Of an early development of black powder

[Zor]

This is something I have been thinking about. As everyone here knows, one of the biggest developments in military history was the advent of gunpowder. As we also know, gunpowder is nothing complicated to make, it is made of three common substances that were in use for other purposes well before gunpowder was used and crude gunpowder can be made with simple hand querns. For at least eight thousand years before the Chinese started grinding Charcoal, Saltpeter and sulfur into the propellant of fireworks, mankind was capable of producing gunpowder.

The basic idea here is relatively simple. What if a sapient species (it could be mankind in an alternate timeline or an alien race, not that it matters much) is at the Neolithic/copper age of technology. They have farming, permanent or semi-permanent settlements and they mine specific minerals such as flint and coal for their various applications. However, they differ from us in the fact that someone, bet it a medicine man, some eccentric or whatever developed black powder a comparatively short time ago and now the use of gunpowder as well as the knowledge of its production is now common enough among the various clans of locals in the local area. How would such a civilization progress technologically with black production from it’s beginnings?

Zor

[The Yosemite Bear]

well without advanced meterology it's not going to do much you need a means to channel your fire of the gods.

[Lord of the Abyss]

well without advanced meterology it's not going to do much you need a means to channel your fire of the gods.

Grenades. Like in the Belisarius books; even a primitive culture could make fuse fired ceramic grenades, and throw them with slings.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yeah, that and rockets your still losing most of your energy. Still nails aren't hard to make even for bronze age folks, so we should see seige catapult charges too.

[Zornhau]

If they've got blackpowder, then they can induldge in some interesting engineering projects quite early, so kickstarting their techbase.

Also, IIRC you don't need metal to build canon or handguns - it's been done with bamboo and leather. (Wouldn't want to stand near either when in sue).

[Thanas]

well without advanced meterology it's not going to do much you need a means to channel your fire of the gods.

Grenades. Like in the Belisarius books; even a primitive culture could make fuse fired ceramic grenades, and throw them with slings.

the Byzantine's were neither primitive nor in the copper age, therefore disqualifying them from the discussion at hand per the OT.

If they've got blackpowder, then they can induldge in some interesting engineering projects quite early, so kickstarting their techbase.

Also, IIRC you don't need metal to build canon or handguns - it's been done with bamboo and leather. (Wouldn't want to stand near either when in sue).

This all assumes that the culture realizes the potential of the innovation. Since they are in the copper age, I highly doubt that (the chinese did not build guns till 1249, and to my knowledge did not use it in engineering projects).

yeah, that and rockets your still losing most of your energy. Still nails aren't hard to make even for bronze age folks, so we should see seige catapult charges too.

You'd still need mathematics. Since the first catapults appeared only around 300-400 BC, this hardly falls into the bronze age.

[Lord of the Abyss]

well without advanced meterology it's not going to do much you need a means to channel your fire of the gods.

Grenades. Like in the Belisarius books; even a primitive culture could make fuse fired ceramic grenades, and throw them with slings.

the Byzantine's were neither primitive nor in the copper age, therefore disqualifying them from the discussion at hand per the OT.

Irrelevant, since a simple fuse and ceramic shell grenade wouldn't even require copper, much less Byzantine technology ( they made them first because they were easy, after all ). I was simply pointing out a fictional account where a culture got gunpowder weapons early; given the technology they used, it's perfectly applicable. Primitive Copper Age cultures do have ceramic and slings.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

Grenades. Like in the Belisarius books; even a primitive culture could make fuse fired ceramic grenades, and throw them with slings.

the Byzantine's were neither primitive nor in the copper age, therefore disqualifying them from the discussion at hand per the OT.

Irrelevant, since a simple fuse and ceramic shell grenade wouldn't even require copper, much less Byzantine technology ( they made them first because they were easy, after all ). I was simply pointing out a fictional account where a culture got gunpowder weapons early; given the technology they used, it's perfectly applicable. Primitive Copper Age cultures do have ceramic and slings.

I'm sorry, but I find that extremely hilarious!

Simply having the knowledge of gunpowder does NOT translate into the knowledge of how to apply it. Having all the prerequisites for making a ceramic fuse does NOT imply that one would even conceive of the possibility. And it's another leap to assume they would think of adding shrapnel to make a fragmentation grenade. As for guns, they would need an understanding of expansion of gases before they would even think to build a rudimentary example. But to make a reliable gun that would have any impact beyond scarry noise requires beyond-bronze-age metallurgy as well as manufacturing processes.

Actually, the only rebuttal needed here is the real-life example of the Chinese as mentioned by Thanas already.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Simply having the knowledge of gunpowder does NOT translate into the knowledge of how to apply it.
Having all the prerequisites for making a ceramic fuse does NOT imply that one would even conceive of the possibility. And it's another leap to assume they would think of adding shrapnel to make a fragmentation grenade.

I never said they would. I was simply pointing out to The Yosemite Bear that it was possible. Just as this thread is all about a discovery that was possible, but didn't happen.

As for guns, they would need an understanding of expansion of gases before they would even think to build a rudimentary example.

Or they might experiment and get lucky. All it would take is for some black powder to get lit in a container or even a hole with one side open, for stuff to be flung out, and for someone to notice the possibilities.

As for guns, they would need an understanding of expansion of gases before they would even think to build a rudimentary example. But to make a reliable gun that would have any impact beyond scarry noise requires beyond-bronze-age metallurgy as well as manufacturing processes.

Single use directional mines would be another matter, and quite dangerous.

Actually, the only rebuttal needed here is the real-life example of the Chinese as mentioned by Thanas already.

The fact that they didn't develop gunpowder weapons means nothing; plenty of things weren't developed until long after they could have been, or were developed and forgotten. The famous Greek proto-steam engine, stirrups, the Archimedes screw, arrows that spins for range and accuracy ( IIRC Otzi the Iceman had them, but we had to re-invent the idea for bullets ), concrete ( with the Romans had, and later ages forgot ), the assembly line ( again invented in Rome, and forgotten ). Besides, the ancient Chinese are notorious for discovering things, and making nothing of them; they are a poor example.

[Magus]

What would the impact be? Not much. Gunsmithing is a very precise, refined technology - inconsistencies in metal strength, thickness, or barrel shape cause disastrous consequences. Until the mechanized standardization of parts, it required an extremely skilled craftsman to custom-build an entire gun from scratch. A copper-using civilization would lack the metallurgical skill to produce either cannon or hand-held firearms of any real accuracy or power. Additionally, copper is such a malleable and ductile material that its usage in post-renaissance era weaponry, even utilizing modern construction technique, is very unlikely. So guns are out.

Given that the earliest grenades required a near direct hit to be of any use, it is unlikely that this alternate civilization could use them for anything but scare tactics.

What about excavation? I suppose that black powder would have allowed a civilization to mine massive amounts of stone very quickly...but what would they do with all that stone? Build pyramids or hanging gardens or something? It might have made such things easier to build, but it was neither difficulty mining stone nor engineering problems that prevented pyramids from getting bigger, simply a desire on the part of ancient pharaohs to "one-up" the king before them. It may enable this alternate civilization to obtain greater amounts of mined materials more easily - I don't presume to know the immediate effects of such an event - perhaps they'd become rich fairly quickly?

[Thanas]

Simply having the knowledge of gunpowder does NOT translate into the knowledge of how to apply it.
Having all the prerequisites for making a ceramic fuse does NOT imply that one would even conceive of the possibility. And it's another leap to assume they would think of adding shrapnel to make a fragmentation grenade.

I never said they would. I was simply pointing out to The Yosemite Bear that it was possible. Just as this thread is all about a discovery that was possible, but didn't happen.

