Polish creationism

[Tolya]

I have been observing the spread of creationism in some countries and I have noticed, that Poland, in spite of having a big catholic community has managed to somehow avoid the topic of young earth.

Until now. There are some politicians in our government (typical piece-o-shit douchebags) who actively oppose the theory of evolution. The first one is Mr. Roman Giertych (leader of the LPR party - League of Polish Families) and the second one is...can you guess? - his father, Maciej Giertych (a professor of dendrology and genetics.)

He is a real funny guy - one of his beliefs is that dinosaurs and dragons lived on this earth together with humans. Where did he get this idea? From legends (like Marco Polo, who wrote that he saw the emperor of China riding in a chariot pulled by a dragon) and drawings of dinosaurs in caves. No, I am not kidding. During one lecture he also said something about mammooths dying of suffocation with a hard-on (this one is taken out of the context, but how can you preserve a stiff boner when you are dead?)

This guy actually published more than 200 essays on dendrology, of which about 18 is in the so called "Philadelphia List".

And hence my question: what is this Philadelphia List? I've read the obvious stuff - basically a tracking list of sort of scientifical magazines. But does anyone know whether is it something respectable or is it an another facade for YEC's? I've noticed that some of his works are published in a piece called Silvae Genetica (a journal based in Germany).

Apart from that, on 20th of October a group of ten scientists who are also priests (from universities of Cracow, Lublin and Szczecin) released a public announcement regarding the creationist theories. Can you guess what it was? I think not, because it made my jaw fall to the floor.

I won't paste the announcement here, because it's in polish, but I'll give the linky for the sake of proof.
http://miasta.gazeta.pl/lublin/1,48724,3696503.html

In short:

John Paul II said that the evolution theory DOES NOT stand in opposition to the christian theory of creation and efforts should be put into combining the science and faith in search of the truth.

So, basing on that, the said group of 10 priests publicly criticize the creation theory, as it is, according to them, based on the principles of antiscientifical fundamentalism.


I didn't really expect to see that.

[mr friendly guy]

I have been observing the spread of creationism in some countries and I have noticed, that Poland, in spite of having a big catholic community has managed to somehow avoid the topic of young earth.

This isn't necessarily surprising. Catholic higher ups tend to accept evolution and have made apologies to scientists they persecuted in the past such as Gallileo (albeit hundreds of years too late). So if the average Catholic follows the line of thought from the Pope, then yeah they wouldn't be creationists, but more theistic evolutionists. Fundies tend to be more from the Protestant denominations which are more biblical literalists. This is unsurprising if you consider the Protestant movement sprang up from Martin Luther who felt people didn't need the Pope to interpret God's will as it was all in the Bible.

He is a real funny guy - one of his beliefs is that dinosaurs and dragons lived on this earth together with humans. Where did he get this idea? From legends (like Marco Polo, who wrote that he saw the emperor of China riding in a chariot pulled by a dragon) and drawings of dinosaurs in caves. No, I am not kidding. During one lecture he also said something about mammooths dying of suffocation with a hard-on (this one is taken out of the context, but how can you preserve a stiff boner when you are dead?)

I suppose he would accept my "theory" that humans and elves lived together. Where did I get that idea. Why, from watching Lord of the Rings.

This guy actually published more than 200 essays on dendrology, of which about 18 is in the so called "Philadelphia List".

And hence my question: what is this Philadelphia List? I've read the obvious stuff - basically a tracking list of sort of scientifical magazines. But does anyone know whether is it something respectable or is it an another facade for YEC's? I've noticed that some of his works are published in a piece called Silvae Genetica (a journal based in Germany).

Since he is an expert on dendrology, presumably that includes dendrochronology. I don't know what the Philadelphia list is, however IIRC dendrochronology has already known ring patterns for the past 10000 years, which kills the YEC argument.

John Paul II said that the evolution theory DOES NOT stand in opposition to the christian theory of creation and efforts should be put into combining the science and faith in search of the truth.

So, basing on that, the said group of 10 priests publicly criticize the creation theory, as it is, according to them, based on the principles of antiscientifical fundamentalism.


I didn't really expect to see that.

Not that surprising actually. The Catholics do accept some scientific theories. They are still ridiculous backwards in terms of knowledge of HIV, stem cell research etc, however they do accept evolution (although there are some signs that the current pope may reverse John Paul II declaration).

I find this ironic because back in the days of the inquisition the Catholics did their damnest to suppress knowledge, while the Protestants actually helped it by wanting the Bible translated from latin into the native European languages.

[Ar-Adunakhor]

Since he is an expert on dendrology, presumably that includes dendrochronology. I don't know what the Philadelphia list is, however IIRC dendrochronology has already known ring patterns for the past 10000 years, which kills the YEC argument.

Everyone knows that God is only trying to trick you with those. It's a test of faith, you see.

What I really wonder is how much support are these Polish YECs getting? I was under the impression that the YEC movement was fairly well contained within the USA. To see it spreading is... unsettling.

[Frank Hipper]

Human stupidity, gullibility, and willful ignorance are worldwide.

I wish I'd saved the links to the "debates" over whether or not California should edit textbooks to appease a group of Hindu creationists last year or so, but it was so fringe I doubted it would have generated much interest, else I'd have posted it before...you see, not editing textbooks to include the truthful, 19 million year history of Hindu civilisation that excludes the Aryan invasion is bigotry, so went the claims.

[General Zod]

He is a real funny guy - one of his beliefs is that dinosaurs and dragons lived on this earth together with humans. Where did he get this idea? From legends (like Marco Polo, who wrote that he saw the emperor of China riding in a chariot pulled by a dragon) and drawings of dinosaurs in caves. No, I am not kidding. During one lecture he also said something about mammooths dying of suffocation with a hard-on (this one is taken out of the context, but how can you preserve a stiff boner when you are dead?)

Not so far fetched really. Though I'm not quite sure what it has to do with evolution and dinosaurs living amongst humans.

Link courtesy of Digg.com

You can have an erection once dead

A death erection (sometimes referred to as "angel lust") is a post-mortem erection which occurs when a male individual dies vertically or face-down – the cadaver remaining in this position. During life, the pumping of blood by the heart ensures a relatively even distribution around the blood vessels of the human body. Once this mechanism has ended, only the force of gravity acts upon the blood. As with any mass, the blood settles at the lowest point of the body and causes edema or swelling to occur; the discoloration caused by this is called lividity.
Sorry, no photo for this one!

[Tolya]

snip

Oh.

About the mamooth boner thingy - from what I remember he used this to prove that mamooths died from suffocation. To what end I don't know, because I have only some fragments of his speech.

What I really wonder is how much support are these Polish YECs getting? I was under the impression that the YEC movement was fairly well contained within the USA. To see it spreading is... unsettling.

Hmm, tough question really. Devout catholics in Poland are mostly a bunch of old ladies (we call them "Mohair Berets" because that's what they usually wear) who are too stupid to even grasp the idea of presenting something as a theory, so I doubt they would prove any good during any public debate. But they go to church and scream loud.

It's too early to say anything yet, although there were some occurences when some local school authority refused to hand an evolution poster in a class claiming that "it's only one of the theories and hanging such thing would be supporting it". So, obviously, some far fetched support, comes rather from simple ignorance than from being a fundamentalist believer in creationism. We'll see in a few weeks time, although I doubt that our right wing nationalist fundie catholics will be able to raise the subject to a public debate.

[Tolya]

crap, wrong BB Code. Sorry bout that.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Not that surprising actually. The Catholics do accept some scientific theories.

Do they truly accept scientific theories, or do they try to shoehorn them into their religion so they can make the claim that they're progressive and that science and religion need not conflict? It's definetly a good PR move, and no doubt they feel pretty good about being able to convince themselves thoroughly that this is actually possible.

[Tolya]

UPDATE:

I found an article in a newspaper dating from 1992, in which Maciej Giertych said:

"I will not argue whether the theory of evolution is real or not because I don't know anything about it. But scientists have the right for such discussions. After all the theory of evolution is just an idea, not a scientifical fact..."

Who the hell have him a scientifical degree?

[Darth Wong]

I love the way he admits he hasn't studied it at all, and then declares that it is not a fact. For the umpteenth time, evolution is both a fact and a theory. The fact of evolution is the observed phenomenon that an animal population's characteristics can change over successive generations. The theory of evolution is an attempt to explain why this happens.

[Tolya]

Wait, it gets better.

Actually, after Giertych's speech, the viceminister of Education Miroslaw Orzechowski said (sit down and take a deep breath before you read below)

*HEART & BRAIN DAMAGE WARNING*

"Darwinism was only a motivation for the unbelievers and a parascientific explanation to the others. Instead, we should look at an another concept which has survived 2000 years: creationism. Its a civilizational truth , which flows from faith. It has been repeated and unchallenged for years".

[Rye]

Oh lordy. That's so hideously stupid, ill-informed and dishonest, it could've only come from the gaping, fetid maw of a creationist. What, there wasn't a jewish creation myth prior to christianity now? How does he claim it's been unchallenged and yet attacks evolution? Why does he think faith based "civilisational truths" extend to paeleontology, archeology, history and biology?

And yet Poland can produce bands of Vader's quality. Madness.

[Mange]

Wait, it gets better.

Actually, after Giertych's speech, the viceminister of Education Miroslaw Orzechowski said (sit down and take a deep breath before you read below)

*HEART & BRAIN DAMAGE WARNING*

"Darwinism was only a motivation for the unbelievers and a parascientific explanation to the others. Instead, we should look at an another concept which has survived 2000 years: creationism. Its a civilizational truth , which flows from faith. It has been repeated and unchallenged for years".

I read that bullshit in the paper. "Civilizational truth, "repeated and unchallenged for years"... I'm at loss for word.

[Molyneux]

...does that sound any less stupid in Polish? I mean, in English 'scientifical' isn't a word, as far as I know. Is it an awkward translation of a Polish concept that cannot be easily expressed in this language, or is it just another case of idiot-making-up-words?

[Tolya]

UPDATE:
Posted in a polish weekly magazine:

In passenger's seat: Maciej Giertych
Driver's seat: his son, Roman Giertych.

The comment on the page's bottom:

"Thanks to the Dragon from Wawel, Maciej Giertych refuted the theory of evolution."



As a side note, the legend of the Dragon from Wawel (former royal castle located in Cracow, which is a former capital of Poland) is about a shoemaker who slayed the said dragon, who harassed the people from the city. Giertych used this as an argument to prove that dinosaurs lived together with people.