Marines versus Clones...Geonosis

[xiophen]

A blaster impact at 8MJ(which is a lowend) might not kill a SM but the force of the explosion on the ceramic(cheramics will react in that way) outer layer would probably knock him down and multiple shots might penetrate and do damage to the wearer and internal systems.

One shot to the chest from a clone rifle will kill a human even if he is wearing power armour. It will send him flying a few feet and cause blunt force trauma and KE transfer, which will shred his organs. Technically roman armour is bulletproof (most rounded bullets at any rate) however I would not enjoy testing that resistance, due to the reasons above) The SM's may have Genetically enhanced muscles and ligaments, but a double tap from a clone rifle on full will kill them.

Only question is considering how duable the systems own enhacned actuators are to the KE damage dealt? Sucks that GW choose not to over elaborate fluff with presice numbers.

As far as combat experinece anything short of a jedi is going to end up lacking considering that even raw recruit Sm in power armor have 20+ year of training and combat experince. when it comes to commanders well yoda is a young pup to most chapters commanders who unlike yoda have fought one war after another for arround 1k years

Bullshit. 1K is very very old for a SM[/quote]

Actually Dante has lead the blood angels for !.1k year fluff, Azreal doesn't have any solid age set. Magnus Calgar is 600, Logan is 900+. these are the fluff examples. check each Sm codex for said numbers *the 2nd ed actually gives better fluff for chracters* the average life expectancie I think was written in the the Angels of death codex as being arround 200 - 300 yeats in age again. the clones and everyone short of yoda has a fraction of the expeirence of a SM the biggest difference is that at this Point war is more a theory inSW that becoming a reality in 40k its been a constant for 10k years and said chapters have been fighting constantly for the entirety of those 10k years.

[Ghost Rider]

Xiophen...stare at this link for a while of why no one really is giving much care behind your 40k is superior because they are

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8951

[His Divine Shadow]

One shot to the chest from a clone rifle will kill a human even if he is wearing power armour. It will send him flying a few feet and cause blunt force trauma and KE transfer, which will shred his organs. Technically roman armour is bulletproof (most rounded bullets at any rate) however I would not enjoy testing that resistance, due to the reasons above) The SM's may have Genetically enhanced muscles and ligaments, but a double tap from a clone rifle on full will kill them.

White rabbit said they had interial dampeners and gyro's and stuff for that, SM power armor anyway.

[white_rabbit]

One shot to the chest from a clone rifle will kill a human even if he is wearing power armour. It will send him flying a few feet and cause blunt force trauma and KE transfer, which will shred his organs. Technically roman armour is bulletproof (most rounded bullets at any rate) however I would not enjoy testing that resistance, due to the reasons above) The SM's may have Genetically enhanced muscles and ligaments, but a double tap from a clone rifle on full will kill them.

White rabbit said they had interial dampeners and gyro's and stuff for that, SM power armor anyway.

Codex Angels of Death pg 16 IIRC..plus various other novel sources, Grey Hunter being one that comes to mind recently

[SWPIGWANG]

Deep strike + no shoot in CQB rule = dead clones

Anyway, don't we have all those Lasgun goes though masony like nothing quotes? At least we can derive calcs out of that, if only giving the SM scouts a value to play with.

[white_rabbit]

Deep strike + no shoot in CQB rule = dead clones

Anyway, don't we have all those Lasgun goes though masony like nothing quotes? At least we can derive calcs out of that, if only giving the SM scouts a value to play with.

Yes, but since we dont have the sizes of the stones, they are irrelevent.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Screaming, Ortiz trained his mounted [autocannon] on the World Eater and fired. He shot long at first, but corrected before the monster could turn. The creature didn't seem to feel the first hits. Ortiz clenched the trigger and streamed the heavy tracer fire at the red spectre. At last the figure shuddered, convulsed and then blew apart.

The weapon presented there is an autocannon, a weapon capable of destroying all but the most armored of tanks. The World Eaters are Chaos Space Marines, using antiquated Power Armor, similar to current Space Marine Power Armor.

Ortiz cursed. The World Eaters soaked up the sort of punishment that would kill a Leman Russ. He realised his ammo drum was almost empty...

A Leman Russ is the Imperium's premier Main Battle Tank.

...One was punctured dozens of times by lasgun fire and fell face down in the mire...The 'dead' World Eater lifted his horned skull out of the muck and half-raised his bolter. But that was all. Then a shrieking chainsword decapitated him.