You said they would. Look at your post, it says

even a primitive culture could make fuse fired ceramic grenades, and throw them with slings.

However, your analogy is false...you do not realise how dangerous and complicated it actually is to manufacture grenades such as you have in mind, do you? Here's a hint: the romans developed special troops just for handling greek fire, and for sieges. And they did not use greek fire in combat often, because handling such weapons is complicated as hell. THe Byzantines had special troops just for that weapon. Now you are saying that a primitive culture would be able to have the same efficiency in manufacturing weapons and training troops as a thousand year-old empire?
Let me break down the facts: You'll need siege engines to throw the grenades over a huge distance. Otherwise your troops are getting slaughtered. Slings are fucking useless, unless you want to manufacture grenades as small as pellets. Then you'll need to keep the wind from blowing the fuses out, train slingers to throw them over several hundred yards, build grenades in standardized sizes.....All of this has to be done in the bronze age, where most states consisted of one city with a population in the thousands at most.
You do not realise how fucking useless such manufactured grenades are in ancient warfare, do you? Hint: In facing an army like the roman one, you'll need to cover a distance of 1000 yards until you can even reach them. Over that distance you are going to get slaughtered by arrows, bastillae, onagers etc. Any army with flaming arrows would have a field day. No scratch that. Any army with any kind of archers would be laughing at you. Which is one of the reasons the chinese did not try to develop guns - they were just simply fucking ineffective if arrows and siege-engines could do the job better.

Or they might experiment and get lucky. All it would take is for some black powder to get lit in a container or even a hole with one side open, for stuff to be flung out, and for someone to notice the possibilities.

Congratulations. Now said person has to realize it was not only the act of Hephaistos, but a chemical reaction. Then you need to manufacture the grenades to standard sizes. Which is impossible without decent factories. Then you'll need to train your troops. Then you'll need to develop a system that can outrange siege engines and archers. AND defend your tribe/nation from attacks by others during that period. All of this has to be done in the bronze age, where most states consisted of one city with a population in the thousands at most.

Single use directional mines would be another matter, and quite dangerous.

Those are fucking useless in direct combat (see above). Mines are very, very tricky to make. There's a reason they only saw widespread use after the 19th century. Mines are also only effective if backed up by other weaponry. Why should a tribe/nation invest massive manpower in building a weapon that is good only for defensive purposes, when building one is nigh impossible because of the lack of industry?

The fact that they didn't develop gunpowder weapons means nothing; plenty of things weren't developed until long after they could have been, or were developed and forgotten.

How is this relavant to the discussion at hand?

The famous Greek proto-steam engine,

You mean in Alexandria? The potential was not even realised by its creator. There were no intentions to use it for anything other than stage plays. Actually, this is a perfect example against your reasoning - the guys might just decide to only use gunpowder in religious ceremonies.

stirrups

Those never went out of use after their invention. Please provide proof otherwise.

, the Archimedes screw

Another example of unrealized potential - a point against your resoning.

arrows that spins for range and accuracy IIRC Otzi the Iceman had them, but we had to re-invent the idea for bullets

Never went out of use either. Please provide proof otherwise.

concrete ( with the Romans had, and later ages forgot )

Bullshit. See Byzantine empire.

, the assemby line ( again invented in Rome, and forgotten )

Bullshit. Sea weapon manufacturies of Constantinople.

Besides, the ancient Chinese are notorious for discovering things, and making nothing of them; they are a poor example.

And by your reasoning the average bronze-age tribe was more capable in that than the chinese? Please provide any argument for that.


As I said, you'll need a supporting industry, siege engines capable of throwing the grenades, trained troops, trained engineers, a high degree of standardization...all of this in the copper and bronze age, where mathematics and the laws of physics were so unknown that capable siege engines appeared only in the fifth century bc. Yep, very realistic indeed.

