Doomsday Machine (ST) vs. Star Destroyer (SW)

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Norl wrote:The novel had this as a solution. I presume the author had done his homework. Observed problem: neutronium containment, and he presents a possible solution.
A very stupid assumption.
The neutronium hull was presented as fait acompli. Modern science suggests it is idiotic. Modern science also suggests pumping the equivalent of many hundreds of millions of tons of matter, converted to pure energy, is also idiotic, since there is no known way in physics to contain or channel such energies. "Force fields", and so on, are just so much magic, as is the containment of the neutronium.

Both are presented as fact. Why accept one and not the other?
Because the evidence for one is direct observation. The evidence for the other is the word of a moron.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Honestly, this "it's in a novel, so the novel writer must have scientific qualifications, so it must have some validity" is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in quite a long time. It's sufficiently dumb that I think it's most easily mocked by simply letting people see it.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
OmegaGuy
Retarded Spambot
Posts: 1076
Joined: 2005-12-02 09:23pm

Post by OmegaGuy »

I've always subscribed to the theory that ST neutronium is not real neutronium at all.
Image
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Arguing whether or not Spock was a moron seems pointless when you can go up to the mouth of the Doomsday machine and fire phasers.

Assuming the bog standard 30 kT Federation phasers, and maybe half a megaton photon torpedoes, a fleet of Federation ships could just plant themselves in front of the maw and open fire. For you Norl since you happen to have not seen the episode,
Am I correct in assuming
that a fusion explosion of 97 megatons will result
if a starship impulse engine is overloaded?
No, sir.
97.835 megatons.
97.835.
Anyway does anybody find it strange that Spock mentions Hydrogen Bomb in the same episode and they manage to destroy the Doomsday Machine with just 97 megatons. Presumably the authors knew about the Tsar bomb, you think they would've uped it one or two orders of magnitude.

If I were to bring up the novel I wouldn't bring up the "author did his research" but say that as long as the omniscient narrator said it we suspend disbelief and accept it just like other things. I think Norl mangled the delivery of his point. Nevertheless Norl, the maw is an achilles heel and the fact that you ask people to run numbers when you don't remember what happened in the episode is really arrogant.
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

brianeyci wrote:Assuming the bog standard 30 kT Federation phasers, and maybe half a megaton photon torpedoes, a fleet of Federation ships could just plant themselves in front of the maw and open fire.
Well, there is the problem of the machine firing back...
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Darth Servo wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Assuming the bog standard 30 kT Federation phasers, and maybe half a megaton photon torpedoes, a fleet of Federation ships could just plant themselves in front of the maw and open fire.
Well, there is the problem of the machine firing back...
The weapon has terrible refire. How else do you explain it not shooting at Kirk approaching and trying to suck him in? Low on fuel?

Decker was stupid (the whole point of that Decker ignoring Spock's suggestion to speak). Decker fired phasers at the thing from really far away (like he said) except at the maw. Then after all power went to the weapons he didn't have enough for shields and his ship was wrecked with a single shot like it almost wrecked Enterprise.

Interesting tidbit,
Sensors show the object's hull is solid neutronium.
A single ship cannot combat it.
Spock mentions that a single ship can't defeat it. Spock is usually precise, so when he says a single ship can't beat it maybe he means more ships can. Or else he might have said "we cannot defeat it." And VOY's Think Tank has a neutronium hull and somehow a swarm of ships firing at it posed a threat. So in Star Trek it looks like neutronium is not real life neutronium.
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Post by Surlethe »

Norl wrote:
Back up there, buddy. Your assumption that the hull is pure neutronium leads to the conclusion that the Doomsday machine has a mass one third again greater than the Earth's. Doesn't that strike you as rather absurd?
Yes, if that's where the numbers lead. Solid neutrons are tremendously dense.
That's where the numbers lead when you incorporate the assumption that the hull is pure neutronium. As Darth Wong has pointed out, that assumption doesn't match what we'd expect if it were pure neutronium. Let's extend the predictions of your model a little further. Do we observe that the Doomsday machine has Earthlike gravity? Has it affected everything in the systems that it ate? Did things crash into it or were obiviously affected near it, as you'd expect with a surface gravitational acceleration of 150 m/s/s ? It should have slingshotted anything near it around it or pulled them into its surface.
And I wouldn't open the "absurdity" can of worms when talking about ST vs. SW. Isn't the idea of the Death Star pumping hundreds of millions, if not billions of tons of mass-converted-to-energy into a planet to induce it to explode at small relativistic speeds absurd?
Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the argument technique reductio ad absurdum.
How do you judge absurd, Surlethe?
Self-contradictory, or contradictory to canon.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

