Doomsday Machine (ST) vs. Star Destroyer (SW)

[rhoenix]

I was reading Stavro's fan fiction StarCrossed, and I began to wonder. How would a Doomsday Machine planet-eater ship from the original Star Trek series fare against the might of a Star Wars Imperial Star Destroyer?

The planet eater was purported to slice apart planets with an anti-proton beam (unknown yield), and have a neutronium hull, impenetrable to Star Trek (TOS) sensors.

The Star Destoyer is a Victory-II class Star Destroyer, lacking TIE fleets, but a multitude of turbolasers. Both become "aware" of one another when dropping out of hyperspace (the SD) and warp (the DM) from opposite sides of a 10 AU solar system, featuring a blue giant star.

[Darth Tanner]

If memory serves that device was destroyed by a massive explosion inside its mouth so to speak with the USS Constitution fly into it and detonating with 97.835 megatons of force according to this site

http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startr ... chine.html

So I see no difficulty assuming the turbolasers were ineffective against its hull that a Victory could simply launch a missile barrage into the mouth or simply do the same thing as the Trekers with a shuttle loaded with war heads on autopilot. I don't know the exact strength of Star Wars missile technology but I assume they could easily achieve this.

[Batman]

Not again...
The Doomsday Machine dies. End of story.

[rhoenix]

That bad, I see. Would it be sporting to take bets on how long it would take for the planet-eater to get smoked, though?

[General Zod]

That bad, I see. Would it be sporting to take bets on how long it would take for the planet-eater to get smoked, though?

As long as it takes the Star Destroyer commander to give the orders to open fire.

[fusion]

That bad, I see. Would it be sporting to take bets on how long it would take for the planet-eater to get smoked, though?

As long as it takes the Star Destroyer commander to give the orders to open fire.

Plus a second for the bolts to travel to the planet-eater.

[Darth Wong]

Seriously, even if we accept the premise that all energy weapons would be ineffective against its hull just because phasers were (a rather absurd hasty generalization fallacy), it wouldn't take a genius captain to say "OK, let's try shooting into the mouth".

[Stravo]

I just wanted to add that in Starcrossed I try to address this huge weakness in the vessel when stating out right that the reason why Kirk's trick worked in Doomsday machine episode is because the energy baffles in the mouth section were faulty or failing. It is still a weakness that can be exploited because the Doomsday machine is not a warship. It is an early attempt by the Sith to forge a Great Weapon, a precursor to the Deathstar. Plus I gave it shields in the story so that its invulnerable neutronium hull was not its sole line of defense. So in essence the Excalibur is a 'tweaked' Doomsday Machine.

But my fanfic aside its pretty obvious that the Doomsday machine would be destroyed fairly easily by Star Wars level vessels. Hence the tweaking.

[rhoenix]

Seriously, even if we accept the premise that all energy weapons would be ineffective against its hull just because phasers were (a rather absurd hasty generalization fallacy), it wouldn't take a genius captain to say "OK, let's try shooting into the mouth".

Well, I wasn't going to go as far as that. I can accept that the hull is invulnerable to Star Trek weaponry, based on short tests with TOS Star Trek technology, given the episode, but in my mind it wouldn't stand to reason that it would be invulnerable to all weapons.

Even without the gaping target of the mouth, I had estimated the armored hull of the DM to be strong, but about an order of magnitude below Star Wars-level armor technology, given the disparity in other areas.

The main purpose for the question was to see if the planet eater had been further quantified here, and it has - however, it was amusing to see that it would simply be a target.

I just wanted to add that in Starcrossed I try to address this huge weakness in the vessel when stating out right that the reason why Kirk's trick worked in Doomsday machine episode is because the energy baffles in the mouth section were faulty or failing. It is still a weakness that can be exploited because the Doomsday machine is not a warship. It is an early attempt by the Sith to forge a Great Weapon, a precursor to the Deathstar. Plus I gave it shields in the story so that its invulnerable neutronium hull was not its sole line of defense. So in essence the Excalibur is a 'tweaked' Doomsday Machine.

I did gather that much, since the original ship had neither shields nor a recognizable crew. However, I wanted to see if it had been quantified a bit more than what I had seen, given the amount of Star Wars / Star Trek scenarios in this forum alone.

But my fanfic aside its pretty obvious that the Doomsday machine would be destroyed fairly easily by Star Wars level vessels. Hence the tweaking.

Yes, hence the rather definitive responses I got earlier.

Thank you as well for your reply as well, Stravo - you did get me wondering about this.

