Homosexual Self Hatred - Is it that bad?

[Stravo]

With all the news lately dealing with men who were obviously extremely closeted homosexuals that have been exposed as working dirtectly against the causes near and dear to homosexuality such as Gay Marriage and equal rights in general (i.e. Mark Foley and the minister and his homosexual prostitutes) I have to ask the question. Is homosexual self loathing and denial in some extremely closeted individuals that bad that you would actively hurt other homosexuals?

I ask this because I'm wondering what the thought processes are in an individual like the minister who was a champion of the fight against gay marriage. He knows he's gay. He doesn't want anyone else to know he's gay. So his response is to then...opress all gays?? I don't get that at all. if I was a closeted gay man I would just be focussed on keeping my secret and let other homosexuals do as they will, none of my concern.

A homosexual friend of mine when I asked him what the deal was with the Foley and any homosexual in the Republican party in general he replied that I have no idea just how much these guys hate themselves and by extension other gays.

Anyone else want to weigh in or illuminate me on this?

[PeZook]

Religious indotrinaction already emphasizes that you - as a person - are a filthy sinner, who deserves nothing less than to burn in Hell, unless you do what the religion proscribes you to do. So anyone who was indoctrinated since childbirth into thinking that he would go to hell if he slipped up, already thinks of himself as morally weak, needing guidance and strict rules.

Then it turns out that he is a homosexual - a grave sin, which automatically damns you to hell unless you can somehow "become" heterosexual. Of course, it's impossible to simply "will" yourself to change your sexual orientation - therefore, the man in question becomes desperate. He hates himself, because he is attracted to men, and cannot do anything about it. He hates himself because he sins before his God and is damned for an eternity of torment.

By extension, he starts hating other homosexuals, because he perceives them exactly as he does himself - as a sinner, destined to burn in hell for eternity. Perhaps he hopes, secretly, that it is indeed possible to just will a change into a heterosexual from his state, just that he is too weak to do so - and hopes that if homosexuality is banned, someone will prove to him that yes, it's possible, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Add to this the fact that he wants to keep his secret - and who is going to suspect a champion of the cause of persecution against gays? The stronger he persecutes others, the less likely it is that his congregation will suspect himself.

At least, that's my take on what goes through the minds of such people. Don't try to take it at face value, and criticism is welcome

[Surlethe]

They don't try to oppress homosexuals because they hate themselves, they try to oppress homosexuals because that's one of the necessary conditions for their beliefs. Whether or not the person doing the oppressing is a closet homosexual is completely irrelevant to the conservative evangelical mindset; what matters is that homosexuality not be socially acceptable because the Bible says so.

They loathe themselves because (in addition to the conviction that they're sinners) they believe that they really ought to suppress their homosexuality, since they believe it's a choice and it's possible to choose not to be homosexual.

[Lagmonster]

Don't forget that a Christian gay might believe he can fight his homosexuality, suppress it, and in doing so recieve penance and forgiveness for his 'sin' (a good Christian gay doesn't believe gayness is genetic, merely a sinful temptation).

One of the important things about religious indoctrination and guilt is that they are layered in and learned in most kids long before sexual identity is.

[Max]

I dated someone with the self hating problem. He is in the military, and a lawyer, and votes republican. Very much the opposite of me, but when we were alone together, we clicked very well. However, in public it was more difficult. He refused to ever admit that he was "gay" (even in private). It was very very difficult, and just from that experience I can safely say that it is indeed bad, especially in a reltionship setting. It's not only unhealty for that person, but the people around him/her are affected as well. Although he and I still talk on the phone regularly, we don't really see each other much. Relationships aside, I can imagine being under the emotional stress of constantly thinking you're wrong or your behavior is bad isn't necessarily a good thing.

Even now I get sad thinking about it, and we've been broken up for 2 years now.

[Shroom Man 777]

When the mind is screwed up, anything bad can happen.

[CaptJodan]

Religious indotrinaction already emphasizes that you - as a person - are a filthy sinner, who deserves nothing less than to burn in Hell, unless you do what the religion proscribes you to do. So anyone who was indoctrinated since childbirth into thinking that he would go to hell if he slipped up, already thinks of himself as morally weak, needing guidance and strict rules.

Then it turns out that he is a homosexual - a grave sin, which automatically damns you to hell unless you can somehow "become" heterosexual. Of course, it's impossible to simply "will" yourself to change your sexual orientation - therefore, the man in question becomes desperate. He hates himself, because he is attracted to men, and cannot do anything about it. He hates himself because he sins before his God and is damned for an eternity of torment.

Stop reading my biography.

