the one ring as a weapon?

[Next of Kin]

Yes, but exactly how did it bring them this wealth?

The dwarves began to delve greedily in their mines searching for more and more gold, silver, gems, and mithril. The dwarven rings were the centre pieces of their horded treasure.

[Morning Star]

Yes, but exactly how did it bring them this wealth?

The Seven: Those of the Rings of Power that Sauron gave to the Dwarves to seduce them to his service. The Dwarves proved too hardy to be lured in this way, though, and the Rings did little more than increase their native lust for gold. By the end of the Third Age, Sauron had recovered three of the Seven Rings to himself, and the other four had been consumed by dragons.

Their rings kept them immortal? Does that mean that without the rings they age?

The Elves are immortal by nature, only dying through battle or grief. The Three were named: Nenya, Narya and Vilya; the only three of the Rings of Power to be made wholly outside the influence of Sauron. Their power maintained the realms of the Elves in Middle-earth until the destruction of the Ruling Ring.

Yes, but precisely how did it allow them to rule over others? Did it give them mind control? Superior military acumen?

Not mind control as you understand it. If you have seen or read TTT, it is like how Grima could persuade King Theoden to Saruman's will. Not exactly mind control, the Nine helped the Nazgul to dominate the will of men... although their will was dominated by Sauron's One.

They were also taken to the wraith world: ghosts who could see things others could not and live forever, their wraith weapons could trasport others into their plain to be used as slaves.

By "take the wearer to the wraith-world", do you mean "make him invisible?" And what about dominating others? If Sauron had the power to mind-control everyone with his ring, then how could the elves and humans form an army and fight him in the distant past?

The greatest of the Rings of Power, forged secretly by Sauron in the fires of Orodruin. The Ring not only transported the wearer into the Wraith-world, making him invisible to those in the real world, but also granted virtual immortality and mastery over the nineteen Great Rings, and all other magical Rings forged in Eregion in the middle of the Second Age. No one could use the One except for Sauron... as he made it with much of his own power.

[Durandal]

One VERY potent power than no one has mentioned is that anything built or created by the one ring CANNOT BE DESTROYED. Thats pretty damned powerful.

The Nazgul were corrupoted by the One ring and became neither living nor dead, they coul not be destroyed as long as the one ring and existed they existed (save for the Wirch King of Angmar because of that special curse placed on him)

The tower of Bardur was leveled by the Last Alliance of Men and Elves but it could not be utterly destroyed, it was raised again by Sauron using his power.

Of course, there is the one major drawback. Once the One Ring is destroyed, anything built with it fades away as well, hence the utter destruction of Mordor after the destruction of the Ring.

The other rings stop working, as well. That's why the Elves were in such a hurry to leave. Once the One Ring is destroyed, all their stuff goes bye-bye.

I'm still a little unclear as to why the Ring is such a huge threat. If Sauron gets it back, all you have to do is cut his hand off again. The Ring doesn't give its wearer a personal force field or protection from physical harm, and it certainly doesn't grant him any kind of military industrial might, since he rebuilt Barad-Dur without it, and he also bred Orcs without it. It's very plausible that Sauron could have successfully taken over Middle Earth had he not devoted so many resources to finding the Ring.

[Next of Kin]

If Sauron gets it back, all you have to do is cut his hand off again.

It is rather unlikely that such a large alliance could be formed of men, elves, and heroes to march to the slopes of Mount Doom and call out Sauron in his front yard and challenge him to a duel. it took an enchanted sword to chop the finger off not some rusty butter knife.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm still a little unclear as to why the Ring is such a huge threat. If Sauron gets it back, all you have to do is cut his hand off again. The Ring doesn't give its wearer a personal force field or protection from physical harm, and it certainly doesn't grant him any kind of military industrial might, since he rebuilt Barad-Dur without it, and he also bred Orcs without it. It's very plausible that Sauron could have successfully taken over Middle Earth had he not devoted so many resources to finding the Ring.