[jegs2]

Stravo's version of the Doomsday device also assumed it was an ancient Sith weapon of mass destruction with little to no maneuverability. If the star destroyer was nice enough to remain in place in front of Stravo's DDD, while not opening fire and watching the pretty light show as the DDD fired up and then... well, you get the picture.

[Rihannsu Science Officer]

Stravo's version of the Doomsday device also assumed it was an ancient Sith weapon of mass destruction with little to no maneuverability. If the star destroyer was nice enough to remain in place in front of Stravo's DDD, while not opening fire and watching the pretty light show as the DDD fired up and then... well, you get the picture.

Some weapon of mass destruction... you know I love Trek and all, but its tech (especially Kirk's!) is way behind Voyager tech, let alone Old Republic tech. Now I don't know what they had in SW when that thing was built (probably sometime in the time of Xim the Despot, not that I have a lot of recollection of the SW EU, I seem to remember the DDD was 30,000 years old) but I think that some crappy fighter or two could have gotten in it and done a lot of damage. (Don't tell me they didn't have space travel back then.)

In short, anyone who thinks the DDD was made as a weapon of mass destruction is talking out their ass. I think it more likely that it was a means of sucking in godawful amounts of matter and compressing it as a means of making a black hole for energy generation.

[Darth Wong]

Let's face it, the Doomsday Machine never really did have a comprehensible backstory. The idea that they built it and then couldn't control it is retarded; they must have had the technology to shut it down if Kirk could do it with a 98 megaton explosion. It's incomprehensible as anything other than a contrived plot device.

[Darth Servo]

I think the novel Vendetta gave it some back story, not that novels are canon or anything. The race that built the thing was attacked and nearly exterminated by the borg. They built it and its big brother to destroy the collective and set the first one lose on a course for borg territory in the delta quad.

[Darth Wong]

I think the novel Vendetta gave it some back story, not that novels are canon or anything. The race that built the thing was attacked and nearly exterminated by the borg. They built it and its big brother to destroy the collective and set the first one lose on a course for borg territory in the delta quad.

From what I understand, that story was written in a truly imbecilic fashion, where successive Borg cubes actually "adapted" to the Doomsday Machine's attacks. This notion that Borg adaptation is like a D&D magic spell is really tiresome. It is technological, it must work better in some situations than others, and it can't have limitless capabilities.

In any case, the Borg should have been able to destroy it as well, if all it takes is a 98 megaton blast in its mouth.

[Ghost Rider]

I think the novel Vendetta gave it some back story, not that novels are canon or anything. The race that built the thing was attacked and nearly exterminated by the borg. They built it and its big brother to destroy the collective and set the first one lose on a course for borg territory in the delta quad.

From what I understand, that story was written in a truly imbecilic fashion, where successive Borg cubes actually "adapted" to the Doomsday Machine's attacks. This notion that Borg adaptation is like a D&D magic spell is really tiresome. It is technological, it must work better in some situations than others, and it can't have limitless capabilities.

In any case, the Borg should have been able to destroy it as well, if all it takes is a 98 megaton blast in its mouth.

The story was good, but that was in relation with other plot points....the technobabble was utter shit.

Literally the idea that the Borg adaption was "Energy hits Borg, Borg find blocking frequency."...even with the new and improved Doomsday Device. There were another few technobabblish things that really were bad as well....most related to the Borg.

[Sikon]

It must have originally been intended to have some combat survivability, or else the builders wouldn't have bothered with the neutronium hull. Perhaps it once had a shield and other active defenses around the maw, but those failed over the centuries, leaving only the passive defense of the neutronium hull.

[Patrick Degan]

The only "fact" regarding the doomsday machine's origin was Kirk's entirely blue-sky speculation on the matter, which really didn't say a whole lot about how it managed to survive its builders.

Of course, Norman Spinrad never meant to go into detail on the matter as his story really was Moby Dick in space, with Commodore Decker cast as Capt. Ahab and the machine being his object.

[brianeyci]

Maybe it wasn't a weapon at all. Maybe it was just a giant galactic wrecking ball and some Vogon forgot to set it off automatic during a lunch break.

[Norl]

Not again...
The Doomsday Machine dies. End of story.

Has anyone actually run the numbers?

Observation 1: If the Doomsday machine is neutronium, this is supposed to be solidly-packed neutrons, as in a neutron star, at something like 100 million tons per cubic centimeter.

Looking at Jeff Russel's Starship Dimensions, I am estimating the DM to be approximately 2700m long and 500m in diameter, roughly a cone.

