Viscount stats unveiled; SSD mess resolved

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-24 05:57pm

I think any plan to attack the half-completed Emperor's White Elephant without considering a fleet of defenders is foolhardy.

Which is why the novelization seems to imply just about 100% of the Rebel naval assets went into this one offensive.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-10-24 07:12pm

VT-16 wrote:
I think any plan to attack the half-completed Emperor's White Elephant without considering a fleet of defenders is foolhardy.
Which is why the novelization seems to imply just about 100% of the Rebel naval assets went into this one offensive.

Indeed. They had to try when they did, because a fully-built DS would be invulnerable. Plus, the chance to hit the Emperor off Coruscant clinched it for them. The Rebellion was planning to live or die at Endor.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-24 11:17pm

It always seemed to me that the entire fleet was there to engage the Death Star itself to provide cover for the fighter assult. I thought that the rebels figured that the Empire would have actually learned from its original mistake and made a "tighter defense" for the DSII. If this wasn't the case then why did Ackbar yell "It's a trap!" when they realized the SD fleet was there. They probably were prepared for a command ship and escorts, but not 36+ SDs
Also, Han seems to be able to roll with a punch pretty well. Now if Leia or 3PO had freaked out at seeing the command ship, that might have suggested that they didn't anticipate some sort of Star Destroyer pressence.

I think the two things Ackbar didn't anticipate were the DSII superlaser being operational and walking into a trap of a FLEET of 36+ SDs. And certainly not having to deal with both at the same time while the shield was still up.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-24 11:31pm

It should have been very obvious to Rebel Intelligence that the Executor was used to ferry the Emperor over. Thus they should have made provision for the need to engage the Executor.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-24 11:56pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:It should have been very obvious to Rebel Intelligence that the Executor was used to ferry the Emperor over. Thus they should have made provision for the need to engage the Executor.

Well I think they were. They just weren't prepared to engage its 36+ friends.

When Mon Mothma says that "the weapons systems on this Death Star are not yet operational", Is she refereing soley to the super laser or all its offensive weaponry?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-24 11:58pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:It should have been very obvious to Rebel Intelligence that the Executor was used to ferry the Emperor over. Thus they should have made provision for the need to engage the Executor.

Err-why? Not only was Executor not associated with Palpatine but Vader but why should the Rebels have assumed it would stay once its ferry duties were done?

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-25 12:03am

Batman wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:It should have been very obvious to Rebel Intelligence that the Executor was used to ferry the Emperor over. Thus they should have made provision for the need to engage the Executor.
Err-why? Not only was Executor not associated with Palpatine but Vader but why should the Rebels have assumed it would stay once its ferry duties were done?

On the contrary. Vader was actually not in command of the Executor at one point of time I recall. I believe it was during the time when the Emperor sent him to speed up the construction of the DSII. Moreover, Vader was at the DSII. By the same token, where else would the Executor go without Vader?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-25 12:20am

Make up your mind. Either Executor was associated with Palpatine in which case Vader doesn't figure in on it, or it was associated with Vader in which case there's no reason the Rebellion would have to account for its presence unless they know Vader (and by extension Executor) will be there. Which they didn't, as per Luke's reaction to Vader's presence in ROTJ.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-25 12:23am

Well Vader didn't arrive in the Executor, but he is on board when the Imperial shuttle with Luke in it arrives. I'm sure whatever ship he is on, he commands, unless the Emperor is on board as well.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-25 12:26am

Batman wrote:Make up your mind. Either Executor was associated with Palpatine in which case Vader doesn't figure in on it, or it was associated with Vader in which case there's no reason the Rebellion would have to account for its presence unless they know Vader (and by extension Executor) will be there. Which they didn't, as per Luke's reaction to Vader's presence in ROTJ.

Well, it's like Han says, there are alot of command ships. What are the number of Executor type vessels at this time? Enough that Han wouldn't immediatley associate it with Vader even though Luke specificaly says he is on it?

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-25 12:37am

Batman wrote:Make up your mind. Either Executor was associated with Palpatine in which case Vader doesn't figure in on it, or it was associated with Vader in which case there's no reason the Rebellion would have to account for its presence unless they know Vader (and by extension Executor) will be there. Which they didn't, as per Luke's reaction to Vader's presence in ROTJ.