Chaos Space Marines are very similar in terms of strength and toughness to normal Space Marines. Lasguns have been credited with "blasting through stone walls". While I don't know if that's true or not, said firepower would imply a lot of kinetic energy, and apparantly these Marines can take that kind of punishment and live to tell about it.

[His Divine Shadow]

No, thats not kinetic energy, thats thermal stress, just like with blasters, who also blew through stone walls and through armored doors, see pictures and clips already provided one page back.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

...But the needle had only punctured flesh, which was good. The force of it could have shattered the shin bone...As [the Dreadnought] burst into the clearing, all of the cacti around them spontaneously shed their needles in a blitz of venomous barbs. The fusillade rattled off the metal carapace and legs...

This passage describes a scout's inspection of a victim of the cactus needles. The needles, which are triggered by sound, had shot at a passing soldier and one hit him in the leg. Then it shows the effect of these needles on a Chaos Dreadnought, a mech-like thing that Space Marines also commonly employ. And as mentioned earlier, Chaos technology is very similar to Space Marine tech.

...What good would a lasgun be against that?

The dreadnought crunched into the clearing. Its left foot clinked against something in the dust. It bent to retrieve it.
Mkoll's lasgun.
The dreadnought raised it in its bionic claws, holding the gun up to its already ruptured frontal armour as if to sniff or taste it.
Mkoll started to run.
By his estimation, there were five seconds before the lasgun magazine overloaded as he had set it.

...

They found the dreadnought broken open in the blackened clearing. The overload had not killed it, but it had split its armour as the towering machine had strode forward. Poison darts had done the rest, puncturing and killing the now-vulnerable once-man inside.

A testament to how tough a dreadnought is.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

A thick ironwork seal surrounded a man-sized hatch closed with lever-latches and greased hydraulic hinges. The door and its frame were painted matt green with rust-proof paint, all except the clean steel inner rods of the extended hydraulics...

...

He put a point-blank las-round through each of the crosses, leaving round puncture holes with sharp metal edges.

This details a squad of soldiers gaining access to a refinery complex. They used some technobabble to locate the internal locking mechanisms of the hatch, and destroyed them with lasgun shots, which apparantly don't have much trouble going through solid steel.

Bude stumbled as a [las]round hit him in the top of the left shoulder and exited through his right hip. Caffran knew he was dead...

These Guardsman wear flak armor, roughly analagous to the blast vests used by the Rebels in ANH.

...Tremard, a second too late in ducking, flew backwards, his left arm gone in a shredded waste of flesh below the shoulder. He fell on his back, screaming and writhing. His lasgun, with his left hand still holding the grip, sat miraculously on the parapet where he had rested it.

Not only does this show us that lasguns can incinerate armor and flesh instantly, but also that they pack quite a punch. And Space Marines survive this stuff. Easily.

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh speaking of overloading weapons, here's a pistol overloading:
========================
Pg. 196: Almost inaudible in the cupboard the blasters' double whine scaled upward, an insectlike warning of an explosion that would certainly destroy most of the house.
========================
-Children of the Jedi

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Here are some blaster impacts for you to look upon:

<snip>

Has this been proven that that was caused by blasters? We never actually see the stormies on the other side shoot the door itself, that could have been accomplished by a fusion cutter or door-breaching explosives.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, it's two, but you get the jist.

[His Divine Shadow]

Has this been proven that that was caused by blasters? We never actually see the stormies on the other side shoot the door itself, that could have been accomplished by a fusion cutter or door-breaching explosives.

Whats to be proven? A blaster shot is heard and in the same instance the door explodes, this also fits with the other evidence thats been provided, plus visual evidence of blaster power.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Has this been proven that that was caused by blasters? We never actually see the stormies on the other side shoot the door itself, that could have been accomplished by a fusion cutter or door-breaching explosives.

Whats to be proven? A blaster shot is heard and in the same instance the door explodes, this also fits with the other evidence thats been provided, plus visual evidence of blaster power.

They could of used a blaster shot to detonate afore-mentioned explosives. Also, a solid chunk is blasted out of the door, whereas in the movie clip you posted the blaster shots blast many small fragments out of the impact points.

[His Divine Shadow]

This details a squad of soldiers gaining access to a refinery complex. They used some technobabble to locate the internal locking mechanisms of the hatch, and destroyed them with lasgun shots, which apparantly don't have much trouble going through solid steel.

Similar to:
========================
Pg. 132: Some desperate searching produced nothing, while an ominous pounding and hissing sounded from behind the frozen door. A small spot of white appeared in the center of the metal, then began to spread and smoke.
========================
Pg. 133: The hatch door behind them was now a molten white, and liquid metal was running steadily from its borders.
========================
-Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization

Blasters melting a blast door.