I'm presuming that if he got it the next time, Sauron would not be dumb enough to walk out into the middle of a battlefield like he did the first time

[Morning Star]

I'm still a little unclear as to why the Ring is such a huge threat. If Sauron gets it back, all you have to do is cut his hand off again. The Ring doesn't give its wearer a personal force field or protection from physical harm, and it certainly doesn't grant him any kind of military industrial might, since he rebuilt Barad-Dur without it, and he also bred Orcs without it. It's very plausible that Sauron could have successfully taken over Middle Earth had he not devoted so many resources to finding the Ring.

Because no matter what Sauron had by way of military might, as long as the One existed he was vulnerable. Plus when he re-built Barad-dur he used just as much of his own personnal power as Orccish man-power. And considering most of his power was poured into the One when it was forged, his own personal strength would have become unimaginable if he was re-united with it. Plus the three would have not of been able to help the Elves, as they would have been bent to his will. If the Enemy had recaptured it, he would have had entire control over the nineteen and all other eregion rings. His shadow would have consumed the earth. Remember, Middle-earth had significantly declined since the time of the Last Alliance, the men of Numenor were all but gone and most elves had returned to Valinor. None would have been able to stop him.

[Durandal]

I'm still a little unclear as to why the Ring is such a huge threat. If Sauron gets it back, all you have to do is cut his hand off again. The Ring doesn't give its wearer a personal force field or protection from physical harm, and it certainly doesn't grant him any kind of military industrial might, since he rebuilt Barad-Dur without it, and he also bred Orcs without it. It's very plausible that Sauron could have successfully taken over Middle Earth had he not devoted so many resources to finding the Ring.

I'm presuming that if he got it the next time, Sauron would not be dumb enough to walk out into the middle of a battlefield like he did the first time

According to the film, the army of Men and Elves was kicking the Orc army's ass until Sauron showed up. If he doesn't stride out on to the battlefield again, he'll likely lose the battle.

It is rather unlikely that such a large alliance could be formed of men, elves, and heroes to march to the slopes of Mount Doom and call out Sauron in his front yard and challenge him to a duel. it took an enchanted sword to chop the finger off not some rusty butter knife. icon_wink.gif

Aragorn has Anduril, surely he could do it, or Gandalf.

[Morning Star]

I'm still a little unclear as to why the Ring is such a huge threat. If Sauron gets it back, all you have to do is cut his hand off again. The Ring doesn't give its wearer a personal force field or protection from physical harm, and it certainly doesn't grant him any kind of military industrial might, since he rebuilt Barad-Dur without it, and he also bred Orcs without it. It's very plausible that Sauron could have successfully taken over Middle Earth had he not devoted so many resources to finding the Ring.

I'm presuming that if he got it the next time, Sauron would not be dumb enough to walk out into the middle of a battlefield like he did the first time

In the book, he didn't at first. He withstood a seven year seige and sent out armies and used missiles to try to break it, but all failed. As his power was failing, he marched out of Barad-dur and challenged Elendil and Gil-galad to a combat. He slayed the Elven High-king, but Elendil the Tall mrtally wouded him, in his last moment Sauron fell upon him and the heat of his body killed him. Ilsildur cut the ring from him after his spirit fled.

[Durandal]

Because no matter what Sauron had by way of military might, as long as the One existed he was vulnerable.

So? Just concentrate efforts on keeping people out of Mordor, or cave in Mount Doom, where it was forged, so no one can get to it, instead of wasting resources searching for the Ring.

Plus when he re-built Barad-dur he used just as much of his own personnal power as Orccish man-power. And considering most of his power was poured into the One when it was forged, his own personal strength would have become unimaginable if he was re-united with it.

What exactly does Sauron accomplish with the Ring that was impossible without the Ring, let's put it that way.

Plus the three would have not of been able to help the Elves, as they would have been bent to his will. If the Enemy had recaptured it, he would have had entire control over the nineteen and all other eregion rings.

Yes, but what did he do with all this control when he had it? It all came down to one fight, and he was losing from the very beginning of it.

His shadow would have consumed the earth. Remember, Middle-earth had significantly declined since the time of the Last Alliance, the men of Numenor were all but gone and most elves had returned to Valinor. None would have been able to stop him.

That is true, but it raises the question of why Sauron couldn't simply have ignored the Ring initially. If his enemies' power was so weakened, and he had "regained much of his former strength," according to Sarumon, then he should have been able to steamroll Middle Earth with what he had.

[Darth Wong]

In the book, he didn't at first. He withstood a seven year seige and sent out armies and used missiles to try to break it, but all failed. As his power was failing, he marched out of Barad-dur and challenged Elendil and Gil-galad to a combat. He slayed the Elven High-king, but Elendil the Tall mrtally wouded him, in his last moment Sauron fell upon him and the heat of his body killed him. Ilsildur cut the ring from him after his spirit fled.

If his power was failing from a siege, why is he considered such a scary guy? All of this "his power would have been unimaginable" stuff seems pretty dicey to me; he could command great hordes of orcs, sway people to become his slaves, and was certainly stronger than an average Joe, but this doesn't mean he had particle shielding in his chest or a turbolaser in his dick.

And why wouldn't an ordinary sword hurt him? All of this "he's a maiar" stuff sounds pretty dicey too. Gandalf and Saruman can be killed by ordinary swords; why not Sauron? Sure, an enchanted sword is harder than an ordinary sword, doesn't lose its edge, etc., but it's not a lightsabre; it doesn't employ any magical or super-powered methods for penetrating its foe. If you dropped a 40-ton block of non-enchanted steel on Sauron's head, I'm sure it would kill him. You might argue that he'd come back in another form, but that would undoubtedly weaken him, particularly since he'd be separated from the ring again.

[Morning Star]

In the book, he didn't at first. He withstood a seven year seige and sent out armies and used missiles to try to break it, but all failed. As his power was failing, he marched out of Barad-dur and challenged Elendil and Gil-galad to a combat. He slayed the Elven High-king, but Elendil the Tall mrtally wouded him, in his last moment Sauron fell upon him and the heat of his body killed him. Ilsildur cut the ring from him after his spirit fled.

If his power was failing from a siege, why is he considered such a scary guy? All of this "his power would have been unimaginable" stuff seems pretty dicey to me; he could command great hordes of orcs, sway people to become his slaves, and was certainly stronger than an average Joe, but this doesn't mean he had particle shielding in his chest or a turbolaser in his dick.

And why wouldn't an ordinary sword hurt him? All of this "he's a maiar" stuff sounds pretty dicey too. Gandalf and Saruman can be killed by ordinary swords; why not Sauron? Sure, an enchanted sword is harder than an ordinary sword, doesn't lose its edge, etc., but it's not a lightsabre; it doesn't employ any magical or super-powered methods for penetrating its foe. If you dropped a 40-ton block of non-enchanted steel on Sauron's head, I'm sure it would kill him. You might argue that he'd come back in another form, but that would undoubtedly weaken him, particularly since he'd be separated from the ring again.

Because the Elves of that time were vertual demi-gods and men were of higher stock too. Eru Iluvatar is the God of the world, the Valar Gods/Angels and the maiar Angels of a lesser decree. When the human Island of Numenor was sunk beneath the waves, Sauron died, when he fought the High-king and The Tall, he died, as do Saruman and Gandalf at certain times. But that was merely a shell of theirsleves. that is why Sauron returned twice, and more powerful and why Gandalf returned more powerful, because what they are is more than what can be undertsood by mortals. Saruman didn't return because the Valar blew his spirit into the West and Gandalf broke his power.

What I'm saying is you could kill them a million times and they would return, but at the time of LotR, no one on ME is powerful enough to do so. When Sauron forged the one he poured much of his power into it: making himself less but enhancing that which was put into the great One. So when he wore it, he was even more powerful than before, plus he could use the other ring bearers as pawns.

So? Just concentrate efforts on keeping people out of Mordor, or cave in Mount Doom, where it was forged, so no one can get to it, instead of wasting resources searching for the Ring.

He did that too. You have to remember that at the end of the RotK, the Captains of the West failed to breach the Western Gate and Saruman's strength faltered and became naught. If it had not been for the One's demise, Sauron would have conqured Middle earth as there were none left to stop him.

What exactly does Sauron accomplish with the Ring that was impossible without the Ring, let's put it that way.

He regained his former power that was put into it, only even more so. His presence could destroy the will of all except the greatest and wisest. He could bend all the Rings of Power and the other Rings of eregion to his will. He could build entire fortresses through sheer might of will. He could orrupt the Elves, and send forth a darkness a hundred time more powerful than that seen during the war of the Ring. He could cloud the judgement of the wise and rival the stregth even Numenor in its time. He would have finally gained his wish: to be King of Kings and a Gods unto men. Usual stuff.

Yes, but what did he do with all this control when he had it? It all came down to one fight, and he was losing from the very beginning of it.

The War of the Ring? You forget, we won the war of might. The only reason he lost was because the One was sent into the pits of Orodruim. thus validating the reason he sought to return it to his finger in the first place.

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 6:22 am Post subject:

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Morning Star wrote:
Because no matter what Sauron had by way of military might, as long as the One existed he was vulnerable.


So? Just concentrate efforts on keeping people out of Mordor, or cave in Mount Doom, where it was forged, so no one can get to it, instead of wasting resources searching for the Ring.

Quote:
Plus when he re-built Barad-dur he used just as much of his own personnal power as Orccish man-power. And considering most of his power was poured into the One when it was forged, his own personal strength would have become unimaginable if he was re-united with it.


What exactly does Sauron accomplish with the Ring that was impossible without the Ring, let's put it that way.

Quote:
Plus the three would have not of been able to help the Elves, as they would have been bent to his will. If the Enemy had recaptured it, he would have had entire control over the nineteen and all other eregion rings.


Yes, but what did he do with all this control when he had it? It all came down to one fight, and he was losing from the very beginning of it.

Quote:
His shadow would have consumed the earth. Remember, Middle-earth had significantly declined since the time of the Last Alliance, the men of Numenor were all but gone and most elves had returned to Valinor. None would have been able to stop him.


That is true, but it raises the question of why Sauron couldn't simply have ignored the Ring initially. If his enemies' power was so weakened, and he had "regained much of his former strength," according to Sarumon, then he should have been able to steamroll Middle Earth with what he had

Yes he could, and would have done so after the Battle of the Pelannor fields. But the ring was cast down...yadda yadda yadda, and he was beat. Therefore you see his reasons for trying to claim it in the first place.

[Darth Wong]

Because the Elves of that time were vertual demi-gods and men were of higher stock too.

Based on what? Were they taller, stronger, faster? If so, how much?

What I'm saying is you could kill them a million times and they would return, but at the time of LotR, no one on ME is powerful enough to do so.

How do you know their ability to return is limitless? And how do you know that they are any stronger in a tangible sense, since Gandalf is physically no stronger or faster than before? Sure, he's better at handling Saruman, but that doesn't mean he'll shrug off a dagger in his gut. It only means they get better at dealing with each other, not the physical world of men or their weapons.

What exactly does Sauron accomplish with the Ring that was impossible without the Ring, let's put it that way.

He regained his former power that was put into it, only even more so. His presence could destroy the will of all except the greatest and wisest. He could bend all the Rings of Power and the other Rings of eregion to his will. He could build entire fortresses through sheer might of will. He could orrupt the Elves, and send forth a darkness a hundred time more powerful than that seen during the war of the Ring. He could cloud the judgement of the wise and rival the stregth even Numenor in its time. He would have finally gained his wish: to be King of Kings and a Gods unto men. Usual stuff.

You didn't answer the question. Damien asked what he could do with the Ring that he couldn't do without it. He could corrupt people? He was doing that without the ring (note: Saruman). He could build a fortress? He could do that without the ring (hell, we can do that with bulldozers and cranes). The rest is just flowery hyperbole.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The One Rings purpose is a simple one. Plot device. There would be no fellowships, no great adventure, no being chased by the nazgul, no great battle at helms deep, none of that shit. Because from what I'm hearing Sauron can do anything without the Ring that he can do with it.

[Durandal]

Basically, during the time of LotR, Sauron didn't really require the Ring to take over. Like I said, he could have simply caved Mount Doom in, preventing anyone from going in. Frodo could have walked into Mordor with a machine gun and he still wouldn't be able to destroy the Ring if he wasn't able to get to the fires of Mount Doom. With such a security measure in place, Sauron would be free to trample Middle Earth, dealing with the matter of the Ring at his leisure.

[Morning Star]

Based on what? Were they taller, stronger, faster? If so, how much?

They were stronger, faster (what has taller got to do with it?) more wise. Their magics were stronger as well. Elves were powerful enough to deafeat Balrogs. Remember that even then, men were still lesser, and yet at that time a man could fight Morgoth. All life was of greater power at that time as they were closer to the gods.

How do you know their ability to return is limitless? And how do you know that they are any stronger in a tangible sense, since Gandalf is physically no stronger or faster than before? Sure, he's better at handling Saruman, but that doesn't mean he'll shrug off a dagger in his gut. It only means they get better at dealing with each other, not the physical world of men or their weapons.

Because they are immortal like the Elves, except when they die, they return not to the Halls of Mandos, but their spirits remain in the worlds. Able to return to Arda or leave back out into the void.

You didn't answer the question. Damien asked what he could do with the Ring that he couldn't do without it. He could corrupt people? He was doing that without the ring (note: Saruman). He could build a fortress? He could do that without the ring (hell, we can do that with bulldozers and cranes). The rest is just flowery hyperbole.

The point of the One was to enhance the user's own powers, Sauron was the mightiest of Maiar in the beginning, but The One made him greater still. Also, hyperbole kicks ass; but those were his powers at the beginning. And yes, when they returned, Istari and Maiar had to remake themselves whcih took time, but time had no meaning for them.

ps. What are we actually debating? We seem to have changed subject quite a few times.

[Morning Star]

Basically, during the time of LotR, Sauron didn't really require the Ring to take over. Like I said, he could have simply caved Mount Doom in, preventing anyone from going in. Frodo could have walked into Mordor with a machine gun and he still wouldn't be able to destroy the Ring if he wasn't able to get to the fires of Mount Doom. With such a security measure in place, Sauron would be free to trample Middle Earth, dealing with the matter of the Ring at his leisure.

He could not have closed Mt. Doom, his power was not that strong without the One, (at that time) he was still ammassing his forces. He was still moving slowly except he was forced to move quickly when he knew not of Saruman and the One.

But yes, he probably could have taken ME using natural forces, but the One was like a part of him and so he forever lusted after it. Its power was so great that even he (especially him, IMO) need to have it with him or he would be driven insane...more so.

The One Rings purpose is a simple one. Plot device. There would be no fellowships, no great adventure, no being chased by the nazgul, no great battle at helms deep, none of that shit. Because from what I'm hearing Sauron can do anything without the Ring that he can do with it.

Why didn't I think of that. I think that's probably the most reasonable answer to either side yet. Shame that we are all living in a fantasy world were the fairies rule the world and sci fi is real, so I'm gonna have to ignore that and crawl back under my rock.

[Darth Wong]

They were stronger, faster (what has taller got to do with it?) more wise. Their magics were stronger as well. Elves were powerful enough to deafeat Balrogs. Remember that even then, men were still lesser, and yet at that time a man could fight Morgoth. All life was of greater power at that time as they were closer to the gods.

You're not answering the question. How much greater? With what weapon did the elves defeat the Balrog, and how does it indicate how much stronger they were? For all we know, a simple lucky stab could defeat a Balrog. Same goes for Morgoth.

Because they are immortal like the Elves, except when they die, they return not to the Halls of Mandos, but their spirits remain in the worlds. Able to return to Arda or leave back out into the void.

That doesn't answer my question. How do you know there are no limits to their ability to return? Sure, we know they can do it, but if takes anything out of them at all, they can't do it an infinite number of times.

You didn't answer the question. Damien asked what he could do with the Ring that he couldn't do without it ...

The point of the One was to enhance the user's own powers ...

In other words, he can't do anything with the Ring that he couldn't do without it. All it does is exaggerate him.

And yes, when they returned, Istari and Maiar had to remake themselves whcih took time, but time had no meaning for them.

Time may have no meaning for them, but if Sauron is gone and takes weeks, months, or years to come back, it does have meaning for the orcs and men who will be fighting over the lands. Suppose you kill him and wipe out his armies, flatten his fortresses, knock down his towers before he returns? When he comes back, what'll he do? Become a really grumpy version of Gandalf, wandering around pissing people off?

ps. What are we actually debating? We seem to have changed subject quite a few times.

We're debating the power of the Ring. It was asked "can it be used as a weapon" (that's already been answered "no"), and now, we've segued into "how important was it in terms of ME conquest".

[Durandal]

The point of the One was to enhance the user's own powers, Sauron was the mightiest of Maiar in the beginning, but The One made him greater still. Also, hyperbole kicks ass; but those were his powers at the beginning. And yes, when they returned, Istari and Maiar had to remake themselves whcih took time, but time had no meaning for them.

What I've heard so far is this:

The Ring corrupts people. Big deal. Spies and military intelligence organizations take advantage of corrupt people all the time, or they corrupt people to manipulate them. Sarumon was corrupted without the aid of the Ring. Also, Sauron used Sarumon to control King Theodin, no Ring was required.

The Ring makes "indestructible" structures. These structures can be leveled, but for some reason, the fact that they can be rebuilt qualifies them as indestructible. Perhaps it merely ensures that the foundation will always remain. Either way, this capability is somewhat useless for waging war. You don't need to destroy a structure to render it useless to the enemy.

ps. What are we actually debating? We seem to have changed subject quite a few times.

We're discussing what the Ring does that makes it advantageous to have as a weapon. From what I'm hearing, it doesn't do a whole lot that couldn't be accomplished through a good intelligence network and dedicating resources to military growth.

My point is that Sauron lost in the end because he spent too many resources on hunting the Ring down. Had he devoted those resources to internal security and building his army, he could have easily trampled Middle Earth.

[Morning Star]

You're not answering the question. How much greater? With what weapon did the elves defeat the Balrog, and how does it indicate how much stronger they were? For all we know, a simple lucky stab could defeat a Balrog. Same goes for Morgoth.

Mogoth was the mightiest dweller in Arda. Mightiest in existance save Eru, and only able to be defeated by other gods, as prophesised in the Last Battle. The Elves used swords, usually magic ones fuelled by how great their spirits were. Balrogs have only ever been defeated by immortals, and are also maiar. They were the most powerful of Melkor's legions, even more so than the Uroloki, they are not easily defeated.

How much greater? Enough to stand up to the might of The Black Enemy of the World, for what that's worth. from what we can gather from the Silmarillion: powerful enough to stand toe to toe with the second greatest god in existance...for a time. Compared to the free peoples during the third age, we cannot be certain by how much, but they are cartainly superior and more adept...certainly more powerful than the Istari.

That doesn't answer my question. How do you know there are no limits to their ability to return? Sure, we know they can do it, but if takes anything out of them at all, they can't do it an infinite number of times.

True, we do not know if it tires them, but we have seen no evidence that it does.

In other words, he can't do anything with the Ring that he couldn't do without it. All it does is exaggerate him.

To the point that he can not be threatened...at least by the dwellers of the third Age. He was only defeated during the War of the Last Alliance because of sheer luck. Plus the fact that he was fighting the greatest kings since Feanor. He designed it so that he might take dominion of middle-earth, through the use of his own power, except enhanced. By those standards it meant that it could not be used against him, which we've already said.

