At last, Minotaurs!

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-11-06 01:25pm

UK scientists have applied for permission to create embryos by fusing human DNA with cow eggs.

Researchers from Newcastle University and Kings College, London, have asked the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority for a three-year licence.

The hybrid human-bovine embryos would be used for stem cell research and would not be allowed to develop for more than a few days.

But critics say it is unethical and potentially dangerous.

Stem cell research is one of the most promising areas of medical science.

They are the body's master cells and five-day-old embryos are packed with them - each with the potential to turn into any tissue in the body.

It is this ability which scientists want to harness to treat diseases such as Parkinson's Disease, strokes and Alzheimer's Disease.

To do that, they need to have access to thousands of embryos for research.

Short supply

The problem is that human eggs for research are in short supply and to obtain them women have to undergo surgery.

That is why scientists want to use cows' eggs as a substitute.

They would insert human DNA into a cow's egg which has had its genetic material removed and then create an embryo by the same technique that produced Dolly the Sheep.

The resulting embryo would be 99.9% human, the only bovine element would be DNA outside the nucleus of the cell.

It would though, technically be a chimera, part-human, part-animal.

The aim would be to extract stem cells from the embryo when it is six days old, before destroying it.

The quality and the viability of stem cells would then be checked to see if technique has worked.

The scientists also plan to examine the way the cells are reprogrammed after fusion to see if there are useful processes they could replicate in the laboratory.

Lead researcher Dr Lyle Armstrong said: "If we can learn from the egg cell how to make embryonic stem cells without having to use an animal egg at all then some day we may be able to cure diseases such as Parkinson's disease, or better still some of the age-related diseases which are creating such a burden on society."

Dr Stephen Minger, from King's College London, said: "The current state of the technology is such that literally hundreds of human ooctyes (eggs) from young women will be required to generate a single human embryonic stem cell line.

"Therefore we consider it more appropriate to use non-human oocytes from livestock as a surrogate.

"We feel that the development of disease-specific human embryonic stem cell lines from individuals suffering from genetic forms of neurodegenerative disorders will stimulate both basic research and the development of new medicines to treat these horrific brain diseases."

Undermining humanity

Professor Robin Lovell-Badge, head of Developmental Genetics, National Institute for Medical Research, said: "This is a very rational step: to learn what you can using animal eggs, which are readily obtainable, before moving on to valuable human eggs when or if this becomes necessary."

But some will argue the end does not justify the means.

Calum MacKellar, from the Scottish Council on Human Bioethics, said the research undermines the distinction between animals and humans and breaches human rights.

He said: "In the history of humankind animals and human species have been separated.

"In this kind of procedure you are mixing at a very intimate level animal eggs and human chromosomes, and you may begin to undermine the whole distinction between humans animals and humans.

"If that happens it might also undermine human dignity and human rights."

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2006-11-06 01:51pm

This is a smashing moo-ve, I say. Anything to give the "OMG, stem cells = baby killing!" crowd a real cow and cut through all the bullshit is music to my ears.

The potential for horrible, horrible puns aside; it would be interesting to see how this works out, and how well stem-cells produced by this technique would work, compared to 100% human stem-cells.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-11-06 02:44pm

Damn, I wish someone would actually create some new hybrid mammal species just to see what happens.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace · Post by **ThatGuyFromThatPlace** » 2006-11-06 03:03pm

as pro-stem cell research et. al. as I am, this is giving my a little twinge I'm not entirely sure I like. I have to think about it more to come to a concrete decision/reasoning, but Right now I'm thinking: only 99.99% human=less than Human, which is giving my shivers.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-11-06 03:41pm

BUSH WAS RIGHT.

(let that statement sink in)

Got it yet?

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2006-11-06 03:47pm

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:as pro-stem cell research et. al. as I am, this is giving my a little twinge I'm not entirely sure I like. I have to think about it more to come to a concrete decision/reasoning, but Right now I'm thinking: only 99.99% human=less than Human, which is giving my shivers.

These chimeras being created would be destroyed at the blastocyst stage. All we want from them are their embryonic stem-cells. Rationally speaking, there's no real reason to object to this sort of research, since allowing these embryos to be carried to term . . . if it's even possible, would not be permitted.

If you were to somehow be able to grow viable cloned organs via this technique, there wouldn't be any real ethical dilemma here either, as we use 100% non-human organs and tissues (prime examples being pig and cow heart valves) in certain types of transplants already.

Tolya · Post by **Tolya** » 2006-11-06 04:11pm

Isnt this old news? I've thought that such people exist and lead normal lives.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-11-06 04:23pm

Rye wrote:Damn, I wish someone would actually create some new hybrid mammal species just to see what happens.

It would almost inevitably fail to develop. "Just to see what happens" is a bit of a thin rationalisation for fertilizing an embryo. Practical experiments in this field should be undertaken when there is a clear goal in mind for them.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2006-11-06 04:43pm

Vendetta wrote:
Rye wrote:Damn, I wish someone would actually create some new hybrid mammal species just to see what happens.
It would almost inevitably fail to develop.

What makes you think that ? Chimeras made from combined cells from two species have survived to birth/hatching, such as the "geep" made from goat+sheep embryonic cells, and chicken chicks with their upper heads replaced with quail cells. For that matter, there's good old fashioned mules and ligers and so on; hybrids often develop just fine, and sometimes are as healthy or more so than normal animals.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2006-11-06 05:35pm

Beeb

"If that happens it might also undermine human dignity and human rights."

This bit needs to be looked into as that Damned Human Rights Act has a history of baring its ugly head in this country and fucking things up.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-11-06 05:36pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote: What makes you think that ? Chimeras made from combined cells from two species have survived to birth/hatching, such as the "geep" made from goat+sheep embryonic cells, and chicken chicks with their upper heads replaced with quail cells. For that matter, there's good old fashioned mules and ligers and so on; hybrids often develop just fine, and sometimes are as healthy or more so than normal animals.

They're all closely related, though. Try that with a human and mouse cells, and you get a mix that never gets past embryo stage, if that. Mixing DNA from very different species produces a microscopic mess, which is why we only see things like ligers and mules which are still unable to procreate because of such genetic anomalies.

All they're doing here is using bovine eggs as carriers, since they're mammalian and thus not that unlike our own (else it wouldn't work). They're certainly not making a cowman or huvine or what have you. The technical moniker of chimæra is very loose in this case (hell, we get human only forms of this effect in the same way we get identical twins).

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-11-06 05:45pm

I don't quite understand...exactly what is unethical about this?

salm · Post by **salm** » 2006-11-06 05:50pm

Molyneux wrote:I don't quite understand...exactly what is unethical about this?

Because it starts with "stem ce" and ends with "ll research".

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-11-06 05:57pm

It's also dangerous because minotaurs are vicious things with mazes to really screw with your brain, unless you're divinely favoured.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2006-11-06 06:00pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's also dangerous because minotaurs are vicious things with mazes to really screw with your brain, unless you're divinely favoured.

Nah, all you need are five teenagers dressed in coloured spandex, and they take it apart for you.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-11-06 07:48pm

Tolya wrote:http://www.illinoisfamily.org/content/i ... Mancow.jpg

Isnt this old news? I've thought that such people exist and lead normal lives.

Who is this?

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-11-06 08:03pm

It's a radio "personality" who goes by the name "Mancow"

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-11-06 08:28pm

Rye wrote:Damn, I wish someone would actually create some new hybrid mammal species just to see what happens.

They've been doing that for millenia. They're called "mules" and they're almost always incapable of having offspring.

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2006-11-06 09:58pm

Well this is intersting to say the least, but personally i would like to see someone make a human/animal splice and let them grow to maturity in the name of science.

Zor

ThatGuyFromThatPlace · Post by **ThatGuyFromThatPlace** » 2006-11-06 11:25pm

Zor wrote:Well this is intersting to say the least, but personally i would like to see someone make a human/animal splice and let them grow to maturity in the name of science.

Zor

thats the part thats giving me shivers. Sure it'd be good for science, but back in the day it didn't even take .001% genetic difference to make you a slave. and even now things are only marginally better.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2006-11-07 01:00am

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:
Zor wrote:Well this is intersting to say the least, but personally i would like to see someone make a human/animal splice and let them grow to maturity in the name of science.

Zor
thats the part thats giving me shivers. Sure it'd be good for science, but back in the day it didn't even take .001% genetic difference to make you a slave. and even now things are only marginally better.

If someone is willing to enslave others, they can and will make up an excuse, or not bother with one. That's an irrelevant worry I believe.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2006-11-07 04:59am

I just love it that the university i went to kicks so much ass!

"In this kind of procedure you are mixing at a very intimate level animal eggs and human chromosomes, and you may begin to undermine the whole distinction between humans animals and humans.

Isn't the only distinction between us and every other animal in the world that we're more intelligent?

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2006-11-07 05:08am

2000AD wrote:Isn't the only distinction between us and every other animal in the world that we're more intelligent?

Depends on the animal, and what you mean by difference. In most ways we are chimps with greater intelligence, but even there we differ, such as our year round sex drive. On the other hand we don't think at all like intelligent bees, or even intelligent lizards. We are more emotionally complex than any reptile or fish, much less insects.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2006-11-07 11:56am

I want my thousands of cow-man slaves. Then when they rise up to kill us, our legions of genetically enhanced super-soldiers can make them into ground beef. Man, the future could be awesome if people weren't such pussies. ;-D

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-11-07 08:46pm

LordShaithis wrote:I want my thousands of cow-man slaves.

Tough. All you're getting is the 'elephant/pig' hybrid and the monkey with four asses.

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At last, Minotaurs!

At last, Minotaurs!

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