OmegaGuy wrote:I've always subscribed to the theory that ST neutronium is not real neutronium at all.
Or, it could be the case that the processors running the sensors on both the Enterprise and the Constellation defaulted to a computer indentification of neutronium as the material composing the planet killer's outer shell.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

brianeyci wrote:The weapon has terrible refire. How else do you explain it not shooting at Kirk approaching and trying to suck him in? Low on fuel?
Not perceived as a threat. The thing demonstrated much higher refire rates earlier. Besides, its not like Federation fleets really know about coordinating fire. Hell, Picard needed to explicitly order them to fire on one point on the cube in First Contact. Before that the Fed ships appeared to be shooting random spots on the cube. We saw a similar story in the DS9 pilot with Sisko's flashback to Wolf 359. Never mind that all the ships on both sides of the Dominion war seemed to use the shotgun approach to firing at enemy ships (aka the "blast away and pray" tactic)
Spock mentions that a single ship can't defeat it. Spock is usually precise,
Bullshit
so when he says a single ship can't beat it maybe he means more ships can.
Gotta love that leap in logic. One ship can't so that means a bunch can. :roll:
And VOY's Think Tank has a neutronium hull and somehow a swarm of ships firing at it posed a threat.
Details please. I presume Voyager was the only Fed ship in the area so that swarm probably wasn't Federation ships. As such this whole point is irrelevant.
So in Star Trek it looks like neutronium is not real life neutronium.
No shit Sherlock.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

The ships were weaker than Voyager, which is why they hunted Voyager in packs. I see no reason why I should summarize the episode for you no more than you should summarize the OT for me. The Think Tank is made of neutronium and a swarm of ships were shooting at it and damaging it (IIRC violent shaking). What kind of details do you want. If you must know they were able to transport through it as well.

As for the perceived as a threat, fuck you. You can't assume the intent of the Doomsday machine. All we know is it shot in one battle and in a later battle it didn't shoot. At most it can take out one Federation ship at a time, and takes a long time to recharge.

And your strawman of my "Spock is usually precise" to "Spock is always right" that Mr. Poe is saying is again bullshit.

I don't get your point. Are you saying that the TOS Starfleet could not handle the Doomsday machine? 97 megatons? Come on. Even the TNG Starfleet could handle that if you are honest, because all we see is one ship shoot at the Doomsday Machine and if we use lower limits two could defeat it.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Patrick Degan wrote:
OmegaGuy wrote:I've always subscribed to the theory that ST neutronium is not real neutronium at all.
Or, it could be the case that the processors running the sensors on both the Enterprise and the Constellation defaulted to a computer indentification of neutronium as the material composing the planet killer's outer shell.
I always thought it was interesting that Spock said their sensors could not penetrate the outer hull surface, and then stated that it was "solid neutronium". How the fuck could he possibly tell what the cross-sectional material composition of the hull was, if his sensors couldn't penetrate its outer surface? That's like saying "I can't see through that window. But I can tell from looking at it that there is gold inside."
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
The Silence and I
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1658
Joined: 2002-11-09 09:04pm
Location: Bleh!

Post by The Silence and I »

Best I can offer is the sensors could only see so far into the hull, and as far as that was all they saw was whatever startrek calls neutronium. Spock then guesses the rest of the hull is similar, but does not advertise his guess as a guess.

So I guess. :)
"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"
User avatar
Master_Baerne
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1984
Joined: 2006-11-09 08:54am
Location: Wouldn't you like to know?