That's about where it stopped for me. My solution was either accept who I was or commit suicide (a bit more extreme, if I do say so). Mind you that was years ago. Tried for several years to will it, to pray for it, to really want to change.

I was self-hating, but not hateful of other homosexuals. I hated myself because I was what God didn't want me to be, I hated myself because I would never have a proper family and wouldn't be "normal" (the last part being a big part of it.).

I've never been of the opinion one should actually try and destroy the rights of others, or look down on a person because of their sexual preference, even when I hated myself for it. Associating with homosexuals wasn't wrong by what I was brought up with (though my grandparents would disagree). It was their own issue to deal with as they saw fit as far as I was concerned. I just knew what I wanted. I was far more afraid that homosexuals would see through my cover than worried that they wouldn't go to heaven.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

To answer your question, Stravo, there are three primary psychological functions served by homophobes.

1.) To make themselves feel better about themselves by affirming their own beliefs. Hence, the more you bash gays, the more you feel good about your heterosexist beliefs.

2.) To increase self-esteem by winning approval from important others. Or in other words, to be in the "in" social group.

3.) A defensive reaction to something you consider highly threatening, which in this case would be the idea that you are gay. When it comes to a closeted homosexual who is highly self-loathing, bashing gays could be an attempt to repress the idea that you might be gay from your consciousness.

Any one of the three would be probable explanations for homophobic behaviour, but in the case of Ted Haggart or Mark Foley, I think it's a combination of all three. As a former closet case, the possibility that I was gay was very terrifying. While I didn't end up gay bashing, I did start watching straight porn to desperately try to convince myself that I was not. I'd imagine that if you felt that pornography in general was bad, you'd try to find other ways to do the same thing.

[Frank Hipper]

With all the news lately dealing with men who were obviously extremely closeted homosexuals that have been exposed as working dirtectly against the causes near and dear to homosexuality such as Gay Marriage and equal rights in general (i.e. Mark Foley and the minister and his homosexual prostitutes) I have to ask the question. Is homosexual self loathing and denial in some extremely closeted individuals that bad that you would actively hurt other homosexuals?

Yes, and if by "hurt" you mean "solicit sex from, and then murder", yes again.

I forget the details, but a documentary I saw ten or fifteen years ago detailed the murder of a gay man in a small southern town.

Everyone in town knew he was gay, and apparently he led a reasonably happy life free of the overt bigotry you'd expect in that situation due to his being a very sweet and likeable guy.
One night in the town's (only?) bar, he was solicited for sex by two locals, they went to some backwoods road and had sex, and then the two killed him.
When caught, and put on trial, their defense was that he hit them up for sex, and that was something just too insulting for their Christian manhood to suffer without riposte.
One of the pair admitted to what actually happened in the course of the on-camera interview while serving a life sentence.

So, yeah, self-loathing can lead to "hurt".

I ask this because I'm wondering what the thought processes are in an individual like the minister who was a champion of the fight against gay marriage. He knows he's gay. He doesn't want anyone else to know he's gay. So his response is to then...opress all gays??

I believe that sums up the situation in many cases perfectly, yes.

I don't get that at all. if I was a closeted gay man I would just be focussed on keeping my secret and let other homosexuals do as they will, none of my concern.

You're a lawyer, you deal with determining the veracity of people's statements; how often do you meet with a liar so good that they fool you?
People who are lying betray themselves with hand gestures, body language, and other red flags; closeted people often do the same with being the proverbial "lady that doth protest too much".

A homosexual friend of mine when I asked him what the deal was with the Foley and any homosexual in the Republican party in general he replied that I have no idea just how much these guys hate themselves and by extension other gays.

I don't know if they actually hate themselves, but I think they certainly fear discovery to the extent that they'll do anything to avoid being exposed.

Moral and ethical bankruptcy as a survival response to societal bigotry, ain't humanity just wonderful?

[Sriad]

The Laramie Project, concerning the death of Matthew Shepard. The actual event happened about 60 miles North of where I lived at the time, and he died in the hospital of my town. There were vigils for the days he lingered in a coma.

The picketing of his funeral and the trial of his assailants was a major event in the career of Fred Phelps & co, and eventually of counter-protesters. President Clinton attempted to extend hate-crime legislation to gays and lesbians.

[Frank Hipper]

The Laramie Project, concerning the death of Matthew Shepard. The actual event happened about 60 miles North of where I lived at the time, and he died in the hospital of my town. There were vigils for the days he lingered in a coma.

The picketing of his funeral and the trial of his assailants was a major event in the career of Fred Phelps & co, and eventually of counter-protesters. President Clinton attempted to extend hate-crime legislation to gays and lesbians.