Suppose the Emperor wanted to return to Coruscant, won't the Emperor travel on the same ship he came on?

If we aren't going to associate the ship with anything, the Rebellion cannot expect that the leader of the Empire shouldn't have any capital ships of significant quantity or quality by his side on a space station that is protected by a shield and that is perceived, however incorrectly as defenseless?

The Alliance may have wrongly accounted for the fleet that was assembled to meet them, but a few ships should be expected.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-10-25 12:42am

@Fingolfin_Noldor
Either Executor is Palpy's personal ferry (which will depart the moment he's safely delivered to DSII) or it's Vader's flagship (which is going to be wherever he is).
So unless the Rebels had reason to assume Vader would be onboard or around DSII, there was no reason for them to assume Executor would be there, either.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-25 12:52am

Batman wrote:@Fingolfin_Noldor
Either Executor is Palpy's personal ferry (which will depart the moment he's safely delivered to DSII) or it's Vader's flagship (which is going to be wherever he is).
So unless the Rebels had reason to assume Vader would be onboard or around DSII, there was no reason for them to assume Executor would be there, either.

Why would it depart when he was delivered? Wouldn't it be just as likely to stick around until he was ready to go back? Also they know the Emperor is there, never mind Vader, they should have expected some show of fleet force.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2006-10-25 12:52am

Why would Executor leave the moment the Emperor is aboard the DS2? It's immobile for crying out loud. The guy is willing to throw money such that entire planets are fortified, but he's not willing to tie up one command ship? Particularly when the resources represented utterly pale in significance to the DS2?

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-25 12:53am

Batman wrote:@Fingolfin_Noldor
Either Executor is Palpy's personal ferry (which will depart the moment he's safely delivered to DSII) or it's Vader's flagship (which is going to be wherever he is).
So unless the Rebels had reason to assume Vader would be onboard or around DSII, there was no reason for them to assume Executor would be there, either.

At that point of time, the ship was the Emperor's personal ferry. Whether it was redesignated is beyond any of us.

And it is not the business of the Intelligence to assume the best case scenario.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-10-25 12:58am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:At that point of time, the ship was the Emperor's personal ferry. Whether it was redesignated is beyond any of us.

And it is not the business of the Intelligence to assume the best case scenario.

Aside from delivering Palpatine to Endor (ROTJ novelization), where are you getting that the Executor had become the Emperor's personal ferry?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-10-25 01:11am

Who cares? The goal wasn't to kill all Imperial vessels: it was to kill the Emperor by blowing up DS2. The battle in ROTJ lasted what, half an hour? Much, much longer than the initial 'lower shield, arrive, drive in, bang, run away' plan required.

I don't see why the rebels had to plan to DESTROY the Executor: simply distract her or weather her attack for the five/ten minutes required to get Wedge down the chute and kill the Emperor. The plan was scuppered by the shield still being up, the Imperials flanking them, and the DS2 being armed, but they clearly didn't plan for ANY of those things.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-10-25 01:12am

havokeff wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:At that point of time, the ship was the Emperor's personal ferry. Whether it was redesignated is beyond any of us.

And it is not the business of the Intelligence to assume the best case scenario.
Aside from delivering Palpatine to Endor (ROTJ novelization), where are you getting that the Executor had become the Emperor's personal ferry?

A ship can be given a specific role at any point.

When it ferried Palpatine to the DSII, it was his personal ferry. Prior to that it was not. THereafter, it served as the flagship of the Imperial Fleet that fought the Rebel fleet.

It WAS his personal ferry at that point of time. It need not be a permanent role. Although the Eclipse later served that function.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2006-10-25 01:22am

Stark wrote:Han's reaction is perhaps best taken in context: the plan was for the shield to be down by the time the fleet arrived, so that the attack on the DS2 could commence immediately. If it went 'according to plan', the Rebel operation would perhaps have taken five or ten minutes - long enough for the fighters to penetrate the defenceless DS2 and pop it while the fleet engaged any Imperial fleet nearby. With the shield up and DS2 armed, it was a different story.

The Executor still had to be sustained for at least around a half hour probably, definitely no less than fifteen or twenty minutes. That's not that brief.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-10-25 01:31am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Executor still had to be sustained for at least around a half hour probably, definitely no less than fifteen or twenty minutes. That's not that brief.

