the one ring as a weapon?

[Dargos]

I know this is a long post, but after some research here is a little info on the Rings

Rings of Power

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

How many Rings of Power were Made?
The verse in the Lord of the Rings makes explicit reference to 20 Rings of Power: 9 for Mortal Men, 7 for Dwarf Lords, 3 for Elven Kings, and 1 for the Dark Lord. These are the Rings of Power made in the Second Age and concern the events of the Third Age.

Were Other Rings Made?
It has been said that more rings were made but they are of a lesser nature than the Great Rings of Power. Gandalf suggests as much when he explains the history of the Rings of Power to Frodo:

"In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous." [FR]
Another allusion to more rings is made when Sauron invaded Eregion to reclaim by force all the rings he had sought to rule by the forging and wearing of the One:

"There Sauron took the Nine Rings and the lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find." [UT]
We are not told how many of these lesser rings were made, nor of the nature of their power. Their use is nowhere recorded in the history of Middle-earth.

It is also possible that Saruman himself created a minor ring as is suggested in the Fellowship of the Ring during the Council of Elrond where Gandalf is recounting his capture in Isengard:

"But I rode up to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman...He wore a ring on his finger." In the same section Saruman declares "For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours." [FR]
We are told in several places that the study of the lore of the Rings of Power was Saruman's province. It is quite possible and plausible that Saruman created his own ring of power and used this ring to control and dominate his army of orcs, wargs, and half-breeds. After all he was a Maia (of Aulë, the smith) and possessed great power.

Who made the Rings of Power?
It was the Elves of Eregion who made all the rings, except for the One which Sauron forged by himself in Mount Doom.

After the defeat of Morgoth in the First Age, some of the remaining Noldorin Elves settled in Eregion and built a city called Ost-in-Edhil around the year 750 in the Second Age close to the west gate of the dwarven kingdom of Moria. About the year 1200, Sauron came among the Elves in a fair form using the name Annatar (Lord of Gifts), but with a dark plan to ensnare them. Sauron greatly desired to "persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power [Silm]." He taught them secret lore, and with this knowledge their craftsmen (a guild called the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths) created the Rings of Power which included the Seven and the Nine. But Sauron had a part in the creation of these rings and he guided the Elves in their making. However, the Three Elven Rings were conceived and made by the Elven-smith, Celebrimbor, alone, and Sauron never touched the Three.

Why were the Rings of Power Made, and what were their Powers?
The reason is tied to the regret the Elves had for the passage of time. The Elves were immortal and were fated to live as long as Middle-earth lasted. As such, the earth changed with the passage of time, and the Elves saw many things that were fair become destroyed and lost by the hurts of evil. Sauron, as tempter, awoke a desire in the hearts of Elves to heal the hurts of the earth and create a paradise on this side of the sea to compare to Valinor - and to be its rulers; whereas in Valinor they were only subjects and below the Valar. The Rings of Power were primarily made to slow the passage of time and preserve their creations of beauty. Yet they had other powers as well.

Tolkien provides a revealing insight on to the nature of the Rings and their powers in one of his letters:

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. `change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching `magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron...such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible." [Letters #131)
The Rings were not made as instruments of war or domination; they could not create lightning bolts or hail storms. Yet, they conferred powers commensurate with that of the user; a Great Ring in the hands of a weak and lesser person could not work effects to the extent of the wise or great. Notice Galadriel's words to Frodo in Lothlórien:

"Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others." [FR]
The Elves used the Three Rings to create "islands of timeless beauty" and guard them against the passage of time and evil. Their use can be seen at work at various points :

Elrond used the power of his ring, Vilya, to cause the flood of the river Bruinen when the Nazgûl tried to capture Frodo.

Galadriel used the power of her ring, Nenya, to keep a guard on Lothlórien so that none could enter without her leave.

Gandalf used the power of his ring, Narya, to kindle the hearts and spirits of the enemies of Sauron to do great deeds.

But the use of the Elven Rings was possible only after Sauron was defeated in the Second Age and his Ring taken and assumed lost. If Sauron regained the One, then all the works of the Elves and the use of their Rings would be subject to the evil will of Sauron.

What About the Powers of the Seven and Nine?
As stated, the Seven and Nine Rings were originally made by the Elves and not evil until Sauron forged the One and later took these rings by war. Their initial purpose was to slow the passage of time and preserve beauty, but since Sauron had a part in their making they became accursed and had evil powers. He gave the rings to different races of Middle-earth to enslave and so control them.

Sauron gave the Seven to the Dwarves, who proved harder to enslave;

"they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts..." [Silm]
This implies their rings had other powers but were not used probably because this would draw attention to the user and all that he did.

Sauron gave the Nine to Mortal Men who proved easiest to ensnare. It was said that

"those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth...They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men..." [Silm]

According to Letter #131, the Seven and Nine conferred invisibility to the user as well as unending life. However, eventually the user would fade and become a wraith under the control of Sauron, the Dark Lord. However, the Three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility.

Why did Sauron create the One Ring and What Were Its Powers?
It was part of Sauron's scheme to ensnare and enslave the users of all the rings of power and so control the Noldor of Middle-earth. Sauron planned for the domination of all of Middle-earth and he needed/wanted to control the Elves to complete this plan. This was the reason for the forging of the One Ring. Sauron went to Orodruin, Mount Doom, to forge the Ruling Ring, and by putting a large part of his own inherent power into the Ring he created a means by which he could enslave the users of the rings:

" And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them." [Silm]
Sauron took quite a risk in placing a major portion of his own power into an item that could be taken from his control. This is exactly what happened at the end of the Second Age when the Last Alliance of Elves and Men defeated Sauron and Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand. Separated from his power, Sauron was vanquished and seemingly disappeared from Middle-earth. Tolkien's view on the use of power is revealed in another one of his Letters:

"The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to `philosophise' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalised and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control." [Letters #121)
Yet while Sauron wore the One his powers on earth were actually enhanced. Its powers were primarily of domination and control. He used the power of the Ring to rule whole peoples who worshipped him as a God-king. Through its use he could control the orcs, the trolls, the Haradrim, wargs, and his most feared servants the Ringwraiths. Because Sauron could already control the weather and the Fires of Mount Doom, these too would have been further enhanced to truly frightening levels if he had regained the One. With the One, his Eye would have seen every thought or action anywhere in Middle-earth; no secret could have been kept from him and no one could have withstood him. With the One, Sauron would have captured the Three Elven Rings and he would have used them to create Timeless evil in Middle-earth; all under the control of the One.

What Happened to the Rings and Who Held Them?
For a brief time, all the Rings of Powers were presumably worn and used in Eregion between the time Sauron left the Elves after the rings were made (1590 SA) and when Sauron forged the One Ring (1600 SA). But as soon as Sauron put on the One Ring, the Elves took off all their rings for they finally saw through the deceptions of Sauron and realized that their creations would only be corrupted and used for evil:

"But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings." [Silm].
Some counselled that their rings be destroyed but the Elves could not bring themselves to destroy the Rings - and so they were hid. The Seven and the Nine were separated. Of the Three, Celebrimbor gave one, Nenya, to Galadriel, and the other two, Vilya and Narya, to Gil-galad. In turn, Gil-galad kept Vilya and gave Narya to Círdan of the Grey Havens to hold. An alternate to this version states that during the first Council of the Second Age, it was deemed wise that Elrond receive the ring Vilya and Gil-galad kept Narya until departing to war in the Last Alliance.