Time may have no meaning for them, but if Sauron is gone and takes weeks, months, or years to come back, it does have meaning for the orcs and men who will be fighting over the lands. Suppose you kill him and wipe out his armies, flatten his fortresses, knock down his towers before he returns? When he comes back, what'll he do? Become a really grumpy version of Gandalf, wandering around pissing people off?

lol, i thought gandalf had every right to be grumpy, having to climd the Endless Stairs and all.

But you're right, as seen from when he returned from his fall at the Last Alliance, his armies had been greatly diminished, and it took time to re-build his forces. but he did, even while Middle-earth was under the watch of the White Council. But that is not his fault, it comes from the weaknesses of mortals.

His forces were smashed after he has slain, but he still managed to build them beyond imagination, and while he was gone, the Orcs took care of themslves. plus he still had the nine to prepare for him: at Dol Guldur and Mordor they made steps for him in his absense.

We're debating the power of the Ring. It was asked "can it be used as a weapon" (that's already been answered "no"), and now, we've segued into "how important was it in terms of ME conquest".

It wasn't that important in his conquest. But it was important to him, as it was much a part of his power and his mind. As was seen, without it he fell, even though he had conquered the armies of all those who might threaten him.

ps. Have you heard about him being shown during the next movie at the end? can't wait to see how they show him, as no descriptionis given in the book.

[Morning Star]

The Ring corrupts people. Big deal. Spies and military intelligence organizations take advantage of corrupt people all the time, or they corrupt people to manipulate them. Sarumon was corrupted without the aid of the Ring. Also, Sauron used Sarumon to control King Theodin, no Ring was required.

The Ring makes "indestructible" structures. These structures can be leveled, but for some reason, the fact that they can be rebuilt qualifies them as indestructible. Perhaps it merely ensures that the foundation will always remain. Either way, this capability is somewhat useless for waging war. You don't need to destroy a structure to render it useless to the enemy.

You are thinking in the terms of people giving their allegience through free will. Sauron's One corrupted people be taking their souls and dominating them like pawns. Saruman was not actually corrupted by Sauron, he just learned too mcuh of the One and lusted over it, and so used the guise of friendship against both the coucil, and sauron. Theoden was not courrupted either, he was made sick and weak throught the use of magic, and his senses were dulled.

Barad-dur was only taken during the Last Alliance because the rings was taken and then lost. Remember though, it's foundation could not be rent asunder. The second time it fell apart on it's own as the ring's loss destroyed Sauron, and he remade it through his own power.

And yes you do have to destroy the major strongholds of your enemies. Look at the Last Alliance, they had to level it so that the Nazgul, the men of the East and the remaining orcs could not strike a counter-offensive. And they could only do that when the rings was taken from that place.

We're discussing what the Ring does that makes it advantageous to have as a weapon. From what I'm hearing, it doesn't do a whole lot that couldn't be accomplished through a good intelligence network and dedicating resources to military growth.

My point is that Sauron lost in the end because he spent too many resources on hunting the Ring down. Had he devoted those resources to internal security and building his army, he could have easily trampled Middle Earth.

Yes, you're right, but because sauron did not re-capture it, he was defeated. Simple.

Probably right, but he needed that ring, or there was still a chance, no mater how small, that he could be defeated, and he was.

[Sriad]

Darth Wong

You didn't answer the question. Damien asked what he could do with the Ring that he couldn't do without it ...

The point of the One was to enhance the user's own powers ...

In other words, he can't do anything with the Ring that he couldn't do without it. All it does is exaggerate him.

Don't act like being exaggerated is such a minor thing: if I could do everything I do twice as well as I do now, I could be the world's best athlete/scientist/leader even though right now I'm just a pretty good college student. So maybe Sauron can raise fortresses twice as fast with the ring on?

The ring's indestructability is also important. [mythspeak]As long as the ring exists, Sauron's spirit is anchored to the world, and the ring itself is like a hole punched through reality through which evil and foulness can leak. [/mythspeak] Basically, even though the fortresses and stuff can be broken and Sauron "killed" the ring remains and Sauron isn't defeated, he'll come back as potent as before, and the world will have become less able to resist him over time.