I think there's a big difference between 'planned on engaging Imperial escorts' and 'planned on blowing up Imperial escorts'. The rebels were clearly prepared for casualities, and in their initial plan the rebel fleet would just be distracting Imperial forces and supporting the starfighter attack. I interpret Akbar's desire to retreat as his unwillingness to lose ships for nothing. With the shield up and no communication with the commandoes, the fleet had no idea how long they'd need to wait before they could commence their attack.

It's worth noting that they came out of hyperspace seconds from the surface of the shield, and even later when they had closed with the ISDs fighters responded to Akbar's order to commence the attack quickly, and were at the surface of the DS2 in short order. I don't see how the operation could be imagined to take a full half hour.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-10-25 04:56am

To those who implied that anyone said the Imperial fleet did nothing.. this is a strawman of sorts. By no means is anyone suggesting that the Imperial fleet did not return fire, or caused no damage. They did begin to defend themselves when the Rebel fleet unexpectedly closed into extraordinarily close range to take refuge from the second Death Star's superlaser. They had no choice but to do so.

However, this is a far cry from what would have happened had they not been restrained by the Emperor's standing order. As has been noted, heavy turbolaser turrets would be less effective at close range due to the limitations of the maximum elevation/traverse and also the relatively low speed that the the biggest turrets are able to elevate/traverse.
Were it not for the order that prevented them from engaging on sight, the Imperials would undoubtedly have seriously (perhaps cripplingly) hurt the Rebel fleet before it could have closed in. Up close, the disparity in firepower still existed, but was perhaps less glaring.

Referring to the post immediately before this one, Stark has an excellent point.
The planned operation was only supposed to take roughly as long as the time between the (actual events) of the shield going down, and Wedge and Lando blasting free and clear of the superstructure.

There was a lengthy unforeseen delay due to the fact that the Emperor was aware of the imminent Rebel attack, and had stationed a large force of defenders at the shield generator.

Ackbar obviously wanted to pull back because it would have been a massive waste of some of the Rebels' best ships and crews, and he was right in wanting that. Lando's faith in Han was completely unfounded and unplaced; only the completely unplanned, unpredicted aid and intervention of indigenous forces on Endor allowed the shield to go down.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-25 06:58am

They had no choice but to do so

Then why does this come up again and again in Endor-threads? If people seriously don't mean to imply the Imperial fleet had no orders to fire if the Rebels tried to escape, then they should state so clearly. They're just coming across as morons otherwise.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-10-25 08:46am

Cut and paste (with embarassing spelling errors fixed) from my Endor analysis thread last year:

1. Rebel fleet exits hyperspace. Gold Leader discovers that they cannot get a reading on the Death Star's deflector shield, up or down. They're being jammed, the Empire knows they're coming. Gold Leader gives the order to pull up. Three X-Wing fighters collide with the deflector shield and are destroyed.

2. Imperial fleet comes out of hiding, in two flanking waves, heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides in a pincer. The shield barricades the Rebel fleet in front. Rebel fleet is effectively trapped.

3. Imperial fleet sends TIE squadrons forward.

4. Admiral Ackbar's crew adds power to the forward shield of the Alliance command ship. Ackbar gives the order to double main turbolaser battery firepower. Thermonuclear fireworks rocks the Star Cruiser. Gold Wing "is hit hard".

5. Ackbar gives the order for all ships to hold position and await his command to return. Lando and his attack squadrons are too far away to bother heeding the order.

6. Fighter combat ensues, concentrated within the perimeter of the Rebel fleet. Lando notices that only the Imperial fighters are attacking.

7. Imperial fleet finishes entering attack position. Admiral Piett gives order to hold position as they are.

8. From Luke's vantage point, another Rebel ship collides with the deflector shield.

9. Death Star opens fire and destroys the Star Cruiser Liberty, which had been engaged in a "furious long range battle".

10. Ackbar gives retreat order. Lando persuades him to keep fighting, and to "head for those Star Destroyers". Ackbar's "First Star Captain" notes:

Sir, we don't stand much of a chance against those Star Destroyers. They out-gun us, and they're more heavily armored.
Ackbar agrees. An aide approaches and confirms forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet.

Ackbar gives the order:

Concentrate your fire on their power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them.
Headquarters Frigate takes a turbolaser hit to one of the aft gyrostabilisers. Auxiliary shields are intensified in response.

That the Rebels were seemingly more successful in destroying Imperial ships than vice versa is likely due to the fact that the Imperials squandered their TIE assets without giving them capital ship support- clearly in the belief that the Death Star would destroy the Rebel fleet in good time, and that the TIEs were best used to harass and destroy Rebel fighters. In contrast, the Rebel fighters operated in tandem with the capital ships to exploit shield failures.

11. Rebel fleet is described as being decimated from Luke's vantage point, with the superlaser described as incinerating "ship after ship." and later "methodically disintegrated the Rebel ships."

12. Lando suggests that the fleet close to point-blank range against the Imperial fleet, the purpose being that the Death Star won't be able to fire on them without risking hitting Imperial ships.

13. Fleets engaging at point blank, like at the Battle of Coruscant. A Rebel Cruiser, having sustained critical damage ("its back alive with fires and explosions") rams and destroys an Imperial Star Destroyer. Cargo ships loaded with explosives are set on collision courses with Imperial ships.

14. Gold Leader, Red Leader, Blue Leader and Green Wing (Green Wing is for some reason the designation of a single fighter) attack the Communications Ship, which had already been disabled from an engagement with a Rebel Cruiser it had subsequently destroyed. Its damages were reparable however, so the Rebel fighters had to strike while it was still disabled. Green Wing crashes into the destroyer's front batteries, destroying them. Remaining fighters fire into the vessel's open cargo bay, where power reactors are located. Communication Ship is destroyed. Blue Leader is killed in the explosion.

15. Jamming stops immediately after the Communication Ship destruction.

16. Shield around the Death Star falls. Red Group and Gold Group begin their attack run (total Rebel fighters attacking are described as a horde). As they head to the surface, TIE Fighters give chase- they are specifically described as being disorganized and still-massing when this happens.

Note that at this point the Emperor is dead. See RotJ novelization quote about the catastrophic effect of his death on Imperial morale.

17. Three Rebel Star Cruisers attack the Super Star Destroyer at the same time. It is having difficulties with its guidance system.

18. Death Star begins jamming the Rebel fighters as they move along the surface.

19. Rebel fighters enter the Death Star. At some point in their run to the surface (they approached from the finished to the unfinished side) the more complete anti-aircraft defenses (as referred to in the novel) combined with the TIE pursuers must've severely depleted the Rebel fighter force.

20. Ackbar gives order to concentrate all firepower on the Super Star Destroyer. Bridge shields fail. Piett orders intensification of forward firepower, but too late. A-Wing collides with the bridge window. Super Star Destroyer goes out of controlled flight and collides with the Death Star.

21. Super Star Destroyer collision only exacerbates the panic, hysteria, and fear resulting from the Emperor's death. Posts are abandoned, numerous reactors meltdown on the Death Star. Rebel fleet is bombarding the Death Star. One can imagine the crushing effect on Imperial fleet morale the loss of Executor would've had anyway.

22. Gold and Red Leader destroy the Death Star and escape.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-10-25 09:47am

the Star Cruiser Liberty, which had been engaged in a "furious long range battle".

A "long-range battle"? Does this mean not all Imperial vessels followed Piett's instructions or that Liberty got too close to the Imperial blockade? (Yes, I realize "long range" and "too close" don't mix, but the perimeter could have been some distance from the actual Imperial fleet's position.)

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-10-25 11:45am

Stofsk wrote:Granted that they couldn't expect Vader, but Han's attitude to the Executor's presence shows he wasn't concerned about it. I think it's a plausible suggestion that Admiral Ackbar took in the possibility of contending with a fleet of Star Destroyers lead by a command ship.

Stofsk wrote:The surprise comes from how the Imperials were expecting them. The DS2's guns were armed and operational, and the defending fleet was arrayed in a pincer movement.

It's plausible that the Empire would have defences of some sort. As they also did. Not as much as a single Imperial ship was noticeable when the rebels jumped in to attack however, and not one of the rebels batted as much as an eyelid at the fact. Nor did they get any gunfire from DS2. They might have prepared for a worst case situation and brought everything they had, but they clearly didn't expect jack shit beyond the defensive shield.