Angered that his plan was revealed and failed, Sauron made war on the Elves to claim the Rings without his help they could not have made. He laid Eregion to waste and sacked the Elvish city of Ost-in-edhil. He then captured and tortured Celebrimbor into revealing where the Rings were hidden:

"There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three: the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose." [UT]
Using Celebrimbor's body as a battle standard on a pole, Sauron returned with war and overran all of Eriador in search for the Three Elven Rings. But he never found them and only suspected where they were hid. With the help of the Númenóreans, Sauron was finally driven out of Eriador c. 1701 Second Age and there was peace for a long while.

Sauron's power was later challenged by the Númenóreans and he was taken back as prisoner where through the use of the One Ring he corrupted them and incited them to rebel against the Valar. Then Ilúvatar was called on and the world was changed and Númenor drowned in the ocean. Sauron went down as well, but his spirit fled (with the Ring) back to Middle-earth. When he took shape again he saw how the Númenóreans had grown in strength where their new kingdoms sprang up. He resolved to make war and drive them out before they became too strong. Then the Last Alliance was formed between Elves and Men to battle Sauron. There, before the Black Tower, Barad-dûr, Sauron was thrown down and vanquished in the year 3441 Second Age.

But after a respite, Sauron's spirit appeared again in the Third Age and threatened the free people in Middle-earth. Around the year 1000 Third Age the Istari, or Wizards, came to Middle-earth to help in the struggle against Sauron. Last to come was Gandalf and Círdan was moved to turn Narya over to Gandalf as he saw that it would be put to better use:

"Take now this Ring, he said; for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thous shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill." [Silm]
So at the time of the story of Lord of the Rings, the Three Elven Rings were in the hands of the Wise; Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, the Nine Sauron held, as well as four of the Seven (the other three were consumed by dragons), and the One was in the hands of Frodo the Hobbit.

What did the Rings look like and What Were They Made From?
Saruman's study of the Rings provides us with useful information as to their appearance. Gandalf recounts the history of the One Ring during the Council of Elrond by recalling the words of Saruman:

"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three", he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read." [FR]
These letters could be seen when the One Ring was heated, as in Frodo's fire where Gandalf confirms his suspicions by making the inscriptions appear as fiery letters of elven script in the Black Tongue.

We also know the types of gems used for the Three Elven Rings:

Narya was set with a ruby.
Nenya was set with a adamant.
Vilya was set with a sapphire.

We know that Nenya was made of mithril from the description at the Grey Havens:

"On her finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of mithril, that bore a single white stone flickering like a frosty star." [RK]
What the other Elven-rings were made of is not known. Perhaps, since they were the creation of Celebrimbor alone and apart and different in nature than the other rings they were all made of mithril. But from the above description it seems as if Tolkien is singling out Nenya as distinct and different by saying "the" ring made of mithril - as if implying that the other rings were made of some other material like gold.

As for the Seven Dwarven Rings, we know that they were of gold from the Silmarillion where it was said "that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring." However, we do not know what gems were used in the rings.

As for the Nine, there is nothing written that describes what they were made of or what type of gems they had. Yet, it could be assumed that they too, were of gold.

The One Ring was, of course, made of gold and was unadorned with no gems, and seemingly smooth except for the inscription made visible when the Ring is heated.

Did the Rings have names?We only know that the Three Elven Rings had their own proper names:

Narya (Fire);
also known as the Ring of Fire or the Red Ring, and by one obscure reference as the Kindler [Letters #301].
Nenya (Water);
also known as the Ring of Adamant or the White Ring, also called chief of the Three [UT].
Vilya (Air);
also known as the Ring of Sapphire or the Ring of Air. also called mightiest of the Three [RK].
Sauron's ring had no proper name, but was referred to by many names: the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, Sauron's Ring, or the Great Ring of Power.

The dwarven rings and those of the Nazgûl are only known collectively as the Seven and the Nine, and if they had each their own proper name they are not known.

Did the Nazgûl Wear Their Own Rings or Did Sauron Hold Them?This is a hotly debated issue. Some believe that the Nazgûl kept their own rings and were enslaved and controlled by Sauron through their rings. This side also believes that the Nazgûl derived their power as Ringwraiths by wearing their own rings. The only clear statement for this stand is during the Council of Elrond where Gandalf states that "The Nine the Nazgûl keep." There are faults with this position;

Why was there no ring left on the ground after the Witch-king was defeated by Eowyn and Merry, whereas Sauron's Ring was left for the taking by Isildur when defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil?
Why didn't Frodo, as Ring Bearer, see the rings on the Ringwraiths on Weathertop and at the Ford of Bruinen when he saw their swords, pale faces, their eyes, and their crowns?
Compare this to the fact that while in Lothlórien he was able to see Galadriel's ring, Nenya, upon her finger when Sam could not.

Most of the evidence points to the opinion that Sauron himself held the rings. In the Fellowship of the Ring, Gandalf explains the history of the Rings to Frodo and tells him that:

"So it is now; the Nine he had gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still." [FR]
This statement is clearly in context with rings and not wills as mention of the Seven is made. We know of no wraiths or slaves that wear the remaining Seven. Therefore, gathering the Nine and Seven to himself means just that - Sauron has the Nine and remaining Seven Rings in his physical possession.

Galadriel also confirms this by telling Frodo while in Lothlórien:

"You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." [FR]
Then we have the following accounts from The Hunt for the Ring in Unfinished Tales:

"At length he (Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held."
"They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..." [UT]
These statements clearly show that it was Sauron who held the rings and so controlled the Nazgûl.

The most definitive statement comes from one of his letters describing the situation of Frodo at the Cracks of Doom and is extremely informative concerning the nature of One Ring:

"Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring...But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings(which he held) had primary control of their wills..." [Letters #246)
It would appear from the above body of evidence that when Sauron first claimed the Nine he then gave the Nine Rings to Mortal Men who used the power of their rings for dominance and control. In the end, they faded and became Wraiths - at which point Sauron took their rings back to hold and so control his most feared servants.

What happened to the power of the Rings once the One Ruling Ring was destroyed?
The most widely held position is that with the destruction of the One Ring all the remaining rings also lost their power (including the Three Elven Rings) and became ineffectual against the passage of time for which they were created. The reasoning behind this is because the One Ring was embodied with the power necessary to bind and control all the Rings of Power when the One's power was destroyed so was the power of all the other Rings. Those who held the Three; Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel departed over the sea into the West and took the Rings with them. The evidence for this position is found in several places:

"Yet many voices were heard among the Elves foreboding that, if Sauron should come again, then either he would find the Ruling Ring that was lost, or at the best his enemies would discover it and destroy it; but in either chance the powers of the Three must then fail and all things maintained by them must fade, and so the Elves should pass into the twilight and the Dominion of Men begin." [Silm]
"But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey." [Silm]
"But what would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel? asked Gloin. We know not for certain, answered Elrond sadly. Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief." [FR]
The most melancholy reference is when the lady Galadriel explains to Frodo the fate of the Elves upon the outcome of the quest:

"Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away." [FR]
Because the primary power of the Three Rings is to slow or arrest the passage of time, Galadriel's words clearly mean that with the destruction of the One Ring, they too lose their power.