Post by Master_Baerne »

Since it's sole weapon is fired out of the mouth, it has to present it's promary weak spot when fireing. Star Destroyers, which are designed to slug it out with large-scale warships, would be amused and elated to discover that, and launch swarms of missles (or TIE bombers) at the ship, destroying it in seconds.
Conversion Table:

2000 Mockingbirds = 2 Kilomockingbirds
Basic Unit of Laryngitis = 1 Hoarsepower
453.6 Graham Crackers = 1 Pound Cake
1 Kilogram of Falling Figs - 1 Fig Newton
Time Between Slipping on a Banana Peel and Smacking the Pavement = 1 Bananosecond
Half of a Large Intestine = 1 Semicolon
Norl
Redshirt
Posts: 6
Joined: 2006-11-03 10:16am

Post by Norl »

Darth Wong wrote:
Norl wrote:Both are presented as fact. Why accept one and not the other?
Wrong. Only one of them is presented as fact. The other is presented as the opinion of an onscreen character.

And to deny the fluid nature of neutronium is utterly idiotic; you clearly do not understand that solidity is actually a special state of matter in the universe, and requires particular conditions to exist. We've done plenty of experiments on atomic nuclei to confirm that they do, in fact, conform to a fluid model.
It isn't an issue of solidity that makes it desirable. It's an issue of incredibly high density. The doomsday machine's makers had solved the issue of containing it in a form. Trying to redefine it as not what it is doesn't help things much. As I've said, there's no known way to physically contain, channel, or focus the kinds of energies the Death Star pumps out, but that doesn't stop it from being portrayed on screen.

And if you claim it is not such a thing, then you have no way to accurately gauge the upper limit on its toughness given the Trek phasers couldn't scratch it. You could presume some minimal lower limit on it as to how tough something must minimally be to resist a scratch, but that doesn't mean that is anywhere near it's actual limit, especially given it's nature as solid neutrons.
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Well that's all fine and good, but as I mentioned already the Think Tank in Voyager was hurt by swarms of pissant primitives and it apparently had a neutronium hull.

Yes retconning sucks, but I bet if I look I can find another half dozen mentions of neutronium and it wouldn't support the idea of a hyperdense hull.

And it's "its" when making a possessive. It's is it is. Sorry not trying to be a grammar nazi, but that mistake really gets on my nerves. Both you and Master_Baerne.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Norl wrote:It isn't an issue of solidity that makes it desirable. It's an issue of incredibly high density. The doomsday machine's makers had solved the issue of containing it in a form.
Stating your conclusion as a premise is what we call "circular logic", fool.
Trying to redefine it as not what it is doesn't help things much.
Stating supposition as fact doesn't help things much. Spock is NOT infallible, and your argument is predicated upon the assumption that he is, hence anything he says must be "fact'.
As I've said, there's no known way to physically contain, channel, or focus the kinds of energies the Death Star pumps out, but that doesn't stop it from being portrayed on screen.
It's not just a matter of there being no known way to accomplish it; it does not ACT like neutronium. It would be like saying that the Death Star destroyed the planet even though the planet doesn't appear to have been destroyed; you can't just ignore a huge discrepancy between description and observation.

Where is the intense gravitational field? Why is there debris floating around from the planets it's destroyed, when that debris should be stuck to its hull like iron on a magnet? Why does Spock call it "solid neutronium" when your made-up rationalization is actually liquid neutronium contained in an incredibly strong forcefield? Would you call something "ice" if it's actually water in a forcefield? Why no mention of the forcefield from Good ol' Infallible Spock? Why even bother with the neutronium hull if you have forcefields that strong which could effortlessly shrug off phaser fire on their own? Why would a 98 megaton blast destroy the vessel from the inside, when it must be held together both inside and outside with the same forcefield?