In TESB we also see blasters leaving fist sized holes in some unknown alloy, iow, the wall.

Clone rifles can also make .5m craters in ferrocrete walls, which is not bad.

Not only does this show us that lasguns can incinerate armor and flesh instantly, but also that they pack quite a punch. And Space Marines survive this stuff. Easily.

Similar to the blaster bolt that shredded the arm of a super battledroid in AOTC.
We also have stormies being thrown through the air due to blaster impacts, flying rather nicely, here we also have:
========================
Pg. 301: Madine was thrown backward into the metal wall as the killing beam burned through to his heart.
========================
-Darksaber

From a rather dimunitive pistol too, nothing like Han's DL-44.

Here is also something from a bog standard pistol, power level unknown though:
========================
Pg. 20: The blaster bolt that had killed Captain Sreas had scooped out a third of his upper chest, leaving behind a cauterized concavity into which the burned edges of the hole in his blouse were fused.
========================
-Tyrant's Test

[His Divine Shadow]

They could of used a blaster shot to detonate afore-mentioned explosives. Also, a solid chunk is blasted out of the door, whereas in the movie clip you posted the blaster shots blast many small fragments out of the impact points.

Thats being really obtuse of you, and also don't forget Occams razor either, that explanation is overly complicated, and useless since it fits anyhow with observed blaster effects.

It walks like a dog, sounds like a dog, looks like a dog, DNA tests confirm it's a dog, then it's a dog.

And no, it's not, look at ANH clip I provided, large solid chunks are blown out of walls there by Han's pistol.

Also:
========================
Pg. 193: The droid made an internal adjustment to regulate the potentcy of it laser beam. Less than a moment later the beam was at maximum intensity. The machine aimed the laser at the creature, enveloping it in a great flaming and smoking cloud. Seconds later the few remaining particles of the Wampa were swept away by the icy winds. The smoke disappeared, leaving no physical evidence -save for a large depression in the snow- that an Ice creature had ever been there.
========================
-Star Wars V: The Empire Strikes Back Novellization

Assuming the Wampa would weigh something like 200KG, a conservative estimate we have 110MJ for that weapon.

[His Divine Shadow]

Here, look:

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, the canon novellization has blasters melting blast doors with a couple of shots, taking out an elevator door is going to be a piece of cake.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

All right, I concede that a blaster is probably, on the whole, more powerful. However one must agree that a lasgun and blaster posess at least somewhat-similar amounts of KE punch.

[His Divine Shadow]

All right, I concede that a blaster is probably, on the whole, more powerful. However one must agree that a lasgun and blaster posess at least somewhat-similar amounts of KE punch.

I doubt either has much KE, the KE like effects are more probably the result of thermal stress from rapid vaporization on the impact point, wich causes an explosion and shockwave, that acts like a rocket engine so to speak.

[white_rabbit]

Not only does this show us that lasguns can incinerate armor and flesh instantly, but also that they pack quite a punch. And Space Marines survive this stuff. Easily.

And HDS should know this...I remember posting plenty of lasgun + bolter related injuries..

[white_rabbit]

Here, look:

Its very pretty.

whats the hole like after ?

You have some before and after pics of blaster impacts I think...??

[SWPIGWANG]

So can blaster beat a LASCANNON?

After all, those SM can hurl them around normally. 300mm steel penetration low end, with enough left over energy to destory a tank.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Well, to get back on topic, it has been demonstrated that Space Marines can survive the presented amount of thermal stress, fairly easily. However, we still do not have an accurate picture on what a bolter will do to a clonetrooper. Now, it has been stated (in a Zahn novel, IIRC) that stormtrooper armor is essentially "bulletproof", i.e., most slugs will not penetrate the armor. However, in RotJ, we see stormtroopers being incapacitated, if not killed, by arrows, bolas, and thrown rocks. If we put 2 and 2 together, this would imply that stormie armor, while good at deflecting projectiles, does not absorb impacts very well. I believe we can all agree that clonetroopers armor ~= stormtrooper armor.

It has been stated before that a bolter fires a .75 cal depleted uranium rocket, packed with explosives. This round will very likely not penetrate stormie armor, despite its high density. However, they do travel at very high speeds and detonate on impact. If a stormtrooper is downed by a rock or bola, he is certainly going to be knocked senseless by a high-velocity rocket, explosion not-with-standing.

I would get hard calcs from this stuff, but unfortunately I am taking physics next year (my junior year of high school), as much I'd like to have taken it earlier.