10 Vista Activations

[Dominus Atheos]

Bit-Tech

Microsoft today talked to bit-tech in a bid to reassure the enthusiast community about the licensing terms of Windows Vista.

We previously read that Vista could prove to be a nightmare for enthusiasts who upgrade often, with only one transfer to a new machine allowed and with the license tied to a particular system configuration in a way that was far more limiting than Windows XP.

A Microsoft spokesman from the Licensing Dept told bit-tech that this would not be the case. He told us that Windows Vista will not require a system re-activation unless the hard drive and one other component is changed. This means that enthusiasts will be able to swap CPUs, memory and graphics cards out without any worry about having to re-activate with MS, either on the internet or by phone.

Should you change the hard drive and another piece of hardware - for example for a major upgrade such as a motherboard change that requires a re-installation - Microsoft will allow you to re-activate up to 10 times. You will not, however, be able to have more than one machine activated concurrently.

Should you wish to activate more than 10 times, you could be busted, or Microsoft could choose to let you activate again at its discretion.

Seems resonable to me. I generally only upgrade every other year, so this should last me 20 years.

[Glocksman]

The only legally binding terms are what's in the EULA.
A marketing drone's doublespeak isn't worth the paper it's not written on.

When it states in the EULA that I'm permitted to do 10 activations with differing configurations using the retail Vista (I understand why OEM versions can only be activated to a particular configuration), then I'll believe it.
Until then, it's just more bullshit from MS's marketing department.


Added: by 'particular configuration' I mean the heart of the system it shipped with has to remain the same.

In other words, I can't buy a Dell with XP or Vista, replace everything except the case, and expect the Dell OEM license to still be valid when the machine is no longer a Dell.
What's interesting is that the XP OEM installs the 'big boys' use are BIOS locked to that particular manufacturer.
In other words, I can replace every element on a Dell, Gateway, or HP machine, except the motherboard, and still not worry about WPA.
The instant I replace the mobo, even if every other element remains the same, WPA kicks in and going by personal experience, MS will not (in the US anyway) let you reactivate an OEM copy of XP on a mobo from a different manufacturer.

I can reuse the Dell OEM license if I replace a Dell mobo with another Dell mobo, but if I use a third party motherboard, I'm SOL.

[bilateralrope]

The only legally binding terms are what's in the EULA.

I'm not sure that many people will care if they are breaking the EULA or not, especially if local laws overide parts of it. What people will care about is what the vista software will allow them to do or not, even if that has no relation whatsoever to whats in the EULA.

[CelesKnight]

To quote myself from this thread, "If I can't trust the paraphrasing of an unnamed Microsoft spokesman on a foreign Internet site I've never heard of before, who can I trust?"

I think it's very good news, but personally I'm hoping MS does further clarifications. (Clarifies the clarification of the original clarification). Until I see real quotes from MS officials, or better yet, a written explanation on MSs website, I'm still rather nervous about what MSs plans are.

[Lagmonster]

My theory on Microsoft is that they will always irritate, annoy, and screw up to a degree not just short of consumer rebellion, but comfortable distanced from it, and the hordes of business folk and PC gamers will shrug, reboot, and move on.

[Molyneux]

My theory on Microsoft is that they will always irritate, annoy, and screw up to a degree not just short of consumer rebellion, but comfortable distanced from it, and the hordes of business folk and PC gamers will shrug, reboot, and move on.

Eh....this particular customer's rebelling. The bullshit with the "Windows Genuine Advantage Validation Tool" has been enough to make me swear off Windows systems for good; the next computer I get is going to run Linux.

[Lagmonster]

Eh....this particular customer's rebelling. The bullshit with the "Windows Genuine Advantage Validation Tool" has been enough to make me swear off Windows systems for good; the next computer I get is going to run Linux.

So, you're neither a big business nor a hardcore PC gamer, what?

As much as their marketing department says otherwise, anyone with a functioning brain can realize that Microsoft doesn't make software for people who like computers; they make software for people who like the things computers can do.