You obviously haven't thought this through at all. Your idea of an argument is to moronically keep repeating the same assumptions over and over and ask why people don't simply accept them.
And if you claim it is not such a thing, then you have no way to accurately gauge the upper limit on its toughness given the Trek phasers couldn't scratch it.
By that logic, an AT-AT's armour has no upper limit because snowspeeder blasters couldn't scratch it.
You could presume some minimal lower limit on it as to how tough something must minimally be to resist a scratch, but that doesn't mean that is anywhere near it's actual limit, especially given it's nature as solid neutrons.
There you go again, stating your conclusion as a premise. You honestly don't know why circular reasoning is bad, do you?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post by Stark »

If the Doomsday Machine was extremely high-mass and it attracted debris from chopped up planets (like Unicron, only lamer), would the debris be crushed by gravity, or just sort of crash on the surface? What happens when you throw regular matter at such a large volume of real neutronium?
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Norl, since you obviously missed the link I posted before, here it is again:

The infallible Mr Spock






Thanks to Wayne Poe for this wonderful little gem to shove up Trektard's asses. :twisted:
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Stark wrote:If the Doomsday Machine was extremely high-mass and it attracted debris from chopped up planets (like Unicron, only lamer), would the debris be crushed by gravity, or just sort of crash on the surface? What happens when you throw regular matter at such a large volume of real neutronium?
IIRC, it should become degenerate matter from the intense gravity as thats what caused the star's mass to become degenerate matter in the first place and that gravity doesn't just go away.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Darth Servo wrote:
Stark wrote:If the Doomsday Machine was extremely high-mass and it attracted debris from chopped up planets (like Unicron, only lamer), would the debris be crushed by gravity, or just sort of crash on the surface? What happens when you throw regular matter at such a large volume of real neutronium?
IIRC, it should become degenerate matter from the intense gravity as thats what caused the star's mass to become degenerate matter in the first place and that gravity doesn't just go away.
Actually it does, in the sense that the star would have had millions of times the mass of an Earth-like planet, and the planet-killer would have a mass on the same order of magnitude as the planet. So its gravity would be much smaller than that of a neutron star, although gravitational acceleration at the surface would be much, much greater than that of a normal planet because it is basically Earth squashed into an object millions of times smaller.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

brianeyci wrote:Well that's all fine and good, but as I mentioned already the Think Tank in Voyager was hurt by swarms of pissant primitives and it apparently had a neutronium hull.
This would mean something if there was actual evidence of the Think Tank's destruction. Primative delta quadrant types can swarm a star destroyer if the crew have just been tower-of-babeled and its computer's just been destroyed. But just as with the Think Tank, there's no evidence that doing so will achieve jack shit or even dent the armour. 'Violent shaking' also means jack, because there's no way to tell if that actually is weapons fire, or the effects of the virus, or someone miscontrolling the system, or the effects of physical impactors of some kind. The last shot of the Think Tank shows it fully intact and undamaged. By this standard, three K'ting'as were more than a match for Vejur - they shot at it, after all. Sure, it summarily destroyed them for their impudence, but hey, so long as you're 'swarming' the enemy, it counts as a win.
brianeyci wrote:Anyway does anybody find it strange that Spock mentions Hydrogen Bomb in the same episode and they manage to destroy the Doomsday Machine with just 97 megatons. Presumably the authors knew about the Tsar bomb, you think they would've uped it one or two orders of magnitude.
Why? Authors generally aren't out to wank things. I've said this before, but this is the effect of thinking about gigatons without a solid understanding of smaller weapons - you loose perspective and begin to think that a megaton is a 'small' unit of energy. It really isn't. 97.8 Mt is a pretty devastating bomb.

Anyone actually seen this Collapseum novel, because I'm doubting it's even a Trek novel. I was thinking he meant a novellisation about the episode and was going to say something in defence of ADF's reputation (anyone contracted to write novellisations who alters stories to put in bits about conservation of energy, as in the Alien novel, is okay by me, Star Wars was pretty good on the science too, IIRC), but he's actually referencing a novel that geneates no google hits.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Thanks for missing the point. The violent shaking suggests more likely than not that the neutronium hull is not densely packed neutrons. And at the end Costanza was pissed. Anybody who watched that episode could tell the primitives were a threat to the TT, unlike Enterprise to the Doomsday machine.
NecronLord wrote:Violent shaking' also means jack, because there's no way to tell if that actually is weapons fire, or the effects of the virus, or someone miscontrolling the system, or the effects of physical impactors of some kind.
Bullshit, their weapons looked like phasers, and parsimony says the weapons fire did it, not anything else.

