Why is Biotech so Weak?

[Darth Raptor]

Leaving aside Zonama Sekot and the Vong for a moment, along with whatever other oddball biologically-advanced races may exist, why does Republic/Imperial/Alliance biotech seem to be so stunted? Given the age of their civilization and their nigh-miraculous achievements elswhere, Wars doesn't seem to be able to do anything that isn't at least theoretically possible now. Cloning is considered to be a big deal, they use robotic prosthetics and their medicine pretty much hinges on bacta, a naturally-occuring magic cureall. What gives? Why are they not living forever without the secret of Darth Plagueis and Light Side ascension and all that?

The only thing I can come up with are the cultural taboos associated with genetic manipulation and the huge and daunting diversity of life they have to deal with, but that doesn't seem like enough to hold medicine back that far over 25,000 years.

[Noble Ire]

There are occasional references to the major galactic factions employing some fairly formidable biotechnology. I recall Publius mentioning the remote chemical imprinting of a detailed galactic map on the retina of stormtroopers (or something like that). I can't find the quote, though. And then there's the CIS' extensive usage of extremely destructive bio/chem weaponry, or their mutation experiments, like those seen in the CW cartoons.

However, you're right, non-military biotech does seem rather far behind the rest of their technology. It may be due to cultural taboos, or a simple over-reliance on more "conventional" technology. The existance of cloning on the level of the Kaminoans, Khomm, and Spaarti does indicate the knowledge for advanced medical treatment; its simply not exploited to its full extent.

[PainRack]

Leaving aside Zonama Sekot and the Vong for a moment, along with whatever other oddball biologically-advanced races may exist, why does Republic/Imperial/Alliance biotech seem to be so stunted? Given the age of their civilization and their nigh-miraculous achievements elswhere, Wars doesn't seem to be able to do anything that isn't at least theoretically possible now. Cloning is considered to be a big deal, they use robotic prosthetics and their medicine pretty much hinges on bacta, a naturally-occuring magic cureall. What gives? Why are they not living forever without the secret of Darth Plagueis and Light Side ascension and all that?

The only thing I can come up with are the cultural taboos associated with genetic manipulation and the huge and daunting diversity of life they have to deal with, but that doesn't seem like enough to hold medicine back that far over 25,000 years.

The Gungan sub is apparently "grown" and intergrated with machines from inside the worlds of sw TPM. A sub that can go through the planetary sub is more than "advanced" enough for me.

And where do you get the idea that cloning is a big deal? The kaminonians are just one group of cloners, the implications are there are others.

[Darth Raptor]

The Gungan sub is apparently "grown" and intergrated with machines from inside the worlds of sw TPM. A sub that can go through the planetary sub is more than "advanced" enough for me.

The Gungans are fairly isolationist, so they can be considered to be Imperial/Republic citizens about as much as Ewoks can. None of their capabilities seem to be at all mainstream.

And where do you get the idea that cloning is a big deal? The kaminonians are just one group of cloners, the implications are there are others.

I have admittedly not kept up on my fluff all that well, but the Kaminoans, Khommites and Spaarti are the only three I can even think of. Again, all three of them were out of the mainstream until they were forced into it and even then their operations were less than commonplace. Why doesn't Luke just get a new hand? Why can't Vader and Sidious be healed completely? Imperial medicine is crap, relative to the rest of their magical technology.

[Elheru Aran]

Why doesn't Luke just get a new hand? Why can't Vader and Sidious be healed completely? Imperial medicine is crap, relative to the rest of their magical technology.

The Rebels didn't have cloning technology available to them, and as for Vader and Sidious, there's that whole Force thing going on. Sidious wasn't capable of doing the transference of souls until well into the OT era; by that point, he wasn't interested in helping Vader out more than he already had.

[Ender]

My thoery for this is the same as it is for the lack of MMIs and more extenive cyborging - Force Users.

All the genetic engineering and such that is more blatent then extending the lifespan to the max practical (which we know is done, average age appears to be 120 at time of death for humans) and disease combat and control is largely to inprove upon the pre-existing organism. And Force users totally negate that - no matter how bad ass you tweak yourself to be, a competent force user is going to annihilate you in any kind of competition.

As a result, I'd imagine most of their sciences went to studying the Force, and the difficulties of that science and the fact that the Jedi would have suppressed that mean it really never went anywhere.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Eh, the Jedi were obviously influential in the Old Republic for millennia, but you'd have a hard time giving a shit what they think if you're one of the senators (or any other influential person) who's getting shafted by that sort of decision.

[Darth Fanboy]

Couldn't removing a person's mind and putting into an HRD be some form of Biotech, like what the bad guy did in Force Heretic II?

[Noble Ire]

Couldn't removing a person's mind and putting into an HRD be some form of Biotech, like what the bad guy did in Force Heretic II?

Since the transfer seemed to revolve around the "entechment" process, which can only be Force-based (as demonstrated by the increased energy potential of a Jedi's enteched "soul"), I wouldn't really call it biotech.

Besides, the book indicates that only the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium had access to the technology, so its not really indicative of the level of the galaxy as a whole.

[Darth Fanboy]

Ah fair enough. ALthough if somehow anyone in Sw combined that process with the B'omarr monks brain jar technology that would be rather interesting.

Another questions, would the bio-droids of "Cestus Deception" count, despite their flaws and limitations?

[FTeik]

We also have to consider the selective effects due to the material we have available. Mostly we see some planets in the Outer Rim, but not how life is on other core-worlds aside from Coruscant. We also rarely see the common citicens, but either the creme of society, Force-users or outlaws.

We know they can clone organs from the MedStar-duology, that they can bio-engineer artificial lifeforms (SlaveShip), that they can terraform entire worlds (HoT-duology) and that they can improve the DNA of speciem (for example Palpatine's clones). Aside from the Jedi suppressing certain kinds of research we might not see some kinds of biotechnology because of or lack of practicality or costs.

[PainRack]

Depending on the canonicity of Tales, Tales of the Bounty Hunters reveal that Dengar brain has been surgically altered to the extent that the Empire removed his feelings, save for hate and violence.

That's another example of biotech. Its just absurd to believe that scattered, diffused elements of the SWU has highly advanced biotechnology and the rest of the SWU doesn't. Its more likely that such techniques emerged from the Republic/Empire science and was tinkered and modified with by local scientists and engineers for design purposes.

My thoery for this is the same as it is for the lack of MMIs and more extenive cyborging - Force Users.

Wasn't it canon that there exists bigotry against cyborg users like Lobot?

[PainRack]

I have admittedly not kept up on my fluff all that well, but the Kaminoans, Khommites and Spaarti are the only three I can even think of. Again, all three of them were out of the mainstream until they were forced into it and even then their operations were less than commonplace. Why doesn't Luke just get a new hand? Why can't Vader and Sidious be healed completely? Imperial medicine is crap, relative to the rest of their magical technology.

I finishing up on a research project into Vader injuries. Either their technology is uber-advