Space Combat Vessel Design.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2002-12-27 05:06am

This being a serious thread for serious proposals on the construction of a vessel being designed for resistance to weaponry which might be employed in the course of future space combat, being constructed with reasonable technologies of the next span of years (50 - 200 depending on how fast you think technology will progress and our ability to predict its course).

I invite everyone to post their own proposals; and to comment on my own which shall be now provided below:

The ship would be designed around the principle of being able to survive nuclear combat, and would have layered hulls for this purpose. The goal would be to absorb radiation from near misses in the outer hulls, allowing the inner pressure hulls to be untouched; while a direct hit could be absorbed by a series of hulls and by the use of the fuel as armour to at least allow the ship to survive one of the heavy type.

The ship's outer hull would be a cigar shape, comprising primarily of lead shielding and an appropriate armour layer against lighter weaponry to render them ineffective (hence forcing the use of nukes in the first place). It would be pierced by the manoeuvring thrusters, by the CIWS and antimissile mountings, by the sensors, and by the weapons mountings; some of which could be placed on the outside of the ship entirely (armour blistered as necessary to protect fragile materials from micrometeorites).

The ship would be double-ended, having full thrusting engines fore and aft, which would also of course penetrate the outer hull and would be the only direct connection by necessity to the pressure hulls - That is, the thrust nozzles.

The inner space between the outer hull, and the inner nonpressure hull, would consist of the inner components and as necessary magazines for the equipment placed on the outer hull, and a support laticework. The inner nonpressure hull would be of the same shape as the outer hull; the two would be relatively closely spaced. The inner nonpressure hull would also be radiation shielded, and would have a "catcher" layer of armour designed with the intent of absorbing the fragmentation of the outer hull layer from heavy damage; and sufficiently reinforced to deal with the magazine detonation (the nukes the ship its self carries not being a threat of actual nuclear explosion before launch, of course).

The pressure hull would actually be a series of spherical pressure hulls, each self-contained, built around a reinforced keel. This keel would not however be a vital structural component - though it would be one in general - but rather would carry communications lines and pressurized transfer tubes between the different pressurized spheres of the hull.

These pressure spheres would run in a straight horizontal line down the keel; the ones at each end would be the two respective engineering rooms, with backup power generation and command and control spread throughout the others.

A support latticework would provide the rest of the structural reinforcement, and attach the inner pressure hulls to the outer hulls; it would be desired so that a considerable portion of this could be compromised, and the ship still capable of acceleration. Throughout this latticework and attached to it would be the ship's fuel tanks, hence placed between the pressure hull and the inner nonpressure hull.

The ship would be powered, presumably, using fusion reactors; and the fuel could be a substance without threat of detonation or fire (should the pressure hulls be breached and release oxygen into this area in sufficient quantities - Additional oxygen storage might be provided here for long duration deployment, should it be feasable with the available weight and area requirements of the fuel, and the space inside the hulls, along with safety, as well).

In this fashion even a nuclear detonation on the outer hull might not necessarily destroy the ship, the detonation having to punch through the two armoured layers firstly, and then the fuel tanks - in their secondary use as armour - before reaching the armoured and likewise radiation shielded pressure hulls. Though such a hit might devastate substantial portions of one side of the vessel, it would still be capable of returning to its home port of repairs with its remaining fuel from the other tanks, and with the latticework design, albeit at lower accelerations.

The CIWS and antimissiles, of course, would be the primary defense, in preventing a hit in the first place, and limiting the danger to near-misses, against which the design is admirably suited to remove any danger.

Of course, the only gravity would be that provided by acceleration.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions on modifications or additions?

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-12-27 05:25am

Since thrust provides gravity, then floors and ceilings would have to b able to pull double duty, can it be done in a cost-effective manner while duplicating controls at either "floor"? Also, this presumes constant thrust, ergo, a high rate of fuel consumption.

What is the supposed range of this vessel, and its purpose? If it is a colony ship, why not hibernate most of the crew and colonists and save a bundle o' everything, even thrusting .5 gee? If it is exploration of combat, it will have short range. Why not spin a few relevant areas within the ship to maintain crew muscle mass and go with engine bursts or slow buildup to save fuel?