Looking at an end-on shot, I estimate the wall thickness to be about 1/8 the total diameter. This gives a "hole" of 3/4 the outer diameter, or about 375m.

If we calculate the volume of the whole device as a cone, and subtract the hollow cone interior, we should get a volume of the hull.

From my calculations, I get:

Code: Select all

74.6 million cubic meters (interior hollow)
176.7 million cubic meters (device as a whole, solid cone)

Subtracting:

102.1 million cubic meters = volume of hull

Now multiply that by 100 million tons per cc, and you get 102.1 hexillion tons is the mass of the hull.

This is why ST's devices flailed away miserably at the hull -- their energy just was no way near enough to impart the energy necessary to cause such tremendous amounts of mass to separate. Their most powerful bombs would be far less to it than a puff of baby's breath would be to your arm.

The question is, if you bump up the energy spit out at the hull by a factor of 10, 100, 1000, or more, is it enough?


Observation 2: The planet killer was more than capable of carving up entire worlds. This puts it on a scale of a Death Star light in energy output. I highly doubt a star destroyer's shields could stand up to that.


Observation 3: I presume this "97 megatons" explosion comes from a book source or some other legitimate expanded universe-type source. I would like to point out how idiotic it is, though, to whatever author put those numbers down on paper first.

Starships are supposed to carry around what, several pounds of anti-matter? Maybe more? Stuff that explodes like a hydrogen bomb per gram?

Whatever else happened when the starship's "structural integrity" broke down, when that much antimatter goes up, it'll be more on the order of ten gigatons (think 1.1 gigatons per pound).

[Darth Wong]

Has anyone actually run the numbers?

Has anyone actually tried reading a science book?

Observation 1: If the Doomsday machine is neutronium, this is supposed to be solidly-packed neutrons, as in a neutron star, at something like 100 million tons per cubic centimeter.

If the Doomsday Machine is neutronium, then it should be liquid, and would reform into a sphere at relativistic speed.

Looking at Jeff Russel's Starship Dimensions, I am estimating the DM to be approximately 2700m long and 500m in diameter, roughly a cone.

Looking at an end-on shot, I estimate the wall thickness to be about 1/8 the total diameter. This gives a "hole" of 3/4 the outer diameter, or about 375m.

If we calculate the volume of the whole device as a cone, and subtract the hollow cone interior, we should get a volume of the hull.

From my calculations, I get:

Code: Select all

74.6 million cubic meters (interior hollow)
176.7 million cubic meters (device as a whole, solid cone)

Subtracting:

102.1 million cubic meters = volume of hull

Now multiply that by 100 million tons per cc, and you get 102.1 hexillion tons is the mass of the hull.

Here's a hint: calculations are only as good as the assumptions incorporated into them.

This is why ST's devices flailed away miserably at the hull -- their energy just was no way near enough to impart the energy necessary to cause such tremendous amounts of mass to separate. Their most powerful bombs would be far less to it than a puff of baby's breath would be to your arm.

The question is, if you bump up the energy spit out at the hull by a factor of 10, 100, 1000, or more, is it enough?

No, the question is: where do you get off referring to science for the density of neutron star matter while totally ignoring its nature?

Observation 2: The planet killer was more than capable of carving up entire worlds. This puts it on a scale of a Death Star light in energy output. I highly doubt a star destroyer's shields could stand up to that.

But it would take months to do so, rather than 1 second. More like "Death Star very light".

Observation 3: I presume this "97 megatons" explosion comes from a book source or some other legitimate expanded universe-type source. I would like to point out how idiotic it is, though, to whatever author put those numbers down on paper first.

It was stated by both Kirk and Spock onscreen. Obviously, you've never bothered watching the episode.

Starships are supposed to carry around what, several pounds of anti-matter? Maybe more? Stuff that explodes like a hydrogen bomb per gram?

Whatever else happened when the starship's "structural integrity" broke down, when that much antimatter goes up, it'll be more on the order of ten gigatons (think 1.1 gigatons per pound).

The wrecked ship had no antimatter left. Once again, it would help if you watched the episode before attempting to draw conclusions from it.

[Surlethe]

Observation 1: If the Doomsday machine is neutronium, this is supposed to be solidly-packed neutrons, as in a neutron star, at something like 100 million tons per cubic centimeter.

Back up there, buddy. Your assumption that the hull is pure neutronium leads to the conclusion that the Doomsday machine has a mass one third again greater than the Earth's. Doesn't that strike you as rather absurd?

[Norl]

Back up there, buddy. Your assumption that the hull is pure neutronium leads to the conclusion that the Doomsday machine has a mass one third again greater than the Earth's. Doesn't that strike you as rather absurd?

Yes, if that's where the numbers lead. Solid neutrons are tremendously dense.

And I wouldn't open the "absurdity" can of worms when talking about ST vs. SW. Isn't the idea of the Death Star pumping hundreds of millions, if not billions of tons of mass-converted-to-energy into a planet to induce it to explode at small relativistic speeds absurd?

How do you judge absurd, Surlethe?

If the Doomsday Machine is neutronium, then it should be liquid, and would reform into a sphere at relativistic speed.

In recent years, scientists have estimated that solid neutrons would not just behave like a liquid, but would probably not even hold together at smaller masses (where the self-generated gravity was not in extreme.) Are you suggesting there is no solution to containment?

In the novel Collapseum, this very issue is dealt with via a diamond cladding. One would presume whoever could amass such an amount of neutronium to create the DM could have solved the containment issue.

Do you question how the core of the Death Star could possibly contain the equivalent of many hundreds of million tons of mass, as energy, (or, alternatively, that the mass is converted to energy in an instant and pumped out via some mechanical method without destroying the equipment), or do you simply accept it?

[Darth Wong]

If the Doomsday Machine is neutronium, then it should be liquid, and would reform into a sphere at relativistic speed.

In recent years, scientists have estimated that solid neutrons would not just behave like a liquid, but would probably not even hold together at smaller masses (where the self-generated gravity was not in extreme.) Are you suggesting there is no solution to containment?

Correct. There is no solution to containment. If you feel there is a solution, explain it now.

In the novel Collapseum, this very issue is dealt with via a diamond cladding. One would presume whoever could amass such an amount of neutronium to create the DM could have solved the containment issue.

You're quoting novels as evidence now? Diamonds would be instantly shredded by the demands of reshaping neutronium, fool. And you don't seem to realize that the demands of creating and holding the Doomsday Machine together would make planetary destruction a trivial task by comparison, thus making one wonder why they couldn't find a more efficient way to do it. It's like saying that you built a ten mile high skyscraper in order to make a place to hang your X-Men poster.

Do you question how the core of the Death Star could possibly contain the equivalent of many hundreds of million tons of mass, as energy, (or, alternatively, that the mass is converted to energy in an instant and pumped out via some mechanical method without destroying the equipment), or do you simply accept it?

I accept it because there is no question that it destroyed Alderaan. The only evidence for the "neutronium" hull, on the other hand, is onscreen dialogue from the same incompetent fool who once said that the Enterprise was being bombarded by sonic weapons in space.

[Norl]

In the novel Collapseum, this very issue is dealt with via a diamond cladding. One would presume whoever could amass such an amount of neutronium to create the DM could have solved the containment issue.

You're quoting novels as evidence now? Diamonds would be instantly shredded by the demands of reshaping neutronium, fool.

The novel had this as a solution. I presume the author had done his homework. Observed problem: neutronium containment, and he presents a possible solution.

And you don't seem to realize that the demands of creating and holding the Doomsday Machine together would make planetary destruction a trivial task by comparison

It would, presuming a hellacious level of difficulty in creating such a hull, given what we now suspect is the actual science.

thus making one wonder why they couldn't find a more efficient way to do it. It's like saying that you built a ten mile high skyscraper in order to make a place to hang your X-Men poster.

Do you question how the core of the Death Star could possibly contain the equivalent of many hundreds of million tons of mass, as energy, (or, alternatively, that the mass is converted to energy in an instant and pumped out via some mechanical method without destroying the equipment), or do you simply accept it?

I accept it because there is no question that it destroyed Alderaan. The only evidence for the "neutronium" hull, on the other hand, is onscreen dialogue from the same incompetent fool who once said that the Enterprise was being bombarded by sonic weapons in space.[/quote]

The neutronium hull was presented as fait acompli. Modern science suggests it is idiotic. Modern science also suggests pumping the equivalent of many hundreds of millions of tons of matter, converted to pure energy, is also idiotic, since there is no known way in physics to contain or channel such energies. "Force fields", and so on, are just so much magic, as is the containment of the neutronium.

Both are presented as fact. Why accept one and not the other?

[Darth Wong]

Both are presented as fact. Why accept one and not the other?

Wrong. Only one of them is presented as fact. The other is presented as the opinion of an onscreen character.

And to deny the fluid nature of neutronium is utterly idiotic; you clearly do not understand that solidity is actually a special state of matter in the universe, and requires particular conditions to exist. We've done plenty of experiments on atomic nuclei to confirm that they do, in fact, conform to a fluid model.