As for the one hundred megatons, I was about to disagree, then I remembered that it was an impulse engine explosion so 100 megatons is a lot. So you're right about that. But for weapons in science fiction in general, in space 100 megatons is not a lot, because if you're going to have something as exotic as a photon torpedo or phasers, it's got to be more effective than bog standard thermonuclear weapons, or why the switch.
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Darth Wong wrote:Actually it does, in the sense that the star would have had millions of times the mass of an Earth-like planet, and the planet-killer would have a mass on the same order of magnitude as the planet. So its gravity would be much smaller than that of a neutron star, although gravitational acceleration at the surface would be much, much greater than that of a normal planet because it is basically Earth squashed into an object millions of times smaller.
I'm not sure I follow you. Where was it said the DM started off with just the mass of and Earth-sized planet? Stark was asking about debris attracted to the thing by its gravity. And shouldn't that add to its mass?
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

brianeyci wrote:Thanks for missing the point. The violent shaking suggests more likely than not that the neutronium hull is not densely packed neutrons. And at the end Costanza was pissed. Anybody who watched that episode could tell the primitives were a threat to the TT, unlike Enterprise to the Doomsday machine.
Because of course, the TT must have absolutely every part of its hull covered in thick plating, just like real tanks have no weak points and are solid boxes of armour pla- oh wait... Just like the Doomsday machine did, and the Iconian Ziggurat... Oh wait, neither of those were entirely covered, and the Think Tank wasn't either. And oh look, here's a shot of the primatives actually firing on it, going for where its armour is thinnest and changes colour.

Image

To use an analogy, if Richard the Third fell down paralysed by a freak stroke and I jabbed him through the visor with a butterknife and killed him, you'd claim my knife would be able to penetrate his plate armour. And even then there's no evidence that they actually destroyed it or harmed its armour which is composed of the same stuff - regardless of whether or not you think it's the same as real neutronium - that could easily withstand the entire weapons loadout of the Defiant.

And no, camera shake in Star Trek rarely if ever actually matches the visuals of attacks. It could just as much be due to the limitations of artificial gravity and SIFs as it is due to momentum imparted (by beam weapons no less) You'll note that the camera shake on Starfleet vessels is pretty much the same, regardless of what hits them, and a Romulan Warbird pummelling the D from upper-aft generates the same kind and degree of camera shake as a teensy B'rel doing so from fore.
As for the one hundred megatons, I was about to disagree, then I remembered that it was an impulse engine explosion so 100 megatons is a lot. So you're right about that. But for weapons in science fiction in general, in space 100 megatons is not a lot,
Why? A 100 Mt blast inside (as I recall, it was piloted into the maw) a goa'uld ha'tak, starfleet vessel, colonial battlestar (either type), and the vast majority of other starships in science fiction would result in total destuction.
because if you're going to have something as exotic as a photon torpedo or phasers, it's got to be more effective than bog standard thermonuclear weapons, or why the switch.
Oh I don't know. Cost, fallout concerns, speed (Especially with fucking beam weapons, moron), reliability, political concerns (nukes are bad, mmkay, but MOABs are good), danger to manufacturers, ease of access for modification, tolerance of high accellerations? Gods, there's oodles of reasons. I've barely scratched the surface.

Your argument works just as well for 'why aren't all torpedos used by the US and USSR nuclear tipped?' which is to say, not at all.

EDIT: Balance of Terror makes it quite clear that in-universe, portable nuclear weapons capable of threatening capital ships - capable of crippling one from a proximity blast, no less - exist.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

NecronLord I am going to hunt for pictures of that attack, and if I find out that you took one frame of them shooting at the so-called weak points and not at the thick armor, then you'll hear it from me. Especially since those shots look like the TT shooting at the ships and not the ships shooting at the TT. But for now I'll concede since I don't have time to look for the screencaps.

As for the 100 megatons, I already said you were right because of an internal explosion, and you split the sentence in the wrong place (what is it with certain people splitting sentences in half.) You miss the point with the photon torpedoes and phasers, which is to say a nuclear warhead is far more simple to manufacture than some exotic beam weapon or an antimatter warhead and there has to be some reason to use it. I expect this to be greater yield, and the Star Trek rationale of heavily optimized weapons doesn't wash.
Post Reply