[Next of Kin]

It is rather unlikely that such a large alliance could be formed of men, elves, and heroes to march to the slopes of Mount Doom and call out Sauron in his front yard and challenge him to a duel. it took an enchanted sword to chop the finger off not some rusty butter knife. icon_wink.gif

Aragorn has Anduril, surely he could do it, or Gandalf.

It wasn't part of Gandalf's (or any of the other istari) mandate to waltz into Mordor and slay the Dark Lord. I'm not going to refute Aragorn's hero status as he ranks up there with the best of them. However, the forces of good simply lacked the manpower and elfpower to march into Mordor and lay seige to Sauron's fortress.

[Durandal]

That's all very interesting, Dargo; kudos for you for taking the time to do the research, but I didn't really see anything there that made the Ring an absolute necessity for Sauron's conquest on Middle Earth. The fact that the Elves had begun leaving, that the world of Men was disjointed and factioned and that every race operated on a more or less "every Man/Dwarf/Elf for himself" principle made Middle Earth ripe for conquest by a numerically overwhelming and united force. No special rings would have been needed.

The basic point is that the Ring really gave Sauron nothing that aided his conquest of Middle Earth. He himself was greatly enhanced, but even Sauron is just one guy. Sauron had all that he needed to take over Middle Earth at the beginning of FotR. He had lots of soldiers, Sarumon and Isengard with its growing industry and a politically disjointed target. He could have easily done it without the Ring.

[CJvR]

Good post on the rings of power Dargos, except that IIRC Sauron left the one ring in Barad Dur when he surrendered to Ar-Pharazon and the Numenoreans and he didn't take it back until his spirit returned from Valinor and took a new shape, the one later destroyed by Isildur.

[NecronLord]

That's all very interesting, Dargo; kudos for you for taking the time to do the research, but I didn't really see anything there that made the Ring an absolute necessity for Sauron's conquest on Middle Earth. The fact that the Elves had begun leaving, that the world of Men was disjointed and factioned and that every race operated on a more or less "every Man/Dwarf/Elf for himself" principle made Middle Earth ripe for conquest by a numerically overwhelming and united force. No special rings would have been needed.

The basic point is that the Ring really gave Sauron nothing that aided his conquest of Middle Earth. He himself was greatly enhanced, but even Sauron is just one guy. Sauron had all that he needed to take over Middle Earth at the beginning of FotR. He had lots of soldiers, Sarumon and Isengard with its growing industry and a politically disjointed target. He could have easily done it without the Ring.

Possibly, but rember he is linked to it, once it was destroyed he was obliterated/sent off into "The Void" Sauron also has various magical powers which would be enhanced by having it. {Maybe he could have gotten himself the few remaining Balrogs as well}

[Durandal]

That's all very interesting, Dargo; kudos for you for taking the time to do the research, but I didn't really see anything there that made the Ring an absolute necessity for Sauron's conquest on Middle Earth. The fact that the Elves had begun leaving, that the world of Men was disjointed and factioned and that every race operated on a more or less "every Man/Dwarf/Elf for himself" principle made Middle Earth ripe for conquest by a numerically overwhelming and united force. No special rings would have been needed.

The basic point is that the Ring really gave Sauron nothing that aided his conquest of Middle Earth. He himself was greatly enhanced, but even Sauron is just one guy. Sauron had all that he needed to take over Middle Earth at the beginning of FotR. He had lots of soldiers, Sarumon and Isengard with its growing industry and a politically disjointed target. He could have easily done it without the Ring.

Possibly, but rember he is linked to it, once it was destroyed he was obliterated/sent off into "The Void" Sauron also has various magical powers which would be enhanced by having it. {Maybe he could have gotten himself the few remaining Balrogs as well}

He didn't get the Balrogs when he first had the Ring, so I don't see any reason to think that he could get them the second time around, either.

[Stormbringer]

That's all very interesting, Dargo; kudos for you for taking the time to do the research, but I didn't really see anything there that made the Ring an absolute necessity for Sauron's conquest on Middle Earth. The fact that the Elves had begun leaving, that the world of Men was disjointed and factioned and that every race operated on a more or less "every Man/Dwarf/Elf for himself" principle made Middle Earth ripe for conquest by a numerically overwhelming and united force. No special rings would have been needed.

The basic point is that the Ring really gave Sauron nothing that aided his conquest of Middle Earth. He himself was greatly enhanced, but even Sauron is just one guy. Sauron had all that he needed to take over Middle Earth at the beginning of FotR. He had lots of soldiers, Sarumon and Isengard with its growing industry and a politically disjointed target. He could have easily done it without the Ring.

Possibly, but rember he is linked to it, once it was destroyed he was obliterated/sent off into "The Void" Sauron also has various magical powers which would be enhanced by having it. {Maybe he could have gotten himself the few remaining Balrogs as well}

He didn't get the Balrogs when he first had the Ring, so I don't see any reason to think that he could get them the second time around, either.

But it does take time to work it's mojo. It took him quite a while to utterly enslave the men that became the Nazgul. To get Maiar or at least former Maiar would take quite a bit of time and effort. He had neither with the Last Alliance breathing down his neck.

[Shadow WarChief]

Sauron wasn't hunting for the One for himself as much as he was hunting to keep it out of the hands of the good guys. Sauron had many enemies–powerful enemies. Sauron knew that some of them could have wielded the one–Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn etc.

If they got the Ring, then Sauron knew that he would be at a disadvantage. He greatly feared that in fact. That's why he launched his assault against Gondor early before his non-ring strength was at its zenith: to claim the ring before the good guys learned how to wield it against him.

[Morning Star]

That's all very interesting, Dargo; kudos for you for taking the time to do the research, but I didn't really see anything there that made the Ring an absolute necessity for Sauron's conquest on Middle Earth. The fact that the Elves had begun leaving, that the world of Men was disjointed and factioned and that every race operated on a more or less "every Man/Dwarf/Elf for himself" principle made Middle Earth ripe for conquest by a numerically overwhelming and united force. No special rings would have been needed.

The basic point is that the Ring really gave Sauron nothing that aided his conquest of Middle Earth. He himself was greatly enhanced, but even Sauron is just one guy. Sauron had all that he needed to take over Middle Earth at the beginning of FotR. He had lots of soldiers, Sarumon and Isengard with its growing industry and a politically disjointed target. He could have easily done it without the Ring.

Of course he could have, but the point is he only had one weakness left: he needed it to be taken care of. As shown in RotK, although his defenses held against the Captains of the West, he was still defeated because of that weakness. That was the reason it was so imprtant to his plans for dominion. Plus he needed it like we need a head, it was part of him, and even Sauron could not break it's spell of desire that it put upon him.

Plus we must remember that he would not have moved at the time he did except for the fact that he was confused and frightened as to the whereabouts of the One and the situation with Saruman and Gondor. If he was entirley ready to storm middle earth then why didn't he move during FotR? Why was he still reluctant to make war even at the time of RotK? Just things to think about.

Sauron wasn't hunting for the One for himself as much as he was hunting to keep it out of the hands of the good guys. Sauron had many enemies–powerful enemies. Sauron knew that some of them could have wielded the one–Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn etc.

If they got the Ring, then Sauron knew that he would be at a disadvantage. He greatly feared that in fact. That's why he launched his assault against Gondor early before his non-ring strength was at its zenith: to claim the ring before the good guys learned how to wield it against him.

But you forget, that although he realised that the One could greatly enhance the forces of his enemies. In the end the One only served one master, there could only be one Lord of the Rings. Before long the One would betray it's user, turning him into something dark and full of cruelty and malice and fear, and then they would be Sauron's.

But it does take time to work it's mojo. It took him quite a while to utterly enslave the men that became the Nazgul. To get Maiar or at least former Maiar would take quite a bit of time and effort. He had neither with the Last Alliance breathing down his neck.

But the fact that they both share the same master didn't bring them around to each others side during the War of Last Alliance. Even with Morgoth locked in the void, the Balrogs still served him and him alone, and there were very few of them left anyway. Most of the Dragons and Balrogs fell at the War of Wrath, which explains why Sauron had to create new weapons of war in the Uruk-hai and the Olog-hai.


Following Dargos' lead, I've decided to show some of the history of Sauron:


SO it is written that of old there was Sauron the Maia, known also at other times by sundry races as the Enemy, the Deceiver, the Dark Lord of Mordor, Gorthaur, the Black Hand, the Lidless Eye, the Lord of the Rings, Gorthû and the Nameless One. Sauron, meaning "the abhorred", was a master deceiver and so was even called for a time Annatar, "the giver of gifts".


All these names are names of dread in the lore of the wise, for they belong to a dread spirit whose everlasting fall into the orbit of Melkor's undying evil came to pass ere the world was first shaped by Eru. At first a Maia spirit of the Vala called Aulë, Sauron became Melkor's foremost lieutenant during the Ages of Darkness, and had full command of the icy realm of Angband in the north of Middle-earth on into the Ages of Stars. Over thousands of years Sauron besteaded his forold master with a loyalty none could sway, and was to be seen at the van of many a fell thrust upon the field in time of warfare against the enemies of the Arda's original Enemy. Yet open battle was not where Sauron worked his worst; rather, it was under cloak of shadow and lie, looking as one who is fair whilst wiles of wickedness wheeled within. Of all the Maiar Sauron was the most mighty, a shape shifting sorcerer who has taken on the most forms and shades, donning the body of wolf, serpent, and vampire as well as the aspects of Elf, friend, ally, and unseen spectre.
When the War of Wrath was unleashed and Melkor (then known as Morgoth) was defeated and cast forever out into the Void by the Valar at the end of the First Age, Sauron at first seemed repentant and willing to make amends for his long history of misdeeds. When told, however, that he must betake himself to Valinor and face the judgement of Manwë, he grew afraid and slipped away to the far east of the mortal lands to hide in shadows until it became evident that the Valar had largely removed themselves from the affairs of Middle-earth. Perceiving a vacuum he yearned to fill, he emerged again in the fifth century of the Second Age in the shape of a mysterious Elf going by the name Annatar. After a thousand years of walking among the Noldor, he taught the Elven-smiths dwelling in Eregion the craft of ring making, and got them to forge waxingly cunning rings harbouring magical abilities until at last the art was honed to uttermost keenness and the Rings of Power were wrought.

Sauron then made himself lord of these Great Rings through the creation of the One Ring using the fires of Mount Doom in the land of Mordor. The Rings of Power were to be used, or so the Elves had hoped, to lift Middle-earth above barbarism and want, and shape it as a land whose richness and beauty would rival that of Valinor itself. Soon they sensed the treachery, however, and took off their rings lest they become thralls to the One Ring made to rule them all. Angered by the unyielding Elves of Eregion, Sauron made war upon them with an unforgiving onslaught of beastly hosts, and recovered the Nine Great Rings as well as the Seven, but the Three which he had no hand in forging and so were still pure were hidden beyond his grasp and never worn so long as the Dark Lord possessed the One.
The Nine he gave to mortal Men doomed to die. These Men became great sorcerers in their time, wielding powers which they could not resist so that after long centuries their spirits succumbed wholly to the will of the One, and they faded from the world of the living to walk as wraiths whose very breath was of pure terror.

The Seven the Dark Lord gave to the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, and though he reaped some behoof from the seeds of dissent his influence sowed between Dwarves and other folk, he nonetheless found them to be stubborn and hard to bend to his will. The Dwarf-lords used the powers of their rings to build hoards of treasure, which the Dragons later plundered, and four of the Seven were consumed by their fire while the rest Sauron gathered back to himself.
The One Sauron kept upon his own finger, and he used it to consolidate his power in Mordor and expand his dominion over the barbarians dwelling in the lands of Middle-earth, which were far from the seashores. At last the Númenóreans launched a massive invasion, which forced his surrender and resulted in his capture and imprisonment. Foolishly these long-lived and mighty Men brought the sorcerer back to the island of Westernesse, and their king often lent him his ear and so over time became seduced by Sauron's webs of trickery. Though a prisoner, Sauron was nonetheless in a better position to undo his foes than he ever was as a sovereign tyrant in the heart of Middle-earth. He convinced the Númenóreans to set sail for the land of Aman which was forbidden to mortals, and so brought upon them the wrath of Iluvatar which sunk all the island of Númenor to the bottom of the sea. Sauron's body was also destroyed during this cataclysm, and ever after he lost the ability to assume fair form, and so instead appeared in forms foul, burnt, and encased in armour. Taking up again the reins of terror in the Black Land, he strove to conquer all Middle-earth by attrition over the course of centuries, but the Last Alliance of Men and Elves broke him, and the One Ring was cut from his hand while his spirit was borne by a gale of thwarted lusting toward the south of Mirkwood where he became known as the Necromancer of Dol Guldur throughout much of the Third Age by those who did not recognize him for what he was.

Two thousand years passed before Sauron arose once again and took his place within the bitter crown of the newly rebuilt Barad-dûr in Mordor. War began, and a combined army of Men of Rohan and Gondor, led by the heir of Isildur and King Theoden assaulted Mordor… and it looked as if all was lost for they could not breach the gates. But the day was won: two Hobbits of whom none had thought of, Frodo and his servant Sam, marched alone to Mordor and up on to Mount Doom itself…and cast the ring into the Mountain, removing Sauron’s power and turning him into a memory of malice only. The Enemy of the free peoples of Middle-earth: Sauron the deceiver; was defeated. The War of the Ring was swift and bloody, and ended in the final defeat of Melkor's most terrible commander

[Shadow WarChief]

But you forget, that although he realised that the One could greatly enhance the forces of his enemies. In the end the One only served one master, there could only be one Lord of the Rings. Before long the One would betray it's user, turning him into something dark and full of cruelty and malice and fear, and then they would be Sauron's.

