Viscount stats unveiled; SSD mess resolved

[vakundok]

"The battle between the Rebel and Imperial fleet
rages on. Several cruisers fire at the giant Super Star
Destroyer.

127 INT REBEL STAR CRUISER - BRIDGE 127

ACKBAR
We've got to give those fighters more time.
Concentrate all fire on that Super Star
Destroyer."

Off topic: Where is this quote from? I am just wondering because The Annotated Screenplays (1997) does not contain it and I am shocked to see that the written sources are not fully consistent.

INT. REBEL STAR CRUISER-BRIDGE
The battle between the Rebel and imperial fleets rages on.
ACKBAR: ...

[nightmare]

Off topic: Where is this quote from? I am just wondering because The Annotated Screenplays (1997) does not contain it and I am shocked to see that the written sources are not fully consistent.

http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/rotj-script.shtml

Different versions: http://starwars.rossiters.com/rotj_screenplays.html

[nightmare]

To reiterate a point I made earlier. The reason back-up shield projectors are an advantage on ships with similar or less power generation than their opponents could be that they can be quickly turned on during momentary shield failures.

The only source that details backup shields in this matter is WEG. If you lose a die of the shields, you can roll to replace it with one of your backup shield dies. In other words the same as what you say here.

[knightwire]

that the Imperial fleet is only to keep the Rebels from escaping.

And what exactly are they going to do if the Rebels try to make a run for it? Try to cover the surrounding space with their mass? Ask nicely to stay put?

I can't believe I'm hearing the same kind of Hodge-like "it's possible that... it can also be read another way..." kind of argument on this site. Provide evidence that the fleet were ordered to not fire on the escaping Rebel fleet or admit that you're not making sense.

Going to have to disagree with you on this one VT. The scenes:

LANDO
Only the fighters are attacking. I wonder
what those Star Destroyers are waiting for.

102 EXT SPACE - IMPERIAL FLEET 102

The giant Imperial Star Destroyer waits silently some distance
from the battle. The Emperor's huge Super Star Destroyer rests in
the middle of the fleet.

103 INT SUPER STAR DESTROYER - BRIDGE 103

Admiral Piett and two fleet commanders watch the battle at the
huge window of the Super Star Destroyer bridge.

COMMANDER
We're in attack position now, sir.

PIETT
Hold here.

COMMANDER
We're not going to attack?

PIETT
I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He
has something special planned for them. We
only need to keep them from escaping.

It's pretty clear that whatever 'keeping them from escaping' means, it certainly is clear that Admiral Piett has decided the Emperor's order does not mean attacking.

Lando confirms the Imperial Capital ships are not attacking as well as Admiral Piett. I'm not sure what else some needs as proof that, at least initally, the Imperials did not fully engage the Rebels.

The Executor held it's fire.[/i]

[VT-16]

It's pretty clear that whatever 'keeping them from escaping' means, it certainly is clear that Admiral Piett has decided the Emperor's order does not mean attacking.

That's not what I've been harping on all this time. Every single time this battle comes up, it seems people think the fleet had no orders to shoot no matter the circumstance, which we can plainly see in the film is not true.

If that was not the case, please word yourselves better, because it's been reading like people thought the Imperial fleet didn't do jack shit at any point in the battle, which is retarded.

[Connor MacLeod]

To reiterate a point I made earlier. The reason back-up shield projectors are an advantage on ships with similar or less power generation than their opponents could be that they can be quickly turned on during momentary shield failures.

The only source that details backup shields in this matter is WEG. If you lose a die of the shields, you can roll to replace it with one of your backup shield dies. In other words the same as what you say here.

There are oifficial mentions of backup shielding in other sources (STar Wars technical journal, the NEGV&V, etc.) And I can remember at least one short story from one of the anthologies (one of the tales stories that deals with the Rebels escaping from Coruscant post Thrawn and Pre Dark Empire.. the news courier the story was about had a backup shield generator in her ship.)

edit: Alot of ships in the Black fleet Crisis also had backup shields (The STar Destroyer they used as a target for the hypervelocity gun on that moon in BEfore the Storm had reserve shields, as did the Gunship destroyed by YEvethen Thrustships in Tyrant's Test.)

[Connor MacLeod]

[
That's not what I've been harping on all this time. Every single time this battle comes up, it seems people think the fleet had no orders to shoot no matter the circumstance, which we can plainly see in the film is not true.

If that was not the case, please word yourselves better, because it's been reading like people thought the Imperial fleet didn't do jack shit at any point in the battle, which is retarded.

Its also quite clear they were not using their maximum firepower as well as they could have (we see few if any massed braodsides or maximum-use firepower examples.) If they WERE using firepower at all, it was defensively (either to drive off/box in, or to cripple/disable.) They don't need to avoid firing any shots at all for the order to constrain or hamper them, the added level of complication to "damage/cripple without destroying" on a shielded target is problematic enough as it is, especially when the Rebels are under no compunction to hold back any.

To put it another way: They had orders to shoot back, but not to shoot to kill deliberately. There clearly WERE cases where Rebel ships were destroyed, but it is also equally clear that they weren't employing their full firepower. Ackbar made it claer in the novel and movie that the Imperials outgunned them drastically. And it is also rather clear that Piett's aide was not referring simply to firing on them when he says "attack", he means they're not going to "fight" them, as in try to destroy them. They were going to let the Death Star do that.

To put it bluntly - Palpatine didn't give a flying fuck about casualties in that situation, or the difficulties he imposed on his commanders with his orders. He only cared about having things done his way and in turning Luke to the Dark Side. To achieve his ends, anyything, even the Imperial fleet and troops he had present at Endor, were expendable. (EG, such as blowing up Endor with his own troops still on it. Or using himself and the DS2 as bait.)

As for "keeping them form escaping", aside from weapons fire, they can also make use of tractor beams to trap ships there (the Executor alone outmasses the Rebel fleet substantially, so I doubt they would be able to break free if it decided to capture them.)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm certain the crew of the Mon Cal vessel which was destroyed by the Communication vessel would like to argue that the Communication vessel was only using half strength.

As it is, there is nothing in the movies to explicitly suggest the fleet used half its firepower. If they did use half their firepower, where does the other half go to. If they were fighting defensively, won't most of that power go to the shields which would make them even harder nuts to crack?

More over, what's the bloody point of Battle meditation if they weren't fighting to win?

[VT-16]

he means they're not going to "fight" them, as in try to destroy them. They were going to let the Death Star do that.

Just to avoid further confusion - Do you believe that only happened at the beginning of the battle, or kept up when the fleet dived into the Imperials as well? Because I want to hear this explanation about how the Imperial fleet "held back" when attacked outright.

I just can't comprehend how someone can hear the line "We only need to keep them from escaping" and not get it as "If they try to make a run for it, they're toast". Ever since I was a little kid, I always thought they would destroy the Rebels if they tried to escape, not "keep them in place so the DS II could make every single kill."

[Vympel]

The whole thing about the Imperial fleet not attacking is kind of missing the point, really. They didn't attack, the Rebels attacked them, got in close, thus losing the initiative, battle started in earnest, the Emperor died, morale collapsed (Emperor died, Executor lost, DS2 blown up), they got defeated. Simple, really. There's evidence in the novel directly contradicting that they didn't even fire back, but they definitely were not put in a good position due to their orders. If they had attacked at the start, as Lando and Admiral Piett and his Captain all noted, the battle would've gone a lot differently.

[VT-16]

the Rebels attacked them, got in close, thus losing the initiative, battle started in earnest, the Emperor died, morale collapsed, they got defeated.

Exactly.

If they had attacked at the start, as Lando and Admiral Piett and his Captain all noted, the battle would've gone a lot differently.

The Rebels would definitely have suffered more losses then, but would they have lost? Without knowing the complete make-up or size of the Rebel fleet, or if any retcons have been done to bolster it with post-ROTJ-invented ship-types, I don't think there's much to go on. Even Ackbar's own grim predictions ("We won't last long against those Star Destroyers") didn't seem to have much effect.

[Vympel]

The Rebels would definitely have suffered more losses then, but would they have lost?

Definitely, IMO. Executor alone makes that a done deal.

Without knowing the complete make-up or size of the Rebel fleet, or if any retcons have been done to bolster it with post-ROTJ-invented ship-types

I don't think they had anything more impressive than Home One type Star Cruisers.

I don't think there's much to go on. Even Ackbar's own grim predictions ("We won't last long against those Star Destroyers") didn't seem to have much effect.

Well yeah, but that's because of the reasons already cited- more specifically, they wasted their own fighter assets in a futile unsupported attack, and let the Rebel fleet close and gain the initiative, when they should've gone to HTL broadside and bombarded them from long-range. Heck, Executor probably would've still won even if the bridge had been destroyed, had the DS2 not been there.

[VT-16]

Definitely, IMO. Executor alone makes that a done deal.

It can take on a fleet. The Rebel fleet is a fleet.

That's not really a steady comparison, because how do we know the Rebel fleet at Endor was at the strength the Executor could handle?

I don't think they had anything more impressive than Home One type Star Cruisers.

There were the Bulwark-class battlecruisers from SW:Rebellion. Unless they were all destroyed prior to Endor, they could have added greatly to their firepower. Even in the film, there's some large bolts being sent at the Imperials without a clear source. Would be easy to retcon. ;)

Heck, Executor probably would've still won even if the bridge had been destroyed, had the DS2 not been there.

True. Had it been deep space, things might have turned out differently.

[Vympel]

There were the Bulwark-class battlecruisers from SW:Rebellion. Unless they were all destroyed prior to Endor, they could have added greatly to their firepower. Even in the film, there's some large bolts being sent at the Imperials without a clear source. Would be easy to retcon.

Weren't the Bulwark from Rebellion was de-powered significantly.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bulwark- ... tlecruiser

Of course, without there being canon evidence that they were even there ...

[Ryushikaze]

Personally, I always interpreted the standing order as "Toy with, but do not obliterate." Mostly because I thought the emperor wanted the rebels to be alive when he succeeded in converting Luke so that their defeat would be that much more crushing. And yes, I'm assuming he'd broadcast the news for full demoralizing effect.

[VT-16]

Weren't the Bulwark from Rebellion was de-powered significantly.

Nope, check the article. Dan Wallace intentionally went from the larger vessel to the 1000 m long Mark. I model seen in the CW.

Of course, without there being canon evidence that they were even there ...

Since I've heard it said over and over again that all the ships in the entire Rebel fleet were at Endor and with the Bulwarks being kept as command ships far apart due to their rarity, there's more pointing towards them being there, in the fleet that "stretched further than the eye could see" than not.

[nightmare]

The only source that details backup shields in this matter is WEG. If you lose a die of the shields, you can roll to replace it with one of your backup shield dies. In other words the same as what you say here.

There are oifficial mentions of backup shielding in other sources (STar Wars technical journal, the NEGV&V, etc.) And I can remember at least one short story from one of the anthologies (one of the tales stories that deals with the Rebels escaping from Coruscant post Thrawn and Pre Dark Empire.. the news courier the story was about had a backup shield generator in her ship.)

Yes, but do they describe directly or indirectly how they function in any way?

EDIT: On a completely different note, it's really not strange that both the Executor and the DS2 were taken out in the movie. With either of those still functional, the Imperials couldn't possibly lose the battle. Which sort of defeats the purpose of the movie...

[Jim Raynor]

Weren't the Bulwark from Rebellion was de-powered significantly.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bulwark- ... tlecruiser

Supposedly, the author who came up with that has been quoted saying that he made the 1 km ships the Bulwark mark I on purpose, to make them distinct from the Rebellion ships (which, going by game mechanics, were quite powerful). I don't know where the quote comes from, or how canon it would be.

[VT-16]

Wallace made that comment on TFN's literature board, I believe.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Rebels would definitely have suffered more losses then, but would they have lost?

Definitely, IMO. Executor alone makes that a done deal.

Doubtful on my part. Han pooh-poohed the presence of the command ship and her two escorts. It follows that a General of the Alliance to Restore the Republic and a former commissioned officer in the Imperial Navy would know if that were credible. Saxton himself makes a comment on his website to the effect that the Alliance's fleet must've been prepared to victoriously engage the Executor and at least two escorts if Han's comments are to be credible and worth face-value.

[Isolder74]

The Rebels would definitely have suffered more losses then, but would they have lost?

Definitely, IMO. Executor alone makes that a done deal.