Also-- how about air, water recycling, and consumables? What would be the expected crew compliment? How about EVA?

Juts some nitpicky details to bug you!

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2002-12-27 05:43am

Coyote wrote:Since thrust provides gravity, then floors and ceilings would have to b able to pull double duty, can it be done in a cost-effective manner while duplicating controls at either "floor"? Also, this presumes constant thrust, ergo, a high rate of fuel consumption.

Damn! I perfect this design taking into account everything necessary to realistically defend it against nuclear weaponry, and then you point out something like that.

But I want that thrust ability without having to spin the ship on its axis. It also gives you a second drive room.

Hrmm. It would be a space waster, unless... I wonder if it would waste less space if you seperated the interiors of the spheres from the armoured exteriors, and gyro-stabilized them? You could have them rotate around to face in the appropriate direction for acceleration, and then lock in place with the transit tubes, during acceleration. Or they could automatically stabilize with manoeuvres during combat. But then transit between the individual spheres wouldn't be possible during combat.

Also, the engineering spheres couldn't do this. We could heavily automate them but I don't want to end up with an Alpha-class disaster. OTOH, except during combat you only need to man one of the engineering spaces, and it might be acceptable to double up their controls anyway.

Thoughts? Alternative proposals?

If you're going to spin these, you're going to use power to do it; you might as well put that power into thrust and develop your gravity that way. At least that's the way I see it.

What is the supposed range of this vessel, and its purpose? If it is a colony ship, why not hibernate most of the crew and colonists and save a bundle o' everything, even thrusting .5 gee? If it is exploration of combat, it will have short range. Why not spin a few relevant areas within the ship to maintain crew muscle mass and go with engine bursts or slow buildup to save fuel?

Well, we could spin the spheres, but I don't like the idea of something designed to spin in the opposite direction as the ship accelerates, especially when it has a relatively high acceleration: I was thinking of the maximum possible that humans could handle over a very extended period (1.75-2.5 Gs; higher for short periods of course).

This is basically a high-performance sublight warship for use in the solar system.

Also-- how about air, water recycling, and consumables? What would be the expected crew compliment? How about EVA?

Juts some nitpicky details to bug you!

I'm still working out the specifics. Conceivably missions would be on the order of years. EVA would be accomplished by a series of locks, and of course repairs could be accomplished in the less severe, though still vacuum (but low radiation) enviroment of the inner hulls in less than full suits (IE without radiation protection or manoeuvring thrusters).

A ship of the type I'm describing could probably be quite large and so I suspect the crew compliment could reach a thousand. I'm imagining a length of between 450 - 1,200 meters depending on just what it is used for. Some designs, for example, might have a capacity to land troops, though sacrificing the comprehensiveness of their protection - But they would correspondingly much larger.

Am I making sense?

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-12-27 05:53am

Sorry to beef you with the floor/ceiling observation.... but I'd suppose the central sphere could be the "bridge" and in that area specifically you could double up or have a spin mechanism. The rest of the ship could be devoted to either ergonomically neutral furniture or items that can be unclamped and reclamped according to a new orientation.. this would be living quarters and storage, basically, where people have time to change the furniture around.

As for EVA, I was wondering more about shuttles, landing boats, and spacesuits with MMUs.

But around 1,000 people? That will be, pardon me, but a lot of poop. Waste recycling and food will be high-mass, and the water for all of them! There will be no showers, it will be a wet-wipe moist bathing cloth type of crew, so it'll get a bit funky from time to time. Hygiene will be important; disease has always wiped out more concentration of troops than warfare itself.

For insystem use that cuts down on fuel needs, especially since for non-combat use you could deploy a solar collector/sail. But it begs the question, who would we be fighting?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2002-12-27 06:03am

Coyote wrote:Sorry to beef you with the floor/ceiling observation.... but I'd suppose the central sphere could be the "bridge" and in that area specifically you could double up or have a spin mechanism. The rest of the ship could be devoted to either ergonomically neutral furniture or items that can be unclamped and reclamped according to a new orientation.. this would be living quarters and storage, basically, where people have time to change the furniture around.