[Thanas]

What about excavation? I suppose that black powder would have allowed a civilization to mine massive amounts of stone very quickly...but what would they do with all that stone? Build pyramids or hanging gardens or something? It might have made such things easier to build, but it was neither difficulty mining stone nor engineering problems that prevented pyramids from getting bigger, simply a desire on the part of ancient pharaohs to "one-up" the king before them. It may enable this alternate civilization to obtain greater amounts of mined materials more easily - I don't presume to know the immediate effects of such an event - perhaps they'd become rich fairly quickly?

First off, I agree with the rest of your post.

But why start mining with blackpowder? It is highly dangerous and highly difficult ot use, when the metallic requirements of a society can be met by simple mining without gunpowder.

[Guardsman Bass]

Aside from possibly some extra magic tricks for your village magician/religious authority, I can't really see them developing anything with it at this point.

Later on would be a different story, though. The development of sea warfare would go differently, if they figure out some way to make primitive explosives, or even some kind of crude cannon or rocket.

[Magus]

But why start mining with black powder? It is highly dangerous and highly difficult to use, when the metallic requirements of a society can be met by simple mining without gunpowder.

Because the use of explosives can increase the speed at which one mines. That is why it was introduced to Britain for civic uses in 1638, and black powder was used widely until it was outclassed by more powerful/more stable explosives. But I'm actually in agreement with you when I fail to see the use for such massive amounts of mining. As I said in my post:

I suppose that black powder would have allowed a civilization to mine massive amounts of stone very quickly...but what would they do with all that stone?

It might be a useful technology to quickly obtain large quantities of gold or silver ore...but until the invention of smelting (an bronze-age technology), there would be no point in getting ore. And, as I said before, there wasn't enough demand for mined materials to make blast mining especially useful.

[defanatic]

What would happen once the empires got established, if the knowledge was maintained?

[Thanas]

Because the use of explosives can increase the speed at which one mines. That is why it was introduced to Britain for civic uses in 1638, and black powder was used widely until it was outclassed by more powerful/more stable explosives.

Perhaps I should have expressed myself better, but I never doubted the advantages of speedy mining through explosives. I should have expressed myself better as my post was apparently not understood by you.
I meant that the dangers in using the black powder do outweigh the possible benefits, since the necessary metals can be obtained through much lesser efforts.

What would happen once the empires got established, if the knowledge was maintained?

Sorry, but I am not sure I understand your question, defanatic. Do you mean if an empire would have obtained that knowledge, and produced guns? To avoid repeating the numerous "What would happen if the Romans invented gunpowder" I would say: Not much. As I said, gunpowder was at that time nearly useless as a weapon, since you were outranged by other weapons who were potentially more damaging than gunpowder.
However, if an empire was to miracuously advance to the metallurgical knowledge and science of the 15th century, cannons would give them a massive advantage. Guns would only get important if the need to raise huge armies would arise.

[The Yosemite Bear]

early fuses were tricky to time. I beleive the phrase "hoisted by ones own petard" comes to mind/

[Covenant]

This is a misconception--the Chinese did indeed do some clever things with gunpowder even if they weren't making guns out of them. If you developed black powder early on you could easily make bombs out of them for use in sapping defensive fortifications, giving them a massive offesive siege-breaking superiority. Sapping technologies + Gunpower = Less Effective Walls, for sure.

Gunpowder is also a fairly interesting incindeary weapon. The Chinese made a lot of really strange devices, like powder flares rigged to cattle or birds that they'd let loose at the enemy in order to create a pyrotechnic device that could set a city ablaze or causs havoc in enemy ranks. They'd also attach them to spears, and you could light the things and create gouts of fire, and these were used in defensive situations at times.

Now, I can't recall offhand and can't find my book that discussed this, but there were lots of non-rocket and non-cannon applications for firey burney powder before metallurgy caught up.