Doubtful on my part. Han pooh-poohed the presence of the command ship and her two escorts. It follows that a General of the Alliance to Restore the Republic and a former commissioned officer in the Imperial Navy would know if that were credible. Saxton himself makes a comment on his website to the effect that the Alliance's fleet must've been prepared to victoriously engage the Executor and at least two escorts if Han's comments are to be credible and worth face-value.

The fact that they brought along 3 Home One sized cruisers as part of the attack lends creadence to the idea that they had planned to at least deal with one Executor, if not the Executor, as part of the attack. Unless of course they were nieve enough to beleive that Vader would not have the ship nearby. Han did not see the ship's being there as a problem. He did seem to feel having Vader there might be a problem.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm tired of the wankers and morons that McEwok cultivates. At this point, someone should just take the quote:

The ship was colloquially known as a "Super Star Destroyer" because the Imperial Navy listed it as a "Super-class Star Destroyer" in budget requests to hide its true nature from the Imperial Senate. Even the ship's size was reported incorrectly to conceal its role from oversight committees. Although the official designation was changed by the time the Executor was operational, the phrase "Super Star Destroyer" stuck, and it was even applied to later vessels such as the Sovereign-class and Eclipse-class.

To SW.com's VIP's and say, "Wow! So you're telling us that 'Super-class Star Destroyer,' was never, actually, a class designation and that it was all just a clever ploy to defeat the bureaucracy which turned into a colloquial phrase?"

[nightmare]

The fact that they brought along 3 Home One sized cruisers as part of the attack lends creadence to the idea that they had planned to at least deal with one Executor, if not the Executor, as part of the attack. Unless of course they were nieve enough to beleive that Vader would not have the ship nearby. Han did not see the ship's being there as a problem. He did seem to feel having Vader there might be a problem.

The rebels didn't know Vader was present until Luke said it to Han, so they could not have expected the Executor. Nor did they expect the Imperial fleet.

Whatever they did expect is uncertain, but its possible they just showed up with what they could muster and hoped that the Emperor didn't bring more than a few ships with him. Han's commandos could, most likely, not warn the rebel fleet in the presence of the Executor and a few attending ISDs without blowing their cover, so the rebels probably never caught wind of Vader and strong Imperial presence until the Imperial fleet rounded Endor and the trap closed. Otherwise you'd think they wouldn't have been surprised when it happened.

[Stofsk]

The fact that they brought along 3 Home One sized cruisers as part of the attack lends creadence to the idea that they had planned to at least deal with one Executor, if not the Executor, as part of the attack. Unless of course they were nieve enough to beleive that Vader would not have the ship nearby. Han did not see the ship's being there as a problem. He did seem to feel having Vader there might be a problem.

The rebels didn't know Vader was present until Luke said it to Han, so they could not have expected the Executor. Nor did they expect the Imperial fleet.

Granted that they couldn't expect Vader, but Han's attitude to the Executor's presence shows he wasn't concerned about it. I think it's a plausible suggestion that Admiral Ackbar took in the possibility of contending with a fleet of Star Destroyers lead by a command ship.

Whatever they did expect is uncertain, but its possible they just showed up with what they could muster and hoped that the Emperor didn't bring more than a few ships with him. Han's commandos could, most likely, not warn the rebel fleet in the presence of the Executor and a few attending ISDs without blowing their cover, so the rebels probably never caught wind of Vader and strong Imperial presence until the Imperial fleet rounded Endor and the trap closed. Otherwise you'd think they wouldn't have been surprised when it happened.

The surprise comes from how the Imperials were expecting them. The DS2's guns were armed and operational, and the defending fleet was arrayed in a pincer movement.

I think any plan to attack the half-completed Emperor's White Elephant without considering a fleet of defenders is foolhardy. Han wasn't concerned that a command ship and several escorts were in orbit of Endor, which implies that some level of defence was expected.

[Stark]

Han's reaction is perhaps best taken in context: the plan was for the shield to be down by the time the fleet arrived, so that the attack on the DS2 could commence immediately. If it went 'according to plan', the Rebel operation would perhaps have taken five or ten minutes - long enough for the fighters to penetrate the defenceless DS2 and pop it while the fleet engaged any Imperial fleet nearby. With the shield up and DS2 armed, it was a different story.