True: If someone powerful enough to wield the One with a reasonable degree of success got a hold of it they would become a dark lord themselves.

But nowhere was it said that the wielder would then fall under the thrall of Sauron.

[Morning Star]

True: If someone powerful enough to wield the One with a reasonable degree of success got a hold of it they would become a dark lord themselves.

But nowhere was it said that the wielder would then fall under the thrall of Sauron.

But it couldn't be used by any other: There is only one lord of the rings, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power. The One was made by Sauron, for Sauron. Only he could use it, others would fall under its spell. The One yearned to return to Gorthaur as much as he wanted it back again.

[NeoGoomba]

You have to remember that even with the Ring at his command, Sauron was not invincible, nor were his forces. Twice before the Last Alliance he was humbled by Numenor. The first time Numenor sent forces against him, Sauron lost his entire northern army. The second time Numenor went after him, the force they sent was so powerful, numerous and awe-inspiring that Sauron himself believed that victory could not be reached, and his own servants would desert him in fear. And when they called him out, he came and surrendered (as part of his schemes, yet still he waved the white flag).


Sauron sought order through sublety and manipulation. That was how he always accomplished his goals. When commisioned by Morgoth to find Beren, instead of sending out a massive wave of werewolves, orcs, and dragons, Sauron used a single wraith to lure the weakest of Beren's group into his clutches.

When he wanted to control Middle Earth, he at first tried it through deceit and deception. He ensured that the most powerful Elf lords would wear a Ring of Power that he designed. Then he set his trap for them by using his Deus Ex Machina, the One Ring, to control anyone who wore a Ring of Power. Only when this failed did he use force.

When he saw firsthand the might of Numenor, a nation he hated with a passion, and beheld the power that the Kings possesed, he used his powers of influence and persuasion to rise from Numenor's Public Enemy #1 to Chief Counsellor of the King in less than a year. In this position he achieved the literal physical destruction of Numenor by pitting Men against gods, ensuring their destruction.


He seems to me to be more the cunning leader than a champion or great general, similar to Palpatine I suppose.

[Morning Star]

You have to remember that even with the Ring at his command, Sauron was not invincible, nor were his forces. Twice before the Last Alliance he was humbled by Numenor. The first time Numenor sent forces against him, Sauron lost his entire northern army. The second time Numenor went after him, the force they sent was so powerful, numerous and awe-inspiring that Sauron himself believed that victory could not be reached, and his own servants would desert him in fear. And when they called him out, he came and surrendered (as part of his schemes, yet still he waved the white flag).

He never surrendered. He came and payed homage to the King. Even though he did this the only reason was because he believed he could do more damage to the men of Westernesse from the inside. if he had wanted to escape, he could have fled to the east.

You have to remember that he was only just beginning to re-build his forces as he was only now sure that Valinor had ceased their watch of Midlle-earth. He was not at full strength, hardly a power at all. Numenor had not warred against any major power ever.

Sauron sought order through sublety and manipulation. That was how he always accomplished his goals. When commisioned by Morgoth to find Beren, instead of sending out a massive wave of werewolves, orcs, and dragons, Sauron used a single wraith to lure the weakest of Beren's group into his clutches.

But he was also a great general and warrior. Although deception was his main means: as seen by his Sindarin name of Gorthaur the Deceiver, he could take on the form of many great beasts: black-iron Kings, werewolves, vampires, serpents... and he was the lieutennant of Angband before utumno's fall.

When he wanted to control Middle Earth, he at first tried it through deceit and deception. He ensured that the most powerful Elf lords would wear a Ring of Power that he designed. Then he set his trap for them by using his Deus Ex Machina, the One Ring, to control anyone who wore a Ring of Power. Only when this failed did he use force.

Which shows that he could: ie. War of Ainur and Morgoth, War of Wrath, War of Elves against Sauron, War of the Last Alliance, War of the Ring. You have to see the facts, he was a great leader.

When he saw firsthand the might of Numenor, a nation he hated with a passion, and beheld the power that the Kings possesed, he used his powers of influence and persuasion to rise from Numenor's Public Enemy #1 to Chief Counsellor of the King in less than a year. In this position he achieved the literal physical destruction of Numenor by pitting Men against gods, ensuring their destruction.

Point being? he was still freshly returned from hiding at that time.

He seems to me to be more the cunning leader than a champion or great general, similar to Palpatine I suppose.

Only because he fears the Valar... he never really got over melkor's undoing at the War of Wrath.

[NeoGoomba]

You have to remember that he was only just beginning to re-build his forces as he was only now sure that Valinor had ceased their watch of Midlle-earth. He was not at full strength, hardly a power at all. Numenor had not warred against any major power ever

This was while his kingdom was spread massively to the East, wasn't it? Composed of Harad, Tharkun (I think, don't have a map or anything handy), felt secure enough to declare himself "King of Men", and begain to assail Numenor's holdings on the coast. He was stronger than you give him credit for. He had already ravaged Eregion, and driven the Elves in the North to either Imladris of the Havens.

But he was also a great general and warrior. Although deception was his main means: as seen by his Sindarin name of Gorthaur the Deceiver, he could take on the form of many great beasts: black-iron Kings, werewolves, vampires, serpents... and he was the lieutennant of Angband before utumno's fall

Then why was he never mentioned to have taken part in any of the Great Battles of the First Age? He was never really a proven warrior. He lost to Huan (albeit because of his pride in thinking he could kill Huan. That was more fate working against him than anything), and he was defeated by Elendil and Gil-Galad. It was always Gothmog who was Morgoth's muscle. He killed Feanor, he killed Fingon. And if I recall, it was he who led the assault into Gondolin, not Sauron. And I thought it was Gorthaur the Cruel, not Deceiver. But then again, we could both be right, as Sauron had so many different names and titles

Which shows that he could: ie. War of Ainur and Morgoth, War of Wrath, War of Elves against Sauron, War of the Last Alliance, War of the Ring. You have to see the facts, he was a great leader

I am giving him credit as a leader. But on a full scale military strategy there was really nothing impressive to his method other than multi-pronged attacks with overwhelming numbers.

Point being? he was still freshly returned from hiding at that time.

He was still freshly returned from hiding, sure. To the point, as mentioned before, where he had called himself "King of Men" and was attacking Numenoranan cities. And its not like it was the first time Sauron and Numenor came to blows. They knew who he was, and he was still able to rise so high so fast. My point is how subtle and dangerous he was in a behind-the-scenes role. I'm not detracting from him.

[Shadow WarChief]

But it couldn't be used by any other: There is only one lord of the rings, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power. The One was made by Sauron, for Sauron. Only he could use it, others would fall under its spell. The One yearned to return to Gorthaur as much as he wanted it back again.

Despite what the movie Gandalf said, it was made clear in the books that while the good guys could not know all of the uses of the ring (only Sauron could not all its uses), they could still learn enough to bitch slap ol' Dark and Nasty if they actually decided to use it.

[Morning Star]

This was while his kingdom was spread massively to the East, wasn't it? Composed of Harad, Tharkun (I think, don't have a map or anything handy), felt secure enough to declare himself "King of Men", and begain to assail Numenor's holdings on the coast. He was stronger than you give him credit for. He had already ravaged Eregion, and driven the Elves in the North to either Imladris of the Havens.

No it wasn't spread massivley to the east. He was still consoldiating his power amongst the Haradrim, easterlings, and the Dark Numenoreans. he was pushed back though in the war of Elves against sauron though and so shows that he could not stand up to the High king yet. And the Numenorean holdings on Middle-earth were nowhere near as strong as the isle of westernesse. They were but colonies in comparison.

Then why was he never mentioned to have taken part in any of the Great Battles of the First Age? He was never really a proven warrior. He lost to Huan (albeit because of his pride in thinking he could kill Huan. That was more fate working against him than anything), and he was defeated by Elendil and Gil-Galad. It was always Gothmog who was Morgoth's muscle. He killed Feanor, he killed Fingon. And if I recall, it was he who led the assault into Gondolin, not Sauron. And I thought it was Gorthaur the Cruel, not Deceiver. But then again, we could both be right, as Sauron had so many different names and titles

He controlled the armies of Angband during the wars of the Vala and Wrath and was lieutennant to all of the Black Enemie's forces. Higher than gothmog, who was only lord of Balrogs. He was not proven in hand to hand combat if you judge by victories but he was still a great tactician.

I am giving him credit as a leader. But on a full scale military strategy there was really nothing impressive to his method other than multi-pronged attacks with overwhelming numbers.

Nothing impressive? Who do you think was commanding the armies of morgoth against the Noldor?

He was still freshly returned from hiding, sure. To the point, as mentioned before, where he had called himself "King of Men" and was attacking Numenoranan cities. And its not like it was the first time Sauron and Numenor came to blows. They knew who he was, and he was still able to rise so high so fast. My point is how subtle and dangerous he was in a behind-the-scenes role.

He was only just feeling confident at that point, when he realised the Vala had turned from Tantiquetal and Numenor were no longer expanding into ME. And it was King of all Men, that's why Ar-Pharazon felt the need to prove himself. And if he was so powerful at the time why did his armies run and why did he kneel before the King of the Men of the Sea? He paled in comparison at that time to anything more powerful than the Men of the East. We must remember, no one was giving any attention to ME at the time, that was why he could ravage the lands in the west with little defiance.

I'm not detracting from him

You better not be!

* shakes fist*

[Morning Star]

But it couldn't be used by any other: There is only one lord of the rings, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power. The One was made by Sauron, for Sauron. Only he could use it, others would fall under its spell. The One yearned to return to Gorthaur as much as he wanted it back again.

Despite what the movie Gandalf said, it was made clear in the books that while the good guys could not know all of the uses of the ring (only Sauron could not all its uses), they could still learn enough to bitch slap ol' Dark and Nasty if they actually decided to use it.

And yet still Gollum could not become anything more than a sulky and pathetic creature living in the Mountains. It depends on who you are to begin with in the first place. It was made clear in the book that although only Sauron could use it to its full potential, if you were powerful enough to begin with (istari, lets say) then it would twist you into a Dark lord. But the One bowed to the Enemy's commands even when it was seperated from him. (as seen by it moving through the mountains to return to the Black Land on its own)

If we realise this, then you can see it served He alone.

[lgot]

That's all very interesting, Dargo; kudos for you for taking the time to do the research, but I didn't really see anything there that made the Ring an absolute necessity for Sauron's conquest on Middle Earth.

The ring was necessary yes. It would make everything easier and since Sauron Lost when the ring was destroyed, It is clear that the help of the ring would be very welcome.

For once Sauron needed the ring because, despite what some said, he was not yet full in his power. He was just the best shape since Ilsudur got the ring. There is one thing needed lacking: the ring. With the ring and only the ring Sauron would be fully in his power. That is why he wanted it so bad. After all, The ring was part of him. You would want your right arm back if you had the chance, dont you ?

For the future conquest of the place ?
look what Dargos wrote:
"With the One, his Eye would have seen every thought or action anywhere in Middle-earth; no secret could have been kept from him and no one could have withstood him"

You will say that Is not the greatest militar advantage ever ? Knowing everything happening ? The ring would be of much help.
Plus, Sauron did not dared to leave with his full power.
Plus and most important. Having the one ring would make the Defeat of Galadriel and Elrond (By that time, The only other 2 with some power to defeat him) easy. Why ? Because they both used their rings to keep their kingdom safe. But they do not dared to use the rings when Sauron had the one. As Soon Sauron recovers the One Ring they would fear again and stop using the rings. The protection that Keep their kingdoms would fade and they would have to defend the kingdoms against Sauron, Saruman without any help of humans and with a diminished army, since the majority of great elfs are gone and they would never be able to rebuild the defenses they had in the past.
The ring is plot device ? Of course! It is a plot after all. hobbits are plot devices. Saruman is a plot device. Galadriel is a plot device. But it is not lost plot device, without any tie or logic. The ring was needed but not for vain and silly reasons.
It was weapon...As much one can say that "words" are the weapon of Darth Wong. Other than that, It was a very powerful magic item.

The basic point is that the Ring really gave Sauron nothing that aided his conquest of Middle Earth. He himself was greatly enhanced, but even Sauron is just one guy. Sauron had all that he needed to take over Middle Earth at the beginning of FotR. He had lots of soldiers, Sarumon and Isengard with its growing industry and a politically disjointed target. He could have easily done it without the Ring.

Just he didnt. He would even try to do it without the ring, after all, It is the ring that shows up alone, Its the ring that make the way to Mordor. Sauron hardly used resourses to track the ring. He send the Nazguls and Saruman send some soldiers. But at time, he should have, after all the members of Fellowship ended helping to unite the politics of the elfs/humans and Gandalf pretty much united it. If Saruman had killed Gandalf in the Tower or with the Balrog (not Saruman actually), There would be no organized and united resistense and he would have won.
But the main thing is: With what he have in the FoTR he lost. Not Won. It was not Sauron's fault the defeat and the formation of the army in the third book. It was out of his control.

[Shadow WarChief]

But the One bowed to the Enemy's commands even when it was seperated from him. (as seen by it moving through the mountains to return to the Black Land on its own)

If we realise this, then you can see it served He alone.

Let's not kid ourselves here. The extent of the one rings control of it's own physical location is limited to growing in size to slip off a finger or causing it's bearer to have the desire to put it on to call the Nazgûl to it.

Never has it demonstrated the ability to conciously leave the hand of it's wearer and then trek across middle earth to get to barad-dûr.

If Sauron had actually expected the ring to come back to him if one of the Wise put it on, then Gandalf sure as hell wouldn't have called it "His great fear".

[daonesith]

.lol.

[NeoGoomba]

He controlled the armies of Angband during the wars of the Vala and Wrath and was lieutennant to all of the Black Enemie's forces. Higher than gothmog, who was only lord of Balrogs. He was not proven in hand to hand combat if you judge by victories but he was still a great tactician.

I'm sorry, but your going to have to show me specific instances of his great use of tactics. The only time in the First Age where anything remotely resembling good tactical usage by the Host of Morgoth was when Ulfang turned against the Edain and Eldar and assaulted them from behind.