That would work nicely, really.

As for EVA, I was wondering more about shuttles, landing boats, and spacesuits with MMUs.

I think an excessive deal is made about these: But I would just place the bays in the depressurized area between the inner nonpressure hull and the pressure hulls, and then have the hatch or hatches on the ends, which are already the weakest portions of the ship; since it would presumably be doctrine to deny them to the enemy, just remember more to do that.

But around 1,000 people? That will be, pardon me, but a lot of poop. Waste recycling and food will be high-mass, and the water for all of them! There will be no showers, it will be a wet-wipe moist bathing cloth type of crew, so it'll get a bit funky from time to time. Hygiene will be important; disease has always wiped out more concentration of troops than warfare itself.

Quite true, though in theory, considering the size of the vessel I thought that was reasonable. Automation isn't all that it's hyped up to be, though it will help with dealing with the waste products from so many (the size). We can also expect advances in that field as we reach the point of deploying such ships.

For insystem use that cuts down on fuel needs, especially since for non-combat use you could deploy a solar collector/sail. But it begs the question, who would we be fighting?

I'm of the belief that Earth will not unify, and the exploration of space will be undertaken by great powers; large democratic/capitalist nations in competition with each other for the resources in space, which will be needed to sustain their industry and overpopulation on Earth, along with the large multinational companies which will dominate the less developed and smaller nations of the planet.

The Solar System will become a field of colonial warfare for the Great Powers of the 22nd Century. That's my prediction.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2002-12-27 06:38am

Who is this space craft meant to fight? Vs. aliens or just international space superiority?

KG

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-27 01:10pm

How about an Omega. It has heavy weaponry, jump engines, and a hanger to launch fighters, shuttles, and EVA if needed. It has a fusion reactor for propulsion thus it probably has higher standard radiation plating, and it can take quite a few missles as seen in the B5 episode where Sheridan arrives at Earth.

Though the ship you propose with spin mechanisms, cerca the Discovery(2001: ASO) Really a ship such as this would not need a large crew, just enough engineers to keep the power plant safe, the astrogation and medical teams, and tactical specialists. The hanger could be at the front of the cigar, holding landing shuttles and EVA craft, pods from 2001 too. If this is a dedicated troop ship, with say 1000 troops, they could be held in hybernative sleep in large, easily storable numbers in a cargo bay or the hanger for easy access to the shuttles. If anything this ship will be cramped, no space vessel with a large enough crew can afford to be anything but cramped, especially if you are taking this into combat. Keeping troops or combat personnel in storage would mean cuts in mass or the ability to stay away from a base for longer.
This vessel would also require a VERY complex and fast computer, because if any powers are vying for resources, then this craft will probably be used to patrol or invade parts of the asteroid belt, thus it will have to be able to figure balistics for thousands of small objects.
When out of combat and asteroid fields I would assume that this craft would spare its reactor fuel for combat and have large expanding solar arrays that can be deployed from within.

I'm of the belief that Earth will not unify, and the exploration of space will be undertaken by great powers; large democratic/capitalist nations in competition with each other for the resources in space, which will be needed to sustain their industry and overpopulation on Earth, along with the large multinational companies which will dominate the less developed and smaller nations of the planet.

If corporate or national forces wanted to war over the right to use resources then they would build, base, and keep themselves in space and not on earth. Earth is a very fragile and easy target, a couple of gravetically propulsed megagram rocks with guiding rockest moving at terminal velocity could easily wipe out an Earthbound city with earth's own gravity.(Read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, by RA Heinlein) These powers would probably become completely space oriented, perhaps even leaving the earth and surronding space entirely, earth itself would be left to find peace with itself.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-27 02:55pm

I saw you mention this in another thread, and thought about it for a while in case you did post this topic. For simplicity I will use the same basic basic paramiters that you used such as a system wide craft with out inter steller capability and one designed to use against colonial militants in the Sol system.

My proposal:

The UN Spacy Cruiser would be a cigar shaped vessel roughly a thousand meters in length. It would resemble a Typhoon class SSBN in that it is wider than tall and it has a sail like structure at midpoint on the dorsal and ventral hulls. The aft end has an engine cowling with four cylinder shaped structures ontop of small pylons attached to the engine cowling on the dorsal, ventral, port, and starboard surfaces.

The ship is double hulled with an armored exterior and various interior hulls for various sections. The frame work is made from plastic derivitives and carbon fiber elements that make it strong and some what flexible. The armor is a heavy and dense alloy and/or titanium to resist heat, radiation, and weapons fire. Between the two hulls, large volumes of inert substances like moon dirt is packed into the space. This serves as a cheap radiation shield against comsic radiation and weapons radiation.

Nearly half the ship is the engine compartment. Starting at the sails and working back toward the aft end of the ship is the MCF (magnetic confinement fusion) engine. Wrapped around the engine is the secondary and support systems for the engine to include the hydrogen tanks, powercells, and magnetic coils with subsystems. The cylinder structures on the outside of the engine cowling are exterior magnetic coils to vector the thrust once it exits the engine and the external coils also wrap a magnetic field around the ship to deflect harmfull radiation from space and to a limited degree, weapons fire. The engine cowling around the thruster is a large heat exchange system that radiates heat into space and can when needed, use the waste heat to make electricity.

About one third of the ship and infront of the "sails" in the habital section of the ship. Inside the double hull is a rotating section that simulates 3/4 gravity at the bottom deck and the top deck experinences 1/4 gravity. The center portion of the habital section that experinces less than 1/4 gravity, holds the enviromental systems of the ship. Oxygen and Hydrogen tanks that are used to make water(and power) for this section are stored here. Waste products are recycled here and are redistributed to the approprate place if not dumbed overboard. Power for the rotating section is created in the habitale section although power from the main engine or the secondary power systems can be used as well. Counter rotating flywheels are located at both ends of the habital section and are powered localy. Note, the rotating section is underneath the external armored hull and can not be observed by external observation. Roughly a thousand people crew the ship and live in this section. Since this is a ship that is cofined to the Sol system, a network of bases is set up around the system and can be utilized for resupply and refueling various comsumables.

The forward portion of the ship (the bow) is taken up with sensors and weapon systems. Primary Active and Passive sensor systems for IR, thermal, and various radiation detectors, and a good old visual telescope are located here. The ship also utilizes various radar systems for scanning and target aquasition. The primary weapons load are missiles in internal launchers or tubes. Various types of missiles are available, and the primary weapon of choise is the good old thermo nuclear warhead in the KT range. MT range weapons can be deployed for planetary missions and various special weapons are available. CIWS are located around the outer hull and are tasked with repeling the enemies missiles. The CIWS consist of rapid fire, radar guided, kenitic weapons that put a lead or depleted uranium wall infront of an incoming missile to destroy it.

The ventral and dorsal "sails" contain secondary sensors and communication gear that can be elevated above or below the engines to increase their abilities. Secondary radar systems are located here as well. Docking is also facilitated in the "sails".

Combat:
This cruiser will manuver into position at an extreme range and launch its missilies at a target(s). Then continue to close with its enemies and fire off another salvo at a medium range. It is not designed for close range combat, but it is possible for the point defense weapons to target enemy vessels. It is not a troop ship, so in planetary actions it will remain in orbit and fire off missiles at ground targets.

In defense, incoming missiles are identified and targeted by the ships sensors and ingaged at a medium range with the CIWS and continues to be engaged by the system until they are destroyed. If the ship is hit by the enemy missile or is hit by a near miss you count on the magnetic field to dispurse the radiation of the blast along with the armored hull and radiation shielding between the two hulls.

Construction of the ships is done at the Moon or other low gravity facilities around the Sol system. The low gravity enviroment facilitates the launching of such a large vessel out of a gravity well while having all the advantages of construction in a low gravity enviroment and take advantage of a ground instillation and surrounding industrial complexes. Not to mention large quanities of moon dirt for the radiation shielding.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-27 03:45pm

My idea would be an manned AND automated space station with lots of missiles and guns. You don't need the thing to be some massively complex ship, because in space ships and space stations are identical with the exception of engines. So have the thing have some nice engines that can move it from place to place, possible solar sails a few 10s of kilometres across.

To be honest, I doubt we'll be fighting wars in space. Theres simply no reason. There won't be any extra planetary governments out there within 200 years and disputes between nations regarding space issues will be fought here on earth not in space. Its more likely that the guys in space will be kicking back and partying together while the politicians argue about some pathetically stupid and miniscule issue.

When space wars come, it will be when theres large enough colonies that have become seperate nations. Putting missile ships or drones into space would be alot simpler then some huge warship with guns, and would be more cost effective.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-27 03:55pm

A space cruiser would use H-bombs to knock out defenses from orbit and then launch transport craft with troops to get into the colony or whatever it is. All of these marines would have to be trained to fire weapons in low to zero gravity environments as people trained on earth with earth's gravity would unconsciously fire too high so they would hit the target if it were in earth grav.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2002-12-28 12:46am

My proposal

"Nani Nani Nadesico" Class Combat support crusier

Year: 2125

Role: To support combat drones and long range missiles in long distance missions. Not intended for slugfests however.

Crew: 100 with 15 command and control staff, 5 moral officer, 25 engineering specialists, 5 nagivation specialists, and 50 general crew man.

Shape: ellipsoid that is enlonged at the axis of the weapon.
It is still largely sphereroid like however at 400 meter long, 300 meter wide with the front largely flat to allow for a big mirror. The basic design is fuel tanks all around (fuel 80%~90% of mass with drop tanks), and important structures in the middle. Capable of allowing mutiple combat drones and missiles to latch on.

Engines:
Primary: Fusion electric remass drive (high SI so it can go somewhere)
Secondary: Chemical powered thusters, Fission thermal tactical Engine
Optional attach on engines: Orion drive(when you need speed fast), laser sail(long range stealth coasting)

Sensor systems:
One retractable, reconfigerable 350 meter mirror at the front for Passive Radar, IR and light sensors. Active Radar mounted as backup and nagivation as it is far too unstealthy to be used in combat.

Weapon systems: Fusion powered laser using main mirror, Varible and various fusion bombardment missiles (for blasting stationary and undefended targets)

Defense systems: 50 Decoy drones, 1 light point defense coil gun

Armor: A few thin layers of ablative armor, reflective armor, superconductive and raditation armor designed to take low power laser shots. Heavier frontal anti-laser armor in the front.

Other: A full workshop capable of field repairing and recovering drone and missiles from malfunction and light battle damage. Full command and control system using laser communications.

Carried weapons:

"Yamaze" class medium range attack drone.

Role: Space superiority Combat craft

Shape: Sphere, 35 meter diameter. Fuel around craft arrangement.

Engine: Fission Nuclear Combine cycle engine,

Armor: anti-laser armor that is especially heavy in the front.

Weapon: Fission powered laser with 60 meter retractable, rearrangable mirror

Sensors: IR, Visible light, Radar. Mirror can be combined with other drones for high senser fidelity.

"Darkstar" class short range assult missile

Role: Suicidal bombardment weapon

Shape: Cone, 50 meter long, 30 meter diameter.

Engine: Thermal Fission, with orion booster if needed

Armor: all around anti-laser armor, Superheavy frontal anti laser armor

Warhead: Usually mutiple guided nuclear submuitions or fission x-ray laser warhead, exact nature depending on mission.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-28 01:17am

5 "morale officers"?? Great, revenge of the space hookers.

Well, lesse, you forgot to mention comp systems and med staff

Things to add:
Occular motion sensors: In other words watch stuff move, or where stars disappear and re appear. In the case of a radar proof enemy ship, which is far more viable for long range space combat.
And just to make sure that everything is seen 4 separate radar arrays, this means you'll be better able to spot radar deflecting craft. Current stealth craft use special reflective plating to bounce radio beams in odd directions, but if numerous beams are reflected then they begin to make it easier to spot stealth craft, this is why cellphones can defeat stealth tech.(Read this in pop sci or pop mech a while back)

Also the best way to knock out a stationary target is not a long range laser as the power systems on this craft could probably not put a gigawatt, but what would be good is rail guns, remember these targets are probably radiation and heat resistant, they are probably asteroid or orbital, thus have to deal with solar flares and direct sunlight, which is a LOT of radiation, what works best is to fire heavy, concussive missles or simply fast moving rocks at the target to rupture the hull and cause depressurization, this will knock out an orbital target fast, an asteroid target within minutes to hours, and a more heavily fortified target would require prolonged bombardment.

Any missle or drone repair would probably best be taken care of outside of the craft as these carry heavy payloads of fuel/detonatable material at least the batteries and reactor cores should be kept in some form of outer docking station.
Also all drones should be equipable with smaller versions of the main craft's solar array so that when in a cruising mode, the craft can get more power and not be so demanded of fuel by the drones.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2002-12-28 02:46am

Also the best way to knock out a stationary target is not a long range laser as the power systems on this craft could probably not put a gigawatt

c speed weaponary with big ass mirrors = you can't touch me while thousand pokes of doom kills you.

Afterall, a systems kill is all thats needed.

And never under estimated capaciters and really short pulses....

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2002-12-30 06:56am

Don't forget a dedicated staff of hackers. Think about it: a good hacker could tap into the enemy ship's communications and worm into the computer systems to disturb, disable, and to create mayhem. The only realistic defense would be to put up another team in the enemy craft to defend and counterattack. Another defense is to use separate computer systems for each vital system so the hackers will have to work harder to accomplish their mission.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-12-31 12:51pm

jaeger115 wrote:Don't forget a dedicated staff of hackers. Think about it: a good hacker could tap into the enemy ship's communications and worm into the computer systems to disturb, disable, and to create mayhem. The only realistic defense would be to put up another team in the enemy craft to defend and counterattack. Another defense is to use separate computer systems for each vital system so the hackers will have to work harder to accomplish their mission.

Hackers might become a part of future warefare, but during battle do you really think someone is gonna be running around with open ports and the equivelent of a WiFi network to patch into? I doubt it. Besides, your assuming all the equipment is running on some sort of Windows.

Even if there were vulnerablilities hack exploits that could be used in battle would need to be run quickly like in a script. You dont have time to social engineer, look for loopholes in code, etc.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2002-12-31 01:10pm

I think you may be going about the design all wrong. Your ship is incredibly massive with all that heavy metal shielding, which means it will maneuver like a pig. It will probably also be very easy to spot, and consequently it will probably be destroyed quite quickly, since I don't see how you can possibly armor it enough to survive the kind of weaponry your expecting it to face.

I think you would be much better off with a small stealth design. Find the enemy before they find you and cripple them before they get a chance to shoot back. This would make laser-based weapons your best ship-to-ship weapon, and they would be much more practical on a spacecraft than they would be on Earth (where atmospheric distortion severely limits their range). Ideally, the enemy's first indication that you're in the area is the large hole in their hull.

A lighter design will allow you to move faster on less thrust. This design is based on outmaneuvering your enemy and operating as a sort of sniper: locate a target, hit it, relocate.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-31 03:36pm

Your silly hackers can be defeated in an instant. Simply run a firewall that blocks connections to computer systems without the proper codes. Problem solved. Or if it's one on one simply turn off your comms connected to the computer system.

However, REAL hacking of computers takes time, often days not minutes. So you'd be long dead anyways.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 03:45pm

Hackers won't instant-hack in battle, but as part of a first strike, they would be invaluable. Fleets of ships moving around, warily eyeing one another across the border, and all of a sudden the ships on side A suffer total systems failure. The ships from side B pour over the DMZ in waves, blasting the ships on side A and moving on to their now helpless targets. Rock 'n roll!

This is why ST-style computer-controlled ships with remote access and no system segregation or manual override are a bad idea.

Captain Kruger · Post by **Captain Kruger** » 2002-12-31 05:10pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:How about an Omega.

As long as you replace that stupid, vulnerable rotating section with a cylindrical one.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-12-31 07:01pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:How about an Omega.

By the time all the stupid engineering had been removed all that'd be left would be a blank sheet of paper. As far as sci-fi ships go, Omegas aren't all that stupidly designed, but they're nowhere near good enough for hard SF use.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 07:14pm

I think the thing some people forget is that unless you can do it with no significant impact, artificial gravity is a waste of time on a military spaceship. Any system designed to produce artificial gravity would take space, energy, and possibly performance away from its prime function as a military vessel, and a ship could easily be designed with handrails and such so that people can function quite well without gravity.

In uber-sci-fi series where they have power to spare and artificial gravity is triflingly easy to create, it's no big deal. But in a realistic sci-fi series, the idea of compromising the combat effectiveness of a vessel for the sake of artificial gravity is just silly. If they're concerned about physical health, a rotating section would still only help the people who happen to be in it, and you would be better off making tiny rotating PT areas rather than a huge section of the ship for that purpose.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-31 07:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:I think the thing some people forget is that unless you can do it with no significant impact, artificial gravity is a waste of time on a military spaceship. Any system designed to produce artificial gravity would take space, energy, and possibly performance away from its prime function as a military vessel, and a ship could easily be designed with handrails and such so that people can function quite well without gravity.

What about the loss of bone mass due to lack of gravity on long flights?
Don't real astronauts who spend extended periods in space suffer from it as well?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 07:34pm

Sir Sirius wrote:What about the loss of bone mass due to lack of gravity on long flights?

Read the second paragraph.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-12-31 07:51pm

Darth Wong wrote:I think the thing some people forget is that unless you can do it with no significant impact, artificial gravity is a waste of time on a military spaceship.

Beg to differ. Microgravity is a real pain to deal with in every area from technical maintainance, fire fighting, cooling, to human factors (eating, sleeping, shitting). Its much easier to do things when things aren't floating around of their own accord.

Furthermore, in the absense of an uberdrive, interplanetary missions are going to last for months or years. Exposing a crew to microgravity for this period will result in serious long-term health problems (look up the Russians experience with long duration stays on Mir--exercise helps but isn't a cureall) to the point that recruitment will become a challenge. Very few people will want to sign up for the space forces if a career of deployments means enough chronic damage that they'll be unable to function in a planetary environment or be extremely prone to ostioporosis.

There isn't any easy way out of the gravity problem. Small spinning cans for exercise aren't workable because of the spin rates required to simulate a reasonable gravitational acceleration. It's currently thought that the highest spin rate tolerable by most of the population is on the order of 3rpm. To simulate lunar gravity (which might not be enough to stave of microgravity health issues) requires a diameter of 33m: this is much more like the dimension of a ship than an internal spinning can used just for exercise.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 07:59pm

Enlightenment wrote:Beg to differ. Microgravity is a real pain to deal with in every area from technical maintainance, fire fighting, cooling, to human factors (eating, sleeping, shitting). Its much easier to do things when things aren't floating around of their own accord.

Of course artificial gravity is beneficial, but it's not worth dying for, so in a combat vessel which is expected to maneuver, it's not worth it unless you can use uber-tech.

Very few people will want to sign up for the space forces if a career of deployments means enough chronic damage that they'll be unable to function in a planetary environment or be extremely prone to ostioporosis.

If we're dealing with strictly realistic tech, then space combat is a no-brainer. As soon as you know where your enemy is, he's dead. No spacecraft can carry any kind of armour or defensive system which will keep an attacker from destroying him.

There isn't any easy way out of the gravity problem. Small spinning cans for exercise aren't workable because of the spin rates required to simulate a reasonable gravitational acceleration. It's currently thought that the highest spin rate tolerable by most of the population is on the order of 3rpm. To simulate lunar gravity (which might not be enough to stave of microgravity health issues) requires a diameter of 33m: this is much more like the dimension of a ship than an internal spinning can used just for exercise.

Then you have carriers which rotate but whose combat survivability is near-nil, and you have zero-g fighters for all the combat.