What makes it more interesting is a neolithic application rather than the more advanced bronze-age applications. I think that things like bamboo, if available, would make good grenade canisters and pipe bombs. A leather pouch would do alright as well, especially when you don't need to do anything more complicated than light an incredibly basic candle fuse, throw it over the walls, and light an enemy city on fire.

I really don't think that it'd make some huge change in military tactics. I think people would spend a lot of time and energy TRYING to make it do something, and end up with a lot of really ridiculous contraptions that are supposed to finally harnass the power of gunpowder, but until people develop rockets and guns that are more likely to fly than just explode you're going to see it as the sort of gimmick it was in China. Obviously militarily useful, but not so obvious in how you wrassle it into killing them and not you, and doing so in such a way that just your basic spear and arrow army isn't going to be easier and cheaper.

Kinda like all the wierd microwave death rays in WWII, and the desire for focused sunlight fire weapons in the Ancient Era, gunpowder would probably just be a glimmer of some future use held back by the fact that as an incindeary device it's not too much better than grease, and as an explosive it's just too darn dangerous. I think they'd use it in clever ways, scare a lot of horses and people, but ultimately fail to really make anything more amazing out of it than Greek Fire was in the long run.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The Chinese made a lot of really strange devices, like powder flares rigged to cattle or birds that they'd let loose at the enemy in order to create a pyrotechnic device that could set a city ablaze or causs havoc in enemy ranks.

Now that just reminded me; years back I recall reading about an early "biological weapon" from the early gunpowder era. It consisted of excrement and other filth packaged around a powder charge and catapulted over a wall. I don't know how effective it was, but I wouldn't care to get a wound from that in a pre-antibiotic society.

As far as non-military uses go, I think it would allow a society to begin large scale mining and many other engineering works earlier than otherwise, and on a larger scale. Nothing too drastic since black powder isn't that powerful, but I can't see how having an extra tool available would hurt.

[Thanas]

This is a misconception--the Chinese did indeed do some clever things with gunpowder even if they weren't making guns out of them. If you developed black powder early on you could easily make bombs out of them for use in sapping defensive fortifications, giving them a massive offesive siege-breaking superiority. Sapping technologies + Gunpower = Less Effective Walls, for sure.

None of which existed in the bronze age, especially sapping technologies. The earliest mention of a siege tunnel in Europe was in the siege of Veia,iirc, which is in the fourth century.

Gunpowder is also a fairly interesting incindeary weapon. The Chinese made a lot of really strange devices, like powder flares rigged to cattle or birds that they'd let loose at the enemy in order to create a pyrotechnic device that could set a city ablaze or causs havoc in enemy ranks. They'd also attach them to spears, and you could light the things and create gouts of fire, and these were used in defensive situations at times.

All true. However, all of these things are really only useful in special circumstances, and you'd still need other technologies to exploit them. E.g., you'd need a town without walls, an undisciplined enemy, and chemical knowledge, which did not exist in the bronze age. Its not as easy as wrap them around a spear - if you make a minor mistake such as using too much black powder, you've got a broken spear.

What makes it more interesting is a neolithic application rather than the more advanced bronze-age applications. I think that things like bamboo, if available, would make good grenade canisters and pipe bombs. A leather pouch would do alright as well, especially when you don't need to do anything more complicated than light an incredibly basic candle fuse, throw it over the walls, and light an enemy city on fire.

You'd need a bit more than do that. You'd need to get to the walls in the first place, and then be an exceptional strong thrower.
To get over that predicament, you'd need siege tactics or things like catapults, which did not exist in the bronze ages.

[Thanas]

Now that just reminded me; years back I recall reading about an early "biological weapon" from the early gunpowder era. It consisted of excrement and other filth packaged around a powder charge and catapulted over a wall. I don't know how effective it was, but I wouldn't care to get a wound from that in a pre-antibiotic society.

The key word in that structure is catapult, which, as you should have noticed if you'd have read my post, only existed after the 4th century bc. As far as bioweapons go, you'd probably be better off to throw carcasses over the wall, or into the water supply. Again, you'd need catapults, which did not exist in the bronze age.