Nothing impressive? Who do you think was commanding the armies of morgoth against the Noldor?

Easy. There was never any awesome, undefeatable grand military strategy other then "overwhelm the Sons of Feanor with massive numbers" or "harass them with raiding parties". Again, show me specific examples of Sauron personally demonstrating great tactics and strategic thinking.

He was only just feeling confident at that point, when he realised the Vala had turned from Tantiquetal and Numenor were no longer expanding into ME.

And why did he not feel confidant after trashing Eregion and Moria and forging the One Ring? Why did it take so long after he had openly declared himself to feel confident?

And if he was so powerful at the time why did his armies run and why did he kneel before the King of the Men of the Sea? He paled in comparison at that time to anything more powerful than the Men of the East.

Because Numenor was immensely more powerful than Mordor? The title was "King of Men", not "King of Men in the East". It was all-inclusive, Middle Earth and Numenor alike.

We must remember, no one was giving any attention to ME at the time, that was why he could ravage the lands in the west with little defiance.

"For Pharazon, son of Gimlikhad had become a man yet more restless and eager for wealth and power than his father. He had fared often abroad, in the wars that the Numenoreans made in the coastlines of Middle Earth"

"For he had larned in Middle Earth of the strength of the realm of Sauron, and of his hatred of the Westernesse. And now there came to him the Masters of ships and Captains returning out of the East, and they reported that Sauron was putting forth his might, since Ar-Pharazon had gone back from Middle Earth, and he was pressing down upon the cities by the coasts; and he had taken now the title of King of Men, and declared his purpose to drive the Numenoreans into the sea and destroy Numenor, if that might be"

Numenor always had a vested interest in Middle Earth, and even during the days of Elros they sailed there often, at first in friendship, then as tyrants. And Sauron knew full well who he was comparing himself too when he gave himself the King of Men title.

[Ted C]

The One Ring grants its wearer power in proportion to the wearer's ability. Alas, we've never seen what happens when its worn by anyone but a naive hobbit.

However, you might consider that a pretty naive hobbit, Bilbo Baggins, was able to put the Ring on and almost single-handedly defeat a nest full of giant spiders with nothing but a long dagger (albeit one of Elvish make) and thrown rocks...

[Morning Star]

But the One bowed to the Enemy's commands even when it was seperated from him. (as seen by it moving through the mountains to return to the Black Land on its own)

If we realise this, then you can see it served He alone.

Let's not kid ourselves here. The extent of the one rings control of it's own physical location is limited to growing in size to slip off a finger or causing it's bearer to have the desire to put it on to call the Nazgûl to it.

Never has it demonstrated the ability to conciously leave the hand of it's wearer and then trek across middle earth to get to barad-dûr.

If Sauron had actually expected the ring to come back to him if one of the Wise put it on, then Gandalf sure as hell wouldn't have called it "His great fear".

Um, then you've obviously forgotten how it got from Gollum's island in the caves, swam through the water and began to climb up through the tunnels then? It had a will of its own.

The One Ring grants its wearer power in proportion to the wearer's ability. Alas, we've never seen what happens when its worn by anyone but a naive hobbit.

However, you might consider that a pretty naive hobbit, Bilbo Baggins, was able to put the Ring on and almost single-handedly defeat a nest full of giant spiders with nothing but a long dagger (albeit one of Elvish make) and thrown rocks...

What he said ^

And why did he not feel confidant after trashing Eregion and Moria and forging the One Ring? Why did it take so long after he had openly declared himself to feel confident?

For six hundred years, he pursued a dual strategy. In the guise of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, he tutored the Elves of Eregion, teaching them the secret things that only a Maia of Aulë's people could know. From his lore, the Rings of Power were forged, but while he worked with the Elves, he continued the fortification of Mordor to make it an unassailable stronghold.

In the fire-mountain of Orodruin, he secretly forged the One Ring. This was to be the first stroke in his conquest of the west - a device by which he could know, and control, the thoughts of the bearers of the other Rings. His plan failed, though: the Elves became aware of his malevolent presence, and took off their Rings.

Angered by this setback, Sauron loosed the hordes of Mordor, six hundred years in the building, and overran Eriador, destroying the land of Eregion where the Rings were made. The Elves called on Númenor for aid, though, and the army of Tar-Minastir put Sauron's forces to rout. After this reverse, Sauron sought instead to build power in the eastern countries, and left the Westlands in peace for many centuries.

Easy. There was never any awesome, undefeatable grand military strategy other then "overwhelm the Sons of Feanor with massive numbers" or "harass them with raiding parties". Again, show me specific examples of Sauron personally demonstrating great tactics and strategic thinking.

Do not try to make it seem as if he showed no greatness, yes, his main ideas were always subterfuge and using other ways than open war: but he held off the greatest Noldor army ever seen when Morgoth left to find the Men awakening in the east, and then after he returned as well. You comments about how his tactics were obviously rubbish is so bias its unbelievable. They worked. The sons of Feanor never took the realms of the black. Oh, here's a victory:

Though Sauron doubtless continued his evil works in the service of his lord, we hear nothing of these for many centuries after the return of Morgoth, until the days after the Dagor Bragollach. For two years after the Dagor Bragollach itself, Finrod's tower of Minas Tirith had guarded the Pass of Sirion against Morgoth's forces. In 457 (First Age), Sauron himself came against the tower; he cast a spell of fear upon the Elves who held it, and they were slain or fled back to Finrod in Nargothrond.

Sauron then took Minas Tirith to dwell in, and watched the Pass of Sirion himself from its topmost tower. The isle on which it stood, which had been called Tol Sirion, was renamed Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves.

My question to you is: what is your point? What is your opinion?

Because Numenor was immensely more powerful than Mordor? The title was "King of Men", not "King of Men in the East". It was all-inclusive, Middle Earth and Numenor alike.

That was my point.

.lol.

Are you a troll or something?

Numenor always had a vested interest in Middle Earth, and even during the days of Elros they sailed there often, at first in friendship, then as tyrants. And Sauron knew full well who he was comparing himself too when he gave himself the King of Men title.

Yes he did, my point being that, as you have already shown, he was not yet powerful enough to challenge them.[/b]

[NeoGoomba]

Okay, here we go again

I'll get this one out of the way first, as its probably most important.

My question to you is: what is your point? What is your opinion?

That Sauron is more of a cunning political leader and a personal force of nature rather than a straight up military prodigy. Believe me, I really like Sauron. You notice at SB.com he's my avatar, and in any "Sauron vs..." I go with Sauron. But his military strategy was quite basic. It was so successful in every event because he simply had an immense military war machine behind it. Of course, overwhelming force usually needs no tactics, but still


Now...

*snip* Angered by this setback, Sauron loosed the hordes of Mordor, six hundred years in the building, and overran Eriador, destroying the land of Eregion where the Rings were made. The Elves called on Númenor for aid, though, and the army of Tar-Minastir put Sauron's forces to rout. After this reverse, Sauron sought instead to build power in the eastern countries, and left the Westlands in peace for many centuries.

