Did einstein even say this?

[Panzer Grenadier]

As you read this, let its meaning sink in. This eloquently answers one of the profound questions of life. Did God Create Evil?

The university professor challenged his students with this question: "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" the professor asked.

"Yes sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

The professor replied "Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light, we can study, but not darkness. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name. Albert Einstein.

This was posted on one of my friend's facebook notes... Still doesnt address the fact that God does absolutely jack shit about evil meaning he is either not omnipotent or doesnt care. Which contradict the christian definition of god. Plus, I have a suspicion that this incident never happened

[DPDarkPrimus]

No, of course it never happened. It's an idiotic parable made up to demean science, and people like to tack on "It was [famous scientist]" at the end to make it even more 'powerful'.

[Darth Wong]

This is one of the oldest dumbshit arguments out there.

As you read this, let its meaning sink in. This eloquently answers one of the profound questions of life. Did God Create Evil?

The university professor challenged his students with this question: "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" the professor asked.

"Yes sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

That's the first logical error here. Proving that God is evil (a trivially easy task if you simply quote the Bible) does not prove that he doesn't exist. This argument follows the Chick tract methodology of trying to make the critic seem like an idiot by making really bad arguments.

The argument is poorly constructed because "evil" does not exist independently of humans, so God did not create "evil" as an independent entity. He did, however, supposedly create humans, and he also supposedly designed them with the capacity for evil. Or more precisely, he made a small proportion of the population sociopathic, so that even from an extremely young age, they would demonstrate sociopathic tendencies that could someday become what we consider "evil".

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

The professor replied "Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

This is the second error. Cold is a property of matter. It does not exist as an independent entity. And when a person feels cold, he is actually feeling heat transfer out of his body.

The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.

This is the part where he states the obvious, after having set up the fictional professor by making him say stupid things.

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong, sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light, we can study, but not darkness. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

See above.

Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

No, evil is the absence of morality. This entire argument is structured around the completely groundless assumption that morality = God.

The professor sat down.

The young man's name. Albert Einstein.

This last part was recently added and is a rather shameless lie. In fact, the real Albert Einstein said once that Mankind would be in a rather poor way if he had to be motivated by the divine in order to have morality.

[Crown]

This last part was recently added and is a rather shameless lie. In fact, the real Albert Einstein said once that Mankind would be in a rather poor way if he had to be motivated by the divine in order to have morality.

Plus according to X-Men 3, Einstein once said that morality was an entirely human construct without any supernatural considerations, and that's solid proof right there!

[Haruko]

I came across that argument at a theist forum once. Was a great way for the members there to reassure themselves that atheists are all dumb asses.

In fact, the real Albert Einstein said once that Mankind would be in a rather poor way if he had to be motivated by the divine in order to have morality.

For those interested, here's that quote (with source, OMG!) containing what Mr. Wong says Mr. Einstein uttered:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

-- Albert Einstein; "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine (9 November 1930); also used in the obituary in New York Times (19 April 1955)

[K. A. Pital]

Well, so much for the fable.

There's so many tall tales created by theists about famous people everyday that you always have to look for the source.

[wolveraptor]

You know, the professor is totally right on the existence of coldness and darkness in a colloquial sense. The student is just being a nitpicking dumbass here, and makes some weird leap in logic from "Cold is the absence of heat" to "Evil is the absence of god." He doesn't even bother proving the assertion.

[K. A. Pital]

The whole "Evil is the absence of good" argument is bullshit itself.

There are good acts - which supposedly increase people's well-being, there are irrelevant acts, which don't harm and do no good either, and there are evil acts which cause harm.
A person has a candy and a club and sees a stranger. He can give a candy, good, he can just walk by - no good, no bad, and he can beat him with a club - evil.

[Surlethe]

You know, I would go about rebutting the argument by noting that if God is omnipresent, as is commonly assumed, then he can't be absent from anywhere. Does that fly?

[K. A. Pital]

Does that fly?

Of course. Did you not know that one of theologian's scary question is whether God incorporates/exists in Hell.

If Hell is a "void of God" place, then obviously God is a sadistic bastard who chooses to multiply the suffering of humans while he himself doesn't even itch.

Thus there's a quite vocal group of theologians, at least here in Russia, who claim that Hell exists inside God and torments him (although it's unclear how), but anyway, God is in Hell and also created Hell. Of course, then he's also evil, but perhaps less so because he himself suffers because of his act...

[Wyrm]

You know, I would go about rebutting the argument by noting that if God is omnipresent, as is commonly assumed, then he can't be absent from anywhere. Does that fly?

If God is omnipotent, then he can be in all things and therefore eliminate evil by his very presence by being omnipresent. If he is omniscient, then he will know that this is what he has to do to get rid of evil. (It's not just a matter of knowing what to do; we know what God must do to eliminate evil in this case!) If he's omnibenevolent, then he will do this from his infinite goodness. That evil still exists means that he lacks one of these three qualities. Check and mate.