Since you did not reply to my other post, I take it you conceeded all your previous arguments?

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit: Replace structure with sentence.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

I never said they would. I was simply pointing out to The Yosemite Bear that it was possible. Just as this thread is all about a discovery that was possible, but didn't happen.

That's even funnier. The original post asked:

How would such a civilization progress technologically with black [powder] production from it’s beginnings?

Considering that this was posted in SLAM, I interpreted this as being a question regarding the likely (probable) impact that black powder would have if it was discovered much earlier in a society's development.

You, on the other hand, interpreted this as a question about what could possibly happen. . .a viewpoint that might be useful if you're planning on writing some fiction like, say, the Belisarius Saga. Which presumeably is why you brought it up.

Please note that possible does not mean probable.

The fact that they [the Chinese] didn't develop gunpowder weapons means nothing; plenty of things weren't developed until long after they could have been, or were developed and forgotten.

By all means, ignore evidence that completely destroys your position. . .whoops, sorry, I forgot. . .you were talking about what might be possible in your fictional world.

. . .arrows that spins for range and accuracy ( IIRC Otzi the Iceman had them, but we had to re-invent the idea for bullets ). . .

Are you seriously this dense? The benefits of spin stabilization were most definitely NOT forgotten.

Think about it (if you can)--how do we impart spin on a bullet? Answer--by rifling the bore of the barrrel.

Off the top of my head, I see two major technological hurdles that had to be overcome before rifled bores became practicle. First, actually cutting the rifling was no mean feat. It requires high degree of precision in manufacturing before it could even be attempted, and it requires special tools (this should be obvious, but somehow I feel the need to point out the obvious). Second is the breach-loading mechanism. Without breach-loaders, you would have to ram a bullet down a rifled barrel--a bullet that has sufficient diametral interference with the barrel bore so that it can take advantage of that rifling when fired.

Additionally, rifled bores presented other problems such as the need for consistent bullet sizes (muskets tolerated far more variation in bullet size and could be purchased with a very crude do-it-yourself casting mould) and decreased barrel life due to wear (even today, smooth-bore canons are still produced because they last longer than rifled canons).

I could go on, but your assertion that spin stabilization was forgotten and then reinvented is already shown to be pathetic. And so are the rest.

[The Yosemite Bear]

note getting a fuse to burn slowly enough was another major under taking as well. so even if your dumping powder into a pot and launching them with slings, you still are going to be killing a lot of your own people, bevause controlling burn and hermetically sealing so that no stray sparks get into the powder nor any water gets to it. Is kinda ard as I pointed out before. needless to say the reason we went to electrical detonation is as harold loyd's missig hyan would clearly demonstrate, fuses are a tad unstable.

[KrauserKrauser]

To have any major impact in the Neolithic or Bronze Era society, Black Powder would be of the most benefit when applied to agricultural purposes.

Blasting large irrigation channels or opening up waterways for travel and trade would be useful and possibly accomplished faster with the application of Blackpowder.

As far as farming or food gathering goes, it would be useful in blasting stumps from the ground and the clearing of obstructions in fields, but they had slaves and animals to do the same. Blackpowder might not make any gains on that. It would be rubbish for hunting but I could see a fairly crude flashbang being useful in dangerous situations to scare away predators.

They could float the powder out onto lakes and do massive fish kills with it. That would be wasteful and non sustainable but it would more than likely be effective while the fish population lasted.

If applied correctly the Blackpowder could be used as mentioned early in the massive scale engineering projects of the day. Hell with enough manpower and enough blackpowder the pyramids that were built might have been greater in both and size and number with the increase in mining production possible with blackpowder added into the mix.

As far as a weapon it seems pretty much rubbish but applied correctly it could be a useful tool that would slightly accelerate the growth rate and power of the people that developed it.