Why are you posting this? It is somewhat undermining one of your previous points. Namely: "We must remember, no one was giving any attention to ME at the time, that was why he could ravage the lands in the west with little defiance"

Numenor had ALWAYS had dealings with Middle Earth. From Elros to Pharazon. They always had a presence in the West. That was where their great coast fortress of Umbar was (think that was it, before it fell into the hands of Sauron's allies).

And how can you contend that Sauron was weak at this time? He had over twice the amount of prep time between his dealings with Numenor than he did when he was taking on the Elves.

Do not try to make it seem as if he showed no greatness, yes, his main ideas were always subterfuge and using other ways than open war: but he held off the greatest Noldor army ever seen when Morgoth left to find the Men awakening in the east, and then after he returned as well. You comments about how his tactics were obviously rubbish is so bias its unbelievable. They worked

I have never said he showed no greatness. As I've pointed out before, when it came down to it, his main military tactics were simply to overwhelm his opponents. Thats not bad, it just shows a lack of real military strategy. Look at General Patton Jr. A fantastic leader, a man who could sway the hearts of many. He was reckoned a great leader and General, even though he had poor (comparatively) tactics and overall strategy. He was still badass, as is Sauron.

The sons of Feanor never took the realms of the black.

Because they almost never took the initiative and seldom took offensive action in the first place. How is that Sauron's strategy at work? It was due more to Morgoth's lies that the Eldar and Edain faltered.

Oh, here's a victory:
Though Sauron doubtless continued his evil works in the service of his lord, we hear nothing of these for many centuries after the return of Morgoth, until the days after the Dagor Bragollach. For two years after the Dagor Bragollach itself, Finrod's tower of Minas Tirith had guarded the Pass of Sirion against Morgoth's forces. In 457 (First Age), Sauron himself came against the tower; he cast a spell of fear upon the Elves who held it, and they were slain or fled back to Finrod in Nargothrond.

Sauron then took Minas Tirith to dwell in, and watched the Pass of Sirion himself from its topmost tower. The isle on which it stood, which had been called Tol Sirion, was renamed Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves.[/i][/quote]

A nice victory, taking a solitary fortress. Of course, we don't know if he came just by himself (which would have been pretty cool, I must admit), or at the head of an army.

my point being that, as you have already shown, he was not yet powerful enough to challenge them.

Yet you stated that no one was watching Middle Earth, and that Sauron was merely attacking simple colonies, when in fact he had basically declared war on Numenor. Since he was so defeated without a single battle the second time, it goes to show a LACK of military strategy. Why did he not send spies to Numenor to gauge their strength? By foolhardily attacking an unknown foe, he comitted a massive military blunder. "Know your foe" is the most basic of military teachings, and Sauron tossed that one out the window. He had over a thousand years, a THOUSAND, between his rout at Minastir's hand and him challenging Pharazon. Not once in that millenea did he take a look at who he was fighting? That is horrible planning. At least in the First Age Morgoth knew all of his enemies movements and plans.

[Morning Star]

Here we go again indeed...

As a forenote I'd like to say that I'm enjoying this debate although at times I forget what side I'm debating on... I think I just like debating in and of itself. Lets continue, shall we;

That Sauron is more of a cunning political leader and a personal force of nature rather than a straight up military prodigy. Believe me, I really like Sauron. You notice at SB.com he's my avatar, and in any "Sauron vs..." I go with Sauron. But his military strategy was quite basic. It was so successful in every event because he simply had an immense military war machine behind it. Of course, overwhelming force usually needs no tactics, but still

Then we are agreed.

Why are you posting this? It is somewhat undermining one of your previous points. Namely: "We must remember, no one was giving any attention to ME at the time, that was why he could ravage the lands in the west with little defiance"

Numenor had ALWAYS had dealings with Middle Earth. From Elros to Pharazon. They always had a presence in the West. That was where their great coast fortress of Umbar was (think that was it, before it fell into the hands of Sauron's allies).

And how can you contend that Sauron was weak at this time? He had over twice the amount of prep time between his dealings with Numenor than he did when he was taking on the Elves.

My point being that although here was little resistance and his strength was great, he paled in comparison to the might of Numenor and so was weak...when you look at the grand scale of things. Remember:

After the War of Wrath and the defeat of his master Morgoth, Sauron fled for a time into the east of the world.2 A period of one thousand years followed in which Sauron was not seen in the west of Middle-earth. As the first millennium of the Second Age turned, Sauron came back. He took the fenced and mountainous land of Mordor, and there began building his mighty Dark Tower of Barad-dûr.
The beginning of Sauron's reign as Dark Lord can be dated from this time: he set himself no less a goal than the conquest of Middle-earth, and perhaps even of Númenor itself.

In comparison to his objectives, he was weak.

I have never said he showed no greatness. As I've pointed out before, when it came down to it, his main military tactics were simply to overwhelm his opponents. Thats not bad, it just shows a lack of real military strategy. Look at General Patton Jr. A fantastic leader, a man who could sway the hearts of many. He was reckoned a great leader and General, even though he had poor (comparatively) tactics and overall strategy. He was still badass, as is Sauron.

Agreed.

Because they almost never took the initiative and seldom took offensive action in the first place. How is that Sauron's strategy at work? It was due more to Morgoth's lies that the Eldar and Edain faltered.

Shut up. That's why.

What I meant that was although he has never won a war... although he would of won the War of the Rings if it had not been for that bastard Frodo... he still managed to defend Angband from the Noldor while Morgoth left to find allies in the men of east. It should also be noted however, that Sauron's style of planning and attacking from within also explains why on multiple occasions he left the world to hide in the far east, and then returned when the world had grown weak.

A nice victory, taking a solitary fortress. Of course, we don't know if he came just by himself (which would have been pretty cool, I must admit), or at the head of an army.

True, though we can gather that it was taken through Sauron's use of spells, not by force of arms. Which once again shows his nature of avoiding open war when possible.

Yet you stated that no one was watching Middle Earth, and that Sauron was merely attacking simple colonies, when in fact he had basically declared war on Numenor. Since he was so defeated without a single battle the second time, it goes to show a LACK of military strategy. Why did he not send spies to Numenor to gauge their strength? By foolhardily attacking an unknown foe, he comitted a massive military blunder. "Know your foe" is the most basic of military teachings, and Sauron tossed that one out the window. He had over a thousand years, a THOUSAND, between his rout at Minastir's hand and him challenging Pharazon. Not once in that millenea did he take a look at who he was fighting? That is horrible planning. At least in the First Age Morgoth knew all of his enemies movements and plans.

Yes they was a lack of watch in Middle-earth, Numenor only came there to do battle when, at first, the Noldor asked them to, and the second time, when he openly attacked their colonies. before he had used raiders and wild men, this was open assault. And yet when Ar-Pharazon came to ME, Sauron realised that he could break them from the inside.

Afternote What if: Lets say that the One had not been found and Sauron resolved to use force of arms to conquer ME without the One. Now let's say that Saruman was defeated by the ents and huorns just like in the book, and the Captains of the West could not breakthe Morannon.

Do you believe Middle-earth would have been able to stop him after those events? Most of the Elves had left, there were few Ents, but the realm of men was uniting quickly... what would happen?