As to why he was trying to get it back, if you had one weakness that could destroy you and the enemy had it, wouldn't you want it back? (I just assume that Mt. Doom can't be destroyed, because if it could everything is dumb.)

[Alex Moon]

Didn't Gandalf refuse to take the ring from Frodo, specifically because he knew he would eventually give into the temptation to try and use the ring for good, but because of the ring's nature, even if he deposed Sauron, Gandalf would simply become a more evil version? If Sauron's power is tied into the ring, then a strong being in Middle Earth, such as Gandalf or Saruman or one of the elves, could possibly use it to challange Sauron's rule, even if Sauron did manage to conqure Middle Earth.

[Darth Wong]

In other words, he can't do anything with the Ring that he couldn't do without it. All it does is exaggerate him.

Don't act like being exaggerated is such a minor thing: if I could do everything I do twice as well as I do now, I could be the world's best athlete/scientist/leader even though right now I'm just a pretty good college student. So maybe Sauron can raise fortresses twice as fast with the ring on?

Sure, but the point would remain that he doesn't actually gain any new powers and would not be unstoppable. If you were twice as fast and twice as smart, you would still go down from a bullet in the head, you would still get the shit kicked out of you by a mob, you would still die if some guy travelling the other way on a two-lane highway suddenly swerves into your lane, etc.

The ring's indestructability is also important. [mythspeak]As long as the ring exists, Sauron's spirit is anchored to the world, and the ring itself is like a hole punched through reality through which evil and foulness can leak. [/mythspeak] Basically, even though the fortresses and stuff can be broken and Sauron "killed" the ring remains and Sauron isn't defeated, he'll come back as potent as before, and the world will have become less able to resist him over time.

If Sauron came back as potent as before, why did it take him thousands of years to rebuild his strength? And if the alliance had pressed on and annihilated the orcs, what armies would he have come back to lead? Nine creepy guys in hooded cloaks?

The political failings and disunities which made his opposition weaker over time were not his doing, and they were not necessarily inevitable. Suppose they had started building war machines in response to the Orcs? We could have very well seen a European-style rapid modernization.

As to why he was trying to get it back, if you had one weakness that could destroy you and the enemy had it, wouldn't you want it back? (I just assume that Mt. Doom can't be destroyed, because if it could everything is dumb.)

Mt. Doom doesn't have to be destroyed. He only has to cave in all of the side entrances, since you presumably can't scale the peak.

[Morning Star]

Sure, but the point would remain that he doesn't actually gain any new powers and would not be unstoppable. If you were twice as fast and twice as smart, you would still go down from a bullet in the head, you would still get the shit kicked out of you by a mob, you would still die if some guy travelling the other way on a two-lane highway suddenly swerves into your lane, etc.

He does get new powers: invisibility and control over all the rings of power. Plus you cannot judge it from someone else wearing it, he made it and it bends to his will alone. You have to be powerful in the first place for any significant enhancement. Like Sauron.

If Sauron came back as potent as before, why did it take him thousands of years to rebuild his strength? And if the alliance had pressed on and annihilated the orcs, what armies would he have come back to lead? Nine creepy guys in hooded cloaks?

He was using all his strength to find the ring, plus he had to re-build the Drak Tower and his armies.

The political failings and disunities which made his opposition weaker over time were not his doing, and they were not necessarily inevitable. Suppose they had started building war machines in response to the Orcs? We could have very well seen a European-style rapid modernization.

Could have, but didn't. The men and elves were in decline.

Mt. Doom doesn't have to be destroyed. He only has to cave in all of the side entrances, since you presumably can't scale the peak.

Begs to wonder why he didn't.

[macman]

The threat of the ring was that it's destruction would destroy Sauron..He already had enough force to destroy middle earth..it was like the exhaust port on the first death star..a weakness and he was searching for it for that reason and because it also would give him control over all the other rings of power....it was stated by one of the Elves that once Sauron has the master ring all of the elves mind would be open to Sauron.....and he would control them....

BTW Grandif was a ring bearer (He had one of the Elf rings) and it certainly seemed to enhance his powers against that Bralog....