A good analogy would be a guy who loves cars, and buys the car that is engineered the way he wants - the best engine, chassis, and other various parts, so that it is a beautiful and enviable machine even only on paper, versus a soccer mom who also loves cars - but only inasmuch as they look nice, are comfy, have a keen CD player and a big cup holder, carry all her groceries, and keep her and her kids safe. So he buys a custom kit and builds it himself and tunes and cleans it every day, whereas she buys an SUV with much hand waving towards its well-publicized downsides and gets her mechanic to look at it on the few occasions it breaks. And he keeps his car for a decade in mint condition, whereas she trades her SUV in for a new one in five years when her warranty runs out.

[Tolya]

The most annoying thing I find is their goddamn newspeak.

Like the titles they invent for their half-assed services.

"Advantage Validation Tool"? What's so fucking advantageous in it? How about "Annoying Validation Tool"?. It makes much more sense now.

Sheesh, I hate the corporate titles that the marketing drones invent to cover up shitty content.

[Xon]

Hey they increased the number of activations before you need to phone Microsoft in Vista compared to Windows XP.

WinXP only allows 3 activations before you need to start phoning and conning someone to give you another valid key/activation code(power surge killing stuff is a great excuse)

[CelesKnight]

Hey they increased the number of activations before you need to phone Microsoft in Vista compared to Windows XP.

WinXP only allows 3 activations before you need to start phoning and conning someone to give you another valid key/activation code(power surge killing stuff is a great excuse)

Source? I've gone through way more than three large-scale hardware changes and never had to call in.

[RThurmont]

The problem is that Microsoft's marketing people just don't get it. I was just at the Design Management Institute conference in Vermont, and talked to a lady who had worked with several of the UI designers on XP. The decision to allow only Microsoft-signed modifications to the XP desktop was intended to convey a consistent brand image whenever someone looked at a Windows machine, but it didn't occur to them that their broader brand equity was actually -hurt- , as a result of denying power users the ability to easily customize their GUI.

It's this sort of two-dimensional thinking which is Microsoft's biggest problem. I maintain that if Ballmer really wants to ensure that Microsoft remains a force to be reckoned with in the years ahead, he just needs to go ahead and fire everyone, and then start from scratch. Except the Office and TabletPC developers. Those guys are just too awesome to complain about.

[Darth Wong]

Microsoft has simply figured out the same thing that the only computer store in a small town has figured out: you can get away with giving the customer a raw deal if you're the only damned store in town. Linux is a good alternative operating system in terms of its technical merits, but without the software and hardware developer support that Microsoft enjoys, it will never be a full-fledged replacement for Windows; it can only replace it in niche applications. And I say this as a loyal long-time linux user.

If there were more Linux DVD ripping and authoring applications (it's ironic that most of the existing ones are for Windows) and Linux versions of many popular games, I'd drop Windows like a bad habit, at least on most of my machines.

[RThurmont]

In the short term, the question is whether or not WINE and Cedega can be improved. For whatever reason, vendors of killer apps, such as Adobe and Electronic Arts, just don't want to support to Linux, creating the Windows/Mac duopoly. Longer-term, the trend towards web-based applications could potentially make the desktop operating system irrelevant, unless Microsoft finds a way to interfere with some BS proprietary standard, which will likely occur.

[Darth Wong]

Another problem with web-based applications is the psychological factor. People don't like the idea of being beholden to some distant server in order to do things on their own computers. They like the idea of owning the computer, owning a copy of the software (even if they technically don't, thanks to the EULA, it feels like they own it), etc.

It's one of the big reasons people continue to buy billions of dollars of DVD movies even though the hardware and software necessary to rent and then pirate-copy them is so widespread that any 12 year old can do it. I legally own hundreds of DVDs even though I have the capability to circumvent copy-protection and pirate DVDs whenever I want. Hell, I have six PCs at my disposal, four of which have DVD burners in them. And it's not as if the necessary software tools weren't widely distributed.

When people buy something, they want to feel like they own it. It's human nature.

People with Internet connections of variable speed or quality would have even more reasons to object to web-based applications. I find that the best market for web-based applications is corporate intranets and VPNs, not the broader Internet. They're great for a corporate network, because you can tie together all your computers with custom-written web-based applications that run on your own servers and are under your control.