[Darth Wong]

I came across that argument at a theist forum once. Was a great way for the members there to reassure themselves that atheists are all dumb asses.

I like the way they can't argue with a real atheist, so they invent a fictional one, put dumb words in his mouth, and then crow that he's an idiot.

[Rye]

Hmm, Einstein, did he have anything to say on religion and people that would misrepresent him in future? Oh yeah, he did!

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "(Albert Einstein, 1954)

So Einstein called these morons liars 52 years ago, and they're still doing it. This should surprise nobody.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

To add on to others' statements here, Einstein was actually quite poor in school and some believed he was actually mentally retarded. He certainly didn't make stunning theological arguments later in life, either.

[wolveraptor]

Another thing that pisses me off is when people assume that if Einstein says something, it's valid. He was fucking physicist, not a theologist. He can be wrong, just like every other mortal.

[Rye]

That said, everything he said on religion was pretty smart and accurate.

[Ritterin Sophia]

You know, I would go about rebutting the argument by noting that if God is omnipresent, as is commonly assumed, then he can't be absent from anywhere. Does that fly?

If God is omnipotent, then he can be in all things and therefore eliminate evil by his very presence by being omnipresent. If he is omniscient, then he will know that this is what he has to do to get rid of evil. (It's not just a matter of knowing what to do; we know what God must do to eliminate evil in this case!) If he's omnibenevolent, then he will do this from his infinite goodness. That evil still exists means that he lacks one of these three qualities. Check and mate.

Wyrm... do you mind if I print that off to put in my billfold to show any person who wants to argue whether god is good or not?

[Haruko]

Hmm, Einstein, did he have anything to say on religion and people that would misrepresent him in future? Oh yeah, he did!

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "(Albert Einstein, 1954)

Source: letter to an atheist (1954), <i>Albert Einstein: The Human Side</i> (1981) edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

Another related quote (with source, OMG!) by Mr. Einstein:

"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.<br />"But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task ..."

-- Albert Einstein, <i>Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium</i>

To add on to others' statements here, Einstein was actually quite poor in school and some believed he was actually mentally retarded.

Yes, I read about that; his math teacher thought there was something wrong with him because he wouldn't do the work (he just didn't want to do this basic bullshit again and again), and his parents thought he may be retarded because it would be several years later than the average child before he learned to speak.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I hear Darwin recanted evolution on his death bed, therefore, evolution is a lie and totally useless because Darwin said so himself!

[Gil Hamilton]

To add on to others' statements here, Einstein was actually quite poor in school and some believed he was actually mentally retarded. He certainly didn't make stunning theological arguments later in life, either.

He did poorly in early school, but he did do well in college and got a doctorate.

As for Einstein's religion, he did go under a bit of a journey. He was Jewish to start with and arrived at "Spinoza's God", which expressed itself not as a personified god but through the natural world. Keep in mind that Spinoza was a deist. I understand he came extremely bothered by organized religion and fanaticism as he grew older, since he saw what it did to Germany during his life time.

As for the story in the OP, it's a myth spread by fundies. That's definitely not something you could pin on Einstein and I've heard it attributed to multiple thinkers. However, it follows the format of most fundie tales. Take one arrogant professor/scientist/thinker and against one brave Christian student/clergyman/townsfolk and have the latter show up the former with a simplistic analogy and humble him.

[Darth Raptor]

Einstein isn't an irrefutable authority for Christian fundamentalists. At my parents' church there's a guy who rejects the Theory of Relativity because "Einstein was morally bankrupt and helped create the atom bomb."

I only wish I was making that up. The fact that the guy's vote counts just as much as mine makes me feel very empty inside.

[Thinkmarble]

He did poorly in early school, but he did do well in college and got a doctorate.

His Highschool diploma*
With 6 being the best grade and one being the worst.

1.German 6
2. French 3
3. English -
4. Italian 5
6. History 6
7. Geography 4
8. Algebra 6
9. Geometry 6
10. Descriptive geometry 6
11. Physics 6
12. Chemistry 5
13. Natural history 5
14. Drawing (Art) 4
15. Drawing (Technical) 4

He passed as the best in his class and actually jumped a class earlier in his life.

*Actually the Matura, the paper which grants permission to study at a university in Switzerland.[/list]

[Darth Servo]

I got that in a chain e-mail once or twice. <yawn>

[Ariphaos]

You know, I would go about rebutting the argument by noting that if God is omnipresent, as is commonly assumed, then he can't be absent from anywhere. Does that fly?

I had a six hour long conversation with a bunch of Christians just before I left for college, where I brought up that point among many others.

Four years later, they were still talking about that conversation. At the very least, it reassures me that I could get them thinking... a little.

[Futoque]

Here is an undepth discussion of the myth.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp