Richard Dawkins: Why There Almost Certainly Is No God

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Richard Dawkins: Why There Almost Certainly Is No God

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Awesome article written alongside the book.
(I'm quite tempted to buy the book now, he's an interesting fellow with an excellent presentation of whats too matter of fact to me to (normally) make want to buy a book on the subject)
Link wrote: America, founded in secularism as a beacon of eighteenth century enlightenment, is becoming the victim of religious politics, a circumstance that would have horrified the Founding Fathers. The political ascendancy today values embryonic cells over adult people. It obsesses about gay marriage, ahead of genuinely important issues that actually make a difference to the world.
It gains crucial electoral support from a religious constituency whose grip on reality is so tenuous that they expect to be 'raptured' up to heaven, leaving their clothes as empty as their minds.

More extreme specimens actually long for a world war, which they identify as the 'Armageddon' that is to presage the Second Coming. Sam Harris, in his new short book, Letter to a Christian Nation, hits the bull's-eye as usual:

placed by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver-lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen: the return of Christ . . .Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and ¬intellectual emergency. Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars? We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?

My scientific colleagues have additional reasons to declare emergency. Ignorant and absolutist attacks on stem cell research are just the tip of an iceberg. What we have here is nothing less than a global assault on rationality, and the Enlightenment values that inspired the founding of this first and greatest of secular republics. Science education - and hence the whole future of science in this country - is under threat. Temporarily beaten back in a Pennsylvania court, the 'breathtaking inanity' (Judge John Jones's immortal phrase) of 'intelligent design' continually flares up in local bush-fires. Dowsing them is a time-consuming but important responsibility, and scientists are finally being jolted out of their complacency. For years they quietly got on with their science, lamentably underestimating the creationists who, being neither competent nor interested in science, attended to the serious political business of subverting local school boards. Scientists, and intellectuals generally, are now waking up to the threat from the American Taliban.

Scientists divide into two schools of thought over the best tactics with which to face the threat. The Neville Chamberlain 'appeasement' school focuses on the battle for evolution. Consequently, its members identify fundamentalism as the enemy, and they bend over backwards to appease 'moderate' or 'sensible' religion (not a difficult task, for bishops and theologians despise fundamentalists as much as scientists do). Scientists of the Winston Churchill school, by contrast, see the fight for evolution as only one battle in a larger war: a looming war between supernaturalism on the one side and rationality on the other. For them, bishops and theologians belong with creationists in the supernatural camp, and are not to be appeased.

The Chamberlain school accuses Churchillians of rocking the boat to the point of muddying the waters. The philosopher of science Michael Ruse wrote:

We who love science must realize that the enemy of our enemies is our friend. Too often evolutionists spend time insulting would-be allies. This is especially true of secular evolutionists. Atheists spend more time running down sympathetic Christians than they do countering ¬creationists. When John Paul II wrote a letter endorsing Darwinism, Richard Dawkins's response was simply that the pope was a hypocrite, that he could not be genuine about science and that Dawkins himself simply preferred an honest fundamentalist. A recent article in the New York Times by Cornelia Dean quotes the astronomer Owen Gingerich as saying that, by simultaneously advocating evolution and atheism, 'Dr Dawkins "probably single-handedly makes more converts to intelligent design than any of the leading intelligent design theorists".' This is not the first, not the second, not even the third time this plonkingly witless point has been made (and more than one reply has aptly cited Uncle Remus: "Oh please please Brer Fox, don't throw me in that awful briar patch").

Chamberlainites are apt to quote the late Stephen Jay Gould's 'NOMA' - 'non-overlapping magisteria'. Gould claimed that science and true religion never come into conflict because they exist in completely separate dimensions of discourse:

To say it for all my colleagues and for the umpteenth millionth time (from college bull sessions to learned treatises): science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God's possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can't comment on it as scientists. This sounds terrific, right up until you give it a moment's thought. You then realize that the presence of a creative deity in the universe is clearly a scientific hypothesis. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a more momentous hypothesis in all of science. A universe with a god would be a completely different kind of universe from one without, and it would be a scientific difference. God could clinch the matter in his favour at any moment by staging a spectacular demonstration of his powers, one that would satisfy the exacting standards of science. Even the infamous Templeton Foundation recognized that God is a scientific hypothesis - by funding double-blind trials to test whether remote prayer would speed the recovery of heart patients. It didn't, of course, although a control group who knew they had been prayed for tended to get worse (how about a class action suit against the Templeton Foundation?) Despite such well-financed efforts, no evidence for God's existence has yet appeared.

To see the disingenuous hypocrisy of religious people who embrace NOMA, imagine that forensic archeologists, by some unlikely set of circumstances, discovered DNA evidence demonstrating that Jesus was born of a virgin mother and had no father. If NOMA enthusiasts were sincere, they should dismiss the archeologists' DNA out of hand: "Irrelevant. Scientific evidence has no bearing on theological questions. Wrong magisterium." Does anyone seriously imagine that they would say anything remotely like that? You can bet your boots that not just the fundamentalists but every professor of theology and every bishop in the land would trumpet the archeological evidence to the skies.

Either Jesus had a father or he didn't. The question is a scientific one, and scientific evidence, if any were available, would be used to settle it. The same is true of any miracle - and the deliberate and intentional creation of the universe would have to have been the mother and father of all miracles. Either it happened or it didn't. It is a fact, one way or the other, and in our state of uncertainty we can put a probability on it - an estimate that may change as more information comes in. Humanity's best estimate of the probability of divine creation dropped steeply in 1859 when The Origin of Species was published, and it has declined steadily during the subsequent decades, as evolution consolidated itself from plausible theory in the nineteenth century to established fact today.

The Chamberlain tactic of snuggling up to 'sensible' religion, in order to present a united front against ('intelligent design') creationists, is fine if your central concern is the battle for evolution. That is a valid central concern, and I salute those who press it, such as Eugenie Scott in Evolution versus Creationism. But if you are concerned with the stupendous scientific question of whether the universe was created by a supernatural intelligence or not, the lines are drawn completely differently. On this larger issue, fundamentalists are united with 'moderate' religion on one side, and I find myself on the other.

Of course, this all presupposes that the God we are talking about is a personal intelligence such as Yahweh, Allah, Baal, Wotan, Zeus or Lord Krishna. If, by 'God', you mean love, nature, goodness, the universe, the laws of physics, the spirit of humanity, or Planck's constant, none of the above applies. An American student asked her professor whether he had a view about me. 'Sure,' he replied. 'He's positive science is incompatible with religion, but he waxes ecstatic about nature and the universe. To me, that is ¬religion!' Well, if that's what you choose to mean by religion, fine, that makes me a religious man. But if your God is a being who designs universes, listens to prayers, forgives sins, wreaks miracles, reads your thoughts, cares about your welfare and raises you from the dead, you are unlikely to be satisfied. As the distinguished American physicist Steven Weinberg said, "If you want to say that 'God is energy,' then you can find God in a lump of coal." But don't expect congregations to flock to your church.

When Einstein said 'Did God have a choice in creating the Universe?' he meant 'Could the universe have begun in more than one way?' 'God does not play dice' was Einstein's poetic way of doubting Heisenberg's indeterminacy principle. Einstein was famously irritated when theists misunderstood him to mean a personal God. But what did he expect? The hunger to misunderstand should have been palpable to him. 'Religious' physicists usually turn out to be so only in the Einsteinian sense: they are atheists of a poetic disposition. So am I. But, given the widespread yearning for that great misunderstanding, deliberately to confuse Einsteinian pantheism with supernatural religion is an act of intellectual high treason.

Accepting, then, that the God Hypothesis is a proper scientific hypothesis whose truth or falsehood is hidden from us only by lack of evidence, what should be our best estimate of the probability that God exists, given the evidence now available? Pretty low I think, and here's why.

First, most of the traditional arguments for God's existence, from Aquinas on, are easily demolished. Several of them, such as the First Cause argument, work by setting up an infinite regress which God is wheeled out to terminate. But we are never told why God is magically able to terminate regresses while needing no explanation himself. To be sure, we do need some kind of explanation for the origin of all things. Physicists and cosmologists are hard at work on the problem. But whatever the answer - a random quantum fluctuation or a Hawking/Penrose singularity or whatever we end up calling it - it will be simple. Complex, statistically improbable things, by definition, don't just happen; they demand an explanation in their own right. They are impotent to terminate regresses, in a way that simple things are not. The first cause cannot have been an intelligence - let alone an intelligence that answers prayers and enjoys being worshipped. Intelligent, creative, complex, statistically improbable things come late into the universe, as the product of evolution or some other process of gradual escalation from simple beginnings. They come late into the universe and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it.

Another of Aquinas' efforts, the Argument from Degree, is worth spelling out, for it epitomises the characteristic flabbiness of theological reasoning. We notice degrees of, say, goodness or temperature, and we measure them, Aquinas said, by reference to a maximum:

Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus, as fire, which is the maximum of heat, is the cause of all hot things . . . Therefore, there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. That's an argument? You might as well say that people vary in smelliness but we can make the judgment only by reference to a perfect maximum of conceivable smelliness. Therefore there must exist a pre-eminently peerless stinker, and we call him God. Or substitute any dimension of comparison you like, and derive an equivalently fatuous conclusion. That's theology.

The only one of the traditional arguments for God that is widely used today is the teleological argument, sometimes called the Argument from Design although - since the name begs the question of its validity - it should better be called the Argument for Design. It is the familiar 'watchmaker' argument, which is surely one of the most superficially plausible bad arguments ever discovered - and it is rediscovered by just about everybody until they are taught the logical fallacy and Darwin's brilliant alternative.

In the familiar world of human artifacts, complicated things that look designed are designed. To naïve observers, it seems to follow that similarly complicated things in the natural world that look designed - things like eyes and hearts - are designed too. It isn't just an argument by analogy. There is a semblance of statistical reasoning here too - fallacious, but carrying an illusion of plausibility. If you randomly scramble the fragments of an eye or a leg or a heart a million times, you'd be lucky to hit even one combination that could see, walk or pump. This demonstrates that such devices could not have been put together by chance. And of course, no sensible scientist ever said they could. Lamentably, the scientific education of most British and American students omits all mention of Darwinism, and therefore the only alternative to chance that most people can imagine is design.

Even before Darwin's time, the illogicality was glaring: how could it ever have been a good idea to postulate, in explanation for the existence of improbable things, a designer who would have to be even more improbable? The entire argument is a logical non-starter, as David Hume realized before Darwin was born. What Hume didn't know was the supremely elegant alternative to both chance and design that Darwin was to give us. Natural selection is so stunningly powerful and elegant, it not only explains the whole of life, it raises our consciousness and boosts our confidence in science's future ability to explain everything else.

Natural selection is not just an alternative to chance. It is the only ultimate alternative ever suggested. Design is a workable explanation for organized complexity only in the short term. It is not an ultimate explanation, because designers themselves demand an explanation. If, as Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel once playfully speculated, life on this planet was deliberately seeded by a payload of bacteria in the nose cone of a rocket, we still need an explanation for the intelligent aliens who dispatched the rocket. Ultimately they must have evolved by gradual degrees from simpler beginnings. Only evolution, or some kind of gradualistic 'crane' (to use Daniel Dennett's neat term), is capable of terminating the regress. Natural selection is an anti-chance process, which gradually builds up complexity, step by tiny step. The end product of this ratcheting process is an eye, or a heart, or a brain - a device whose improbable complexity is utterly baffling until you spot the gentle ramp that leads up to it.

Whether my conjecture is right that evolution is the only explanation for life in the universe, there is no doubt that it is the explanation for life on this planet. Evolution is a fact, and it is among the more secure facts known to science. But it had to get started somehow. Natural selection cannot work its wonders until certain minimal conditions are in place, of which the most important is an accurate system of replication - DNA, or something that works like DNA.

The origin of life on this planet - which means the origin of the first self-replicating molecule - is hard to study, because it (probably) only happened once, 4 billion years ago and under very different conditions from those with which we are familiar. We may never know how it happened. Unlike the ordinary evolutionary events that followed, it must have been a genuinely very improbable - in the sense of unpredictable - event: too improbable, perhaps, for chemists to reproduce it in the laboratory or even devise a plausible theory for what happened. This weirdly paradoxical conclusion - that a chemical account of the origin of life, in order to be plausible, has to be implausible - would follow if it were the case that life is extremely rare in the universe. And indeed we have never encountered any hint of extraterrestrial life, not even by radio - the circumstance that prompted Enrico Fermi's cry: "Where is everybody?"

Suppose life's origin on a planet took place through a hugely improbable stroke of luck, so improbable that it happens on only one in a billion planets. The National Science Foundation would laugh at any chemist whose proposed research had only a one in a hundred chance of succeeding, let alone one in a billion. Yet, given that there are at least a billion billion planets in the universe, even such absurdly low odds as these will yield life on a billion planets. And - this is where the famous anthropic principle comes in - Earth has to be one of them, because here we are.

If you set out in a spaceship to find the one planet in the galaxy that has life, the odds against your finding it would be so great that the task would be indistinguishable, in practice, from impossible. But if you are alive (as you manifestly are if you are about to step into a spaceship) you needn't bother to go looking for that one planet because, by definition, you are already standing on it. The anthropic principle really is rather elegant. By the way, I don't actually think the origin of life was as improbable as all that. I think the galaxy has plenty of islands of life dotted about, even if the islands are too spaced out for any one to hope for a meeting with any other. My point is only that, given the number of planets in the universe, the origin of life could in theory be as lucky as a blindfolded golfer scoring a hole in one. The beauty of the anthropic principle is that, even in the teeth of such stupefying odds against, it still gives us a perfectly satisfying explanation for life's presence on our own planet.

The anthropic principle is usually applied not to planets but to universes. Physicists have suggested that the laws and constants of physics are too good - as if the universe were set up to favour our eventual evolution. It is as though there were, say, half a dozen dials representing the major constants of physics. Each of the dials could in principle be tuned to any of a wide range of values. Almost all of these knob-twiddlings would yield a universe in which life would be impossible. Some universes would fizzle out within the first picosecond. Others would contain no elements heavier than hydrogen and helium. In yet others, matter would never condense into stars (and you need stars in order to forge the elements of chemistry and hence life). You can estimate the very low odds against the six knobs all just happening to be correctly tuned, and conclude that a divine knob-twiddler must have been at work. But, as we have already seen, that explanation is vacuous because it begs the biggest question of all. The divine knob twiddler would himself have to have been at least as improbable as the settings of his knobs.

Again, the anthropic principle delivers its devastatingly neat solution. Physicists already have reason to suspect that our universe - everything we can see - is only one universe among perhaps billions. Some theorists postulate a multiverse of foam, where the universe we know is just one bubble. Each bubble has its own laws and constants. Our familiar laws of physics are parochial bylaws. Of all the universes in the foam, only a minority has what it takes to generate life. And, with anthropic hindsight, we obviously have to be sitting in a member of that minority, because, well, here we are, aren't we? As physicists have said, it is no accident that we see stars in our sky, for a universe without stars would also lack the chemical elements necessary for life. There may be universes whose skies have no stars: but they also have no inhabitants to notice the lack. Similarly, it is no accident that we see a rich diversity of living species: for an evolutionary process that is capable of yielding a species that can see things and reflect on them cannot help producing lots of other species at the same time. The reflective species must be surrounded by an ecosystem, as it must be surrounded by stars.

The anthropic principle entitles us to postulate a massive dose of luck in accounting for the existence of life on our planet. But there are limits. We are allowed one stroke of luck for the origin of evolution, and perhaps for a couple of other unique events like the origin of the eukaryotic cell and the origin of consciousness. But that's the end of our entitlement to large-scale luck. We emphatically cannot invoke major strokes of luck to account for the illusion of design that glows from each of the billion species of living creature that have ever lived on Earth. The evolution of life is a general and continuing process, producing essentially the same result in all species, however different the details.

Contrary to what is sometimes alleged, evolution is a predictive science. If you pick any hitherto unstudied species and subject it to minute scrutiny, any evolutionist will confidently predict that each individual will be observed to do everything in its power, in the particular way of the species - plant, herbivore, carnivore, nectivore or whatever it is - to survive and propagate the DNA that rides inside it. We won't be around long enough to test the prediction but we can say, with great confidence, that if a comet strikes Earth and wipes out the mammals, a new fauna will rise to fill their shoes, just as the mammals filled those of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. And the range of parts played by the new cast of life's drama will be similar in broad outline, though not in detail, to the roles played by the mammals, and the dinosaurs before them, and the mammal-like reptiles before the dinosaurs. The same rules are predictably being followed, in millions of species all over the globe, and for hundreds of millions of years. Such a general observation requires an entirely different explanatory principle from the anthropic principle that explains one-off events like the origin of life, or the origin of the universe, by luck. That entirely different principle is natural selection.

We explain our existence by a combination of the anthropic principle and Darwin's principle of natural selection. That combination provides a complete and deeply satisfying explanation for everything that we see and know. Not only is the god hypothesis unnecessary. It is spectacularly unparsimonious. Not only do we need no God to explain the universe and life. God stands out in the universe as the most glaring of all superfluous sore thumbs.
We cannot, of course, disprove God, just as we can't disprove Thor, fairies, leprechauns and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But, like those other fantasies that we can't disprove, we can say that God is very very improbable.

Richard Dawkins is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society, and the author of nine books, including The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker and The Ancestor's Tale. His new book, The God Delusion, published last week by Houghton Mifflin, is already a NEW YORK TIMES bestseller, and his Foundation for Reason and Science launched at the same time (see RichardDawkins.net).
BTW, The Book is only no2 in over-all sales on Amazon.com (Unlike Amazon.ca/uk where it's no1) so try boost the sales by promoting it (I can point you towards a short guide to it on a site if anyone's curious)
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Post by Majin Gojira »

I'm still reading my copy.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I keep my copy on hand for when work is slow. I didn't want to rush through it, since it's not something you can read without being in the right frame of mind. It's nice to be able to say "I knew that argument already" and then find a new aspect of it you didn't expect, or some better way of arguing for it.

I'm going to try and get family and friends to read my copy or buy their own, even if I expect my folks won't touch it after reading the first page (not because of religious reasons, but just lack of interest, ironic, given the problems they complain about in the world are down to religion for the most part).
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Post by Rekkon »

If, by 'God', you mean ... Planck's constant ...
Dibs. I call dibs. Planck's constant is my new definition of god.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Saying that God is very improbable is the most technically correct answer, but I personally prefer to say that God is a ridiculous idea. Nobody shies away from saying that Thor the Thunder God is a ridiculous idea, so they have no right to get offended if I say the same about God.

Of course, you can say that if they're offended, they won't be listening. But here's a secret: they won't listen no matter how carefully you put it. As soon as they figure out that you're saying there is no God, you automatically become "unreasonable" to them anyway.

It's pretty sad to live in a society where people describe their religious beliefs in factual terms with less opposition than people who describe evolution in factual terms. At the very least, people like that should face mockery; it may not change their minds but it might make the next generation a bit more reluctant to wear it on their sleeves, at least. The present-day atmosphere of coddling only enables their arrogance.
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Post by dworkin »

My line to the appeasers is

Yes, religious wierdoes are allowed to believe whatever they like. The problem is they want to make your kids/grandkids believe it too.

At which point the average apathist sees the bloody fucking point.
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Post by Medic »

'Religious' physicists usually turn out to be so only in the Einsteinian sense: they are atheists of a poetic disposition. So am I. But, given the widespread yearning for that great misunderstanding, deliberately to confuse Einsteinian pantheism with supernatural religion is an act of intellectual high treason.
I'd definitely have to characterize myself in the Dawkins / Churchillian sense of atheist because this infuriates me on so many levels. The veritable turf-war over the intellecual and philosophical beliefs and convictions of famous, deceased persons isn't just the purview of religious fanatics but of John Q. Public, arm-chair philosophers and vanilla Christians alike.

It's inverse is no less absurd: the disavowing of the intellecual and philosophical beliefs and convictions of famous persons [esp. if deceased]. Hitler: The Pagan and George "Religious people don't kill innocents" Bush speak to this half of the equation. [the ladder an extension of that mindset onto mere commoners; the only REAL qualification for disavowal is commiting heinous and evil acts]

In proselytization and conversion there are forces that know limits not constrained to time nor space nor empirically-observed fact. For me it really kills any and all appeal appeasing the middle ground may hold. When I'm 6-feet-under for over 60 years I'd like to be praised or damned for who and what I was and not for what the weight that my name may potentially carry towards some bullfuck ideology. The best way to realize this is to speak and act in a manner as plain and unequivocal as Dawkins.

Other names subject to equivocative, revisionist asshattery: the founding fathers, any dictator of the 20th century, infamous criminal, war heroes, or any significant public figures.
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Post by Cos Dashit »

I'm sorry to have to ask this.

Is the book called The God Delusion or Why There Almost Certainly Is No God?
Please forgive any idiotic comments, stupid observations, or dumb questions in above post, for I am but a college student with little real world experience.
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Post by Rye »

God Delusion.
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Post by Cos Dashit »

Thank you.
Please forgive any idiotic comments, stupid observations, or dumb questions in above post, for I am but a college student with little real world experience.
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Post by Cykeisme »

I find it hilarious that, almost as if to demonstrate Dawkins' points, at the bottom of the thread page I find this link (just above the "Powered by phpBB" line, I believe it is targeted advertising of some sort, based on the context of the thread's context):

http://www.anointed-one.net/atheism.html
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Post by B5B7 »

That link is a classic - I hereby paste the introductory paragraph from it.
Read it and gasp. I have bolded particularly meretricious lines.

Atheism is a lack of belief mentality which rejects the existence of anything supernatural. By default, atheists are also naturalists and evolutionists. They believe there is a natural explanation for all circumstances and nothing has ever occurred that has a supernatural answer. While atheism does not break any state or federal laws, it does break several scientific laws. A scientific law is defined as the observance and recognition of a repeatable process in nature. It is widely accepted as a statement of fact and a universal truth. Scientific laws do not need complex external proofs. They are accepted at face value because they have always been observed to be true. A miracle is an event which is inexplicable by the laws of nature. A miracle contradicts natural, scientific laws and atheists typically scoff at the suggestion that miracles have ever occurred. What scientific laws does atheism break?
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Post by Parallax »

Hahaha, oh ... that's a classic!
I think, when I find the time, I'll go through that page and rip it to shreds. It's fun doing that.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

On another note, if several of SD.nets denizens were to pool our resources and timewe could theoretically write our own equivalent of the God delusion. Darth Wong and Durandal's site are already a good start, and we have Rye's knowledge on Christian history, while we also have several people who can pretty much rip apart most Christian arguments. :P

Now to start taking apart that bullshit site about the anointed one. I don't have time to do the whole lot so I will just look at some of it.
What term is used to describe something you believe to be true but has no empirical evidence?

Faith.
I could also use stupidity as well.
The bottom line is we live in a universe which completely frustrates any attempt to explain its origin and content by natural processes alone.
I guess the big bang theory just described a chemical explosion then :roll:
The best evidence for the possible existence of a supernatural creator lies in the total lack of any scientific evidence in these key areas.
Appeal to ignorance
Can God be scientifically proven? No, it would be nice but his existence cannot be proven scientifically.
No evidence = no case. While it doesn't disprove God, if the opposition has evidence to your zero evidence, they have a stronger case.
The reason is God is supernatural; he exists outside the natural, scientific world. While our scientific tools cannot prove God exists, they do provide us with evidence we can use to determine if there is a better explanation for what has taken place besides the existence of a supernatural creator.
Science deals with the observable universe. If God can interact with the observable universe, ie miracles, then he can fall the umbrella of science. The fact that God has not been observed seriously weakens the God argument.
It is interesting how atheists reject any notion of the supernatural because of what they perceive to be a lack of evidence when they could use that same objectivity to reject their naturalistic world view.
Yes, I guess all those biological processes we observe are just illusions produced by the Matrix then. :roll:
Most atheists are not even honest enough to apply the same burden of proof for naturalism that they demand of supernaturalism.
Naturalism has been observed. Supernaturalism hasn't. How is this a different level of burden of proof? Oh right, you are full of shit.
The laws of science falsify the notion that this physical, living world came to be through natural means.
I think you meant to say the laws of CREATION science falsify the notion that this physical, living world came to be through natural means. Because frankly I don't know which laws of science you are quoting, but intellectual honesty isn't your strong point.
These laws provide very credible evidence for the possible existence of a supernatural being.
But wait, didn't you say science can't prove God. But then why are you using science to prove something which be definition is outside its domain. Talk about a stolen concept.

In any event your proof, consists not of science, but a logical fallacy, ie lack of evidence to explain it naturally which is an appeal to ignorance. Note that the lack of evidnece to explain it naturally is grossly exaggerated, but why are we surprise he lies.
Atheism violates these basic laws of science.

Whatever you believe mate.
Atheism requires not only a tremendous amount of faith but also a belief in miracles.
Because you say so, so it must be true. Obviously
And not only miracles but natural miracles, an oxymoron.
Fortunately atheism doesn't require miracles. I guess you are just full of shit.
Both naturalism and supernaturalism require faith and which one you place your faith in is one of the two most important choices you will ever make.


You are right. After reading this bullshit I know I don't require faith. I will use things like observation and logic to make my decision. Something you can't do.
<snip broad introduction>
If matter and energy cannot be created, how did they originate?
Where did the entire physical universe come from?
It was already there at the beginning of time. Wow, that was difficult.
Again, it is impossible to create matter and energy through natural methods.
We don't need to because it was already there.
However, they do exist, so we find ourselves in a quandary.
No we are not, because matter and energy were already there.
It would seem to the unbiased either matter and energy made themselves from nothing or a supernatural creator made them.
Or it was already there.
Both answers violate the law of conservation. The fact that matter and energy cannot be created is consistent with the claim in Genesis which says God rested from his work and all he created. This law of science contradicts the notion that matter came from nothing through natural means. Bible believing theists understand the universe was framed by the Word of God and what is seen did not come from things that are visible. God is the one who calls those things that do not exist as though they did.
I like how his "proof" God did consists of him just describing Genesis. Maybe I can "prove" the big bang theory from just describing a science text book.

Why couldn't the universe have always existed?
Because nothing that has a beginning and an end could have always existed.
It can if its beginning occurred at the same moment time came into existance. Guess what? Time is a dimension of the universe, hence it cannot have predated the universe.
Today, virtually all scientists accept the Big Bang theory which says the entire universe came into existence at a particular point in time when all of the galaxies, stars and planets were formed.
It came into its present form from at the beginning of time. However all the matter and energy was already there, just not in the form we recognise.
The Law of Entropy says closed systems go from a state of high energy to low energy and from order to disorder. All closed systems, including our universe, disintegrate over time as they decay to a lower order of available energy and organization. Entropy always increases and never decreases in a closed system. All scientific observations confirm everything continues to move towards a greater state of decay and disorder. Because the available energy is being used up and there is no source of new energy, the universe could not have always existed. If the universe has always existed, it would now be uniform in temperature, suffering what is known as heat death.
At first I thought this was purely retarded. Then I realise where he is coming from. He just arbitarily assumes "always existed" means the universe is infinite years old, as opposed to 14 billion years old. Hence from his bullshit premise, he would expect the heat death to have already occurred.

This is a fallacy of suppressed premise, where the suppressed premise is that "always exist" = infinite age.
<snip explanation of heat death>

Some believe the law of entropy cannot be applied to the universe because they feel the universe is an open system and not a closed one. A closed system is defined as a system in which neither matter nor energy can be exchanged with its surroundings. Matter and energy cannot enter or escape from a closed system. It has boundaries that cannot be crossed. The definition of the word universe is all matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole. If the universe is "all matter and energy", how could it be an open system?
If the universe is everything, how can there be something else out there to provide more matter and energy?
Really? Please enlighten us who actually proposed the universe is an open system. Maybe he is referring to the inhabitants of Logopolis

The skeptic asks, "If God created the universe, then who created God?" God is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question, "Who created God?" is illogical. A better question would be, "If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn't God need a cause? And if God doesn't need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?"
It is a perfectly logical question when the Creationists starts off with the premise that everything must have been created. But I see they are going to ignore the parts of the argument now that its been dismissed.
Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
Except casuality itself moron.
The universe has a beginning; therefore, the universe has a cause.
The cause of the universe being like it is now through expansion is called the big bang. The cause of the universe's existence in the first place doesn't exist. Because the universe has always existed.
It is important to stress the words "which has a beginning". The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so he does not need a cause.
Talk about its this way because I say so.
Einstein's general relativity shows that time is linked to matter and space. Time itself would have begun along with matter and space at the beginning of the universe.
Despite knowing this, he can't draw the conclusion that the universe always existed. I bet you because he thinks there must be a "time before time", or else how else would he possibly think the universe is infinite years old.
Since God is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time and is independent and outside of time.
Since I haven't proved God is the creator, lets just state it out loud.

And lastly
Scientific Method

The scientific method is held in high esteem by most atheists and it is composed of the following parts...


1) Careful observation of a phenomenon.
2) Formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomenon.
3) Experimentation to demonstrate whether the hypothesis is true or false.
4) A conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.
Basic introduction
Nobody has ever observed the creation of matter or energy.
Nobody has ever observed God creating matter or energy. I guess maybe because matter and energy was already there.
Nobody has ever observed a molecular cloud collapse or any planet form
.
Nobody has ever observed God create the Earth, but I guess you hold Christian level of proof to be much lower than the atheists and then have the cheek to criticise atheism for the same thing. Hypocrite.

And BTW, I can infer the formation of a planet by application of something called gravity, which has been observed and effects quantified and calculated. Too bad the same can't be said of God
Nobody has ever observed abiogenesis.
Nobody has ever observed a woman being created from a man's ribs. And studies into abiogenesis show more promise with the formation of amino acids under duplicated primitive conditions, staring with the Miller - urey experiment.
Nobody has ever observed the evolution of any genome.
Nobody has ever observed God creating animals. And evolution has been observed dishonest dipshit.
Nobody has ever observed any phylum, class, order or family change.
But we have directly observe changes at the species level. Funny how he doesn't mention that does he? Its just a matter of applying the same principles that changes at the species level to say that it would also change at the family, order, class or phylum level.

And we can infer that changes have been observed at those levels by analysing DNA and we can estimate the time the split occured by the technique of using the molecular clock.
Evolutionists are excellent at Step 2 - Hypothesizing.

The only problem comes on Steps 1, 3 and 4 - Observation, Experimentation and Validation.
Utter bullshit. Speciation has been observed multiple times. Talkorigins lists numerous examples.
We read about their theories and the conclusions of the failed experiments they performed in an effort to validate their opinions about a phenomenon that has not only never been proven scientifically but has never even been observed.
I guess you just selectively NOT read about the experiments which do prove evolution. Heard of the fruit fly experiments dumb ass.
The definition of a miracle is an event which is inexplicable by the laws of nature. The fact is there are zero generally accepted scientific explanations on these issues.
Dismissed earlier, dipshit.
If you want to believe in naturalism it is fine with me but please don't make the erroneous claim that "science" is on your side.
Ah yes, the creationist tactic of actually "supporting" their arguments by trying to drag the other side down to the same level. I am sure in some twisted portions of their brain that actually makes logical sense. Too bad it isn't.
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Rye
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Post by Rye »

Easy way to show that abiogenesis must have happened at some point.

1) Life as pertains to abiogenesis is organic (carbon) based chemistry; it refers to an autonamous self replicator, something with a metabolism.

2) Carbon didn't always exist, it is the product of helium fusion (I think it's called the triple alpha process).

3) Life exists now, and according to fossil evidence, it has for billions of years.

4) Life couldn't have always existed, now it does, therefore, abiogenesis must have happened. QED.
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Post by Parallax »

I just shoved up my own shot at Anointed-One.net up on my blog for anyone that might be interested. I liked your go at it, mr friendly guy.
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