I wasn't talking about Matthew Shepard, this was in Georgia or Mississippi...

[mr friendly guy]

My suggestion

Premise 1 - homosexuality is immoral according to the Bible

Premise 2 - I (closet gay) is homosexual

Premise 3 - God is perfect

Conclusion 1 - There it must be my fault that I am homosexual as opposed to God for making me gay in the first place, because you know, God is perfect and all that.

Conclusion 2 - I hate myself since I want to be in God's good graces but I can't if I am a homosexual

Premise 4 - Everyone is imperfect, but if we accept Jesus Christ in our hearts we will be forgiven

Conclusion 3 - I can accept Jesus by doing his works, and what better work than an anti homosexual crusade because I am gay. This way I can be forgiven, so I must work fervently with my crusade.

Now I don't suggest to be able to get into the minds of such self loathing people, but if they truly believed the Bible and they know they are gay, from those premises I am reasonably confident those are the conclusions you draw.

Thoughts?

[brianeyci]

No mrfriendlyguy, to understand bigots the key is knowing that it's not thought out. It's all instinct. They treat what they were told as children as a priori knowledge and are incapable of rationalizing their way out of it. It would not be so verbose but brief and distinctive.

1. Being gay is bad.

2. Therefore I am bad.

3. Therefore, all people who are gay are bad. I am less bad if I hate gays.

That's it, that's all, instinctive knee-jerk shit. Even if a homophobe spent a long time thinking about it, it is not really thought but just confirming their original ideas and reinforcing them with "evidence."

[Surlethe]

Thoughts?

From a purely logical standpoint, I don't see how Conclusion 2 follows from your three premises.

From a more informal standpoint, I don't see why it's necessary to rationalize a gay Christian's disdain for gays in light of his suppressed sexuality; given that (a) Christians think homosexuality's a sin, and (b) it must be a choice to be a sin, I don't see any particular reason a gay Christian in general would derive his hatred for homosexuals from his suppressed sexuality, instead of from his religion, which also would cause him to suppress his sexuality.

I mean, we don't ask if the reason evangelical Christians kneejerk against liberals is because the evangelicals are really suppressed liberals; I don't see why this situation (again, in general) ought to be different.

[FSTargetDrone]

I wonder, why are we assuming the pastor or other "self-hating" homosexuals aren't merely bisexual?

[Frank Hipper]

I wonder, why are we assuming the pastor or other "self-hating" homosexuals aren't merely bisexual?

Would that make a difference?

[FSTargetDrone]

I wonder, why are we assuming the pastor or other "self-hating" homosexuals aren't merely bisexual?

Would that make a difference?

No, but in many of these sorts of discussions, it seems as if the person in question is either "homosexual" or "straight." I see very little mention of discussion of "bisexual" people in the media. It's almost as if it's an either/or thing with no middle ground. It's just one of those little things that nag at me sometimes, especially since I actually know a few bisexual people. They always seem to get short shrift.

[Frank Hipper]

I wonder, why are we assuming the pastor or other "self-hating" homosexuals aren't merely bisexual?

Would that make a difference?

No, but in many of these sorts of discussions, it seems as if the person in question is either "homosexual" or "straight." I see very little mention of discussion of "bisexual" people in the media. It's almost as if it's an either/or thing with no middle ground. It's just one of those little things that nag at me sometimes, especially since I actually know a few bisexual people. They always seem to get short shrift.

Good point; these people that "Come Out As Gay" and end up leaving their wives and families after years...you have no idea how that irks me; they're labeled "gay", only "gay" and nothing but "gay".

Jesus, if dude can impregnate a woman, he's functioning sexually with a woman (well, one assumes so at least), that itself defines him as bisexual.

[CaptJodan]

I wonder, why are we assuming the pastor or other "self-hating" homosexuals aren't merely bisexual?

It's an interesting question. I suspect it's for some variety of reasons.

The media wants to play up the fact that he is what he hates. Bisexuality is likely not as severe a crime as homosexuality to fundies (though close, no denying that) because you can "choose" not to have sex with the same sex. As long as you choose the right way, a bisexual nature might be hidden well.

By painting him as a repressed homosexual rather than a repressed bisexual, the media does two things. For the liberal minded, it further highlights his hypocracy. I'm not sure how much he preached against anti-bisexualness (I can't believe he didn't preach against it at all...he probably clumped it with homosexuality) but I would think homosexuality, being that they just refuse to conform, damn it, is the greater sin and so labeling him homosexual more directly kicks him in the balls.

At the same time, it works for the right wing fundies as well. "This is what gay people do. They buy illicit drugs from gay prostitutes and turn against their family. We must have moral standards! Down with homosexuals!"