vast advancements in areas which did not take place, and failed to predict vast advancements which DID take place. Your bizarre assumption that every single aspect of modern technology must be excised for something to be realistically futuristic is just that: an assumption, and not a good one at that.

I won't even get into SyntaxVorlon's bizarre claim that the organic tech of B5 is "visible" and realistic ...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-26 11:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:I won't even get into SyntaxVorlon's bizarre claim that the organic tech of B5 is "visible" and realistic ...

Why? All you'd need to do is post a link since he obviously didn't read the site.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-27 12:59am

SyntaxVorlon wrote: Some writers(better writers IMHO), include JMS in this, try to use real physics in their programs or books. In B5 no one called beams lasers, they were particle beams, which are visible, lasers are not. And all the tech was forseeable, almost current, organic tech, fusion and gravetics, still unreachable but visible, the ideas made sense and had realism to them.

Mike may not be interested in commenting on this, but I will.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-27 01:00am

Ender wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I won't even get into SyntaxVorlon's bizarre claim that the organic tech of B5 is "visible" and realistic ...
Why? All you'd need to do is post a link since he obviously didn't read the site.

Because it would also require significant bludgeoning with an iron pipe to get the point across. No guarantee he'd survive the indoctrination.

At least, I'd make sure there isnt

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What the HELL is with the tech inconsistency?!

What the HELL is with the tech inconsistency?!

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