[Xon]

In the short term, the question is whether or not WINE and Cedega can be improved.

By thier very nature these projects will always be playing catch up, always second fiddle, always buggier/slower/incomplete/worse.

It is simply the nature of what they are attempting todo.

Microsoft has simply figured out the same thing that the only computer store in a small town has figured out: you can get away with giving the customer a raw deal if you're the only damned store in town.

The hilarious thing is the price of standard Windows for the consumer has decreased due to inflation and the price being fixed from version to version. The reason they can get away with that is the profitibility of thier cash cows has increased due to the trivial duplication costs for the end product.

A very large chuck of how Microsoft got where they are today is due to the stupidity of others. Being able to learn from other people's terminal braindead mistakes and learning from your own mistakes is something not enough people do.

Linux is a good alternative operating system in terms of its technical merits, but without the software and hardware developer support that Microsoft enjoys, it will never be a full-fledged replacement for Windows;

Microsoft makes some of the best software development tools/enviroment in the software industry. vi/vim just doesnt cut it for largescale programming work.

it can only replace it in niche applications. And I say this as a loyal long-time linux user.

You probably arent very suprised at the large number of morons who dont understant that.

[Darth Wong]

The hilarious thing is the price of standard Windows for the consumer has decreased due to inflation and the price being fixed from version to version.

Inflation in the computer world is a peculiar concept, because computer prices tend to have negative inflation. Look at the cost of a typical budget desktop computer today and look at the price of a typical budget desktop computer 10 years ago, even disregarding the performance advantages of the modern machine.

But what certain corporations are increasingly doing lately is telling consumers what they can and can't do with their own computers. This is definitely a raw deal at any price, and I'd like to see legislators doing something about it.

[Glocksman]

The only legally binding terms are what's in the EULA.

I'm not sure that many people will care if they are breaking the EULA or not, especially if local laws overide parts of it. What people will care about is what the vista software will allow them to do or not, even if that has no relation whatsoever to whats in the EULA.

That's my point.
The MS drone is saying that despite the EULA, which allows 'upgrade' reinstalls only once and WPA, which gives them the ability to enforce the EULA, they'll let you reactivate 10 times.

Guess which statement is legally enforceable and which one is not?
If you're not in the USA, the Vista EULA may actually be illegal.

But here it's enforceable, and they can and do refuse to activate OEM installs under certain circumstances such as replacing a Dell mobo with an Asus or Gigabyte motherboard, as their policy is that the license died with the motherboard it was originally installed on.

I'll live with that if I buy an OEM copy, but I'll be damned if I'll live with that one time upgrade restriction on a fucking retail copy that costs much more $$$ than the OEM.

A friend of mine thinks that the licensing changes are MS's way of paving an eventual path towards a subscription model of OS licensing.

[Kane Starkiller]

Wait a second we get only 10 re-installations? But what happens if I have to format the disk? So I get 10 formats? I mean I don't go around formatting the disk every other week but still this is ridiculous.

[Molyneux]

Wait a second we get only 10 re-installations? But what happens if I have to format the disk? So I get 10 formats? I mean I don't go around formatting the disk every other week but still this is ridiculous.

You're really supposed, from what I've heard, to reformat the HD every year or so to clean out junk files...so this essentially gives you a 10-year limit on Vista, barring accidents and such.

Given that in 10 years Microsoft is unlikely to still be selling Vista licenses and will likely have another PoS operating system for ~$300, this seems rather a raw deal if you're still using the same system in a decade.

[Xon]

Source? I've gone through way more than three large-scale hardware changes and never had to call in.

Experiance + tips from forums for actual Windows admins and developers.

With OEM/retail copies you are allowed 3 activation attempts via the online/dialin system in about 6 months before you need to talk to someone at Microsoft. When you activate a copy of Windows, the product key and the hardware hash are stored somewhere at Microsoft. After a time, they decrease number of times a hardware hash has been associated with a product key.

I bet Microsoft has a way of generating statistics from all those hardware hashes to describe the general state of computers running windows.

Wait a second we get only 10 re-installations? But what happens if I have to format the disk? So I get 10 formats? I mean I don't go around formatting the disk every other week but still this is ridiculous.

If you need to reformat a computer 10 times in it's lifespan either the hardware is junk or the end user is hopeless.

All those 10 activations are done, it just means you need to phone Microsoft parrot a hardware hash ID and explain why you need another copy (aka hardware failure or a user failing thier int check and installing malware) and then they give you an activation code or a brand spanking new product key.

You're really supposed, from what I've heard, to reformat the HD every year or so to clean out junk files...so this essentially gives you a 10-year limit on Vista, barring accidents and such.

This is bullshit plain and simple.

Only if you are running Windows 9x do you need todo shit like that.

[Netko]

On the one hand, 10 years ago most of us were using Win95 with some 3.11, possibly NT if a company. I honestly pity someone still using those systems today.

On the other hand, the usefulness of software time-wise is increasing recently, see XP for an example.

However, I would dispute the 1 year reinstall thing. Its only really needed if you absolutely must have that final 1% of performance on XP. I for one never reinstalled XP until something got borked, which usually took more then a year (I think this install for example is at least 2 years old). Win98 and the rest of the 9x line are another story of course.

All in all, I think this activation crap will turn out to be a tempest in a teapot, at least I hope. Despite me despising activation as a concept, I honestly can't see MS fucking over customers who legally bought the product, whatever the EULA states. At worst, you'll have to call them by phone. I hope I don't get proven wrong.

[McNum]

With OEM/retail copies you are allowed 3 activation attempts via the online/dialin system in about 6 months before you need to talk to someone at Microsoft. When you activate a copy of Windows, the product key and the hardware hash are stored somewhere at Microsoft. After a time, they decrease number of times a hardware hash has been associated with a product key.

I bet Microsoft has a way of generating statistics from all those hardware hashes to describe the general state of computers running windows.

Do I understand it right that you get three activations of one copy of WinXP for the first 6 months of its life? And after an unspecified amount of time you get the activations you have used back, so to speak.

So if I were to reinstall say every two years or so, I'd be prefectly in the clear if, for some reason, I need to reinstall in a hurry?

And for Vista those three have become ten, but with no regeneration of used activations? If that's so, then I'm ok with it. Not overly happy since it's an additional step in installation, but ok.

[Glocksman]

With OEM/retail copies you are allowed 3 activation attempts via the online/dialin system in about 6 months before you need to talk to someone at Microsoft. When you activate a copy of Windows, the product key and the hardware hash are stored somewhere at Microsoft. After a time, they decrease number of times a hardware hash has been associated with a product key.

I bet Microsoft has a way of generating statistics from all those hardware hashes to describe the general state of computers running windows.

Do I understand it right that you get three activations of one copy of WinXP for the first 6 months of its life? And after an unspecified amount of time you get the activations you have used back, so to speak.

So if I were to reinstall say every two years or so, I'd be prefectly in the clear if, for some reason, I need to reinstall in a hurry?

And for Vista those three have become ten, but with no regeneration of used activations? If that's so, then I'm ok with it. Not overly happy since it's an additional step in installation, but ok.

It'll vary from country to country, and in your case the EU might not let MS get by with what they get away with here in the US WRT activation and licensing.

And like I said earlier, an unwritten statement from some MS marketing drone regarding licensing isn't worth the paper its not written on.
If MS really wants to permit you to reactivate Vista after 10 machine upgrades, all they have to do is change the EULA to reflect that.

[McNum]

It'll vary from country to country, and in your case the EU might not let MS get by with what they get away with here in the US WRT activation and licensing.

And like I said earlier, an unwritten statement from some MS marketing drone regarding licensing isn't worth the paper its not written on.
If MS really wants to permit you to reactivate Vista after 10 machine upgrades, all they have to do is change the EULA to reflect that.

Hmm... I used a phone-in last time and it was automated here in Denmark. Type in serial on phone keys, get activation code. I wonder if activation codes are reusable if you reinstall to the same PC? I kept the one I got, just in case.

[Darth Wong]

If you buy several PCs with the exact same type of hardware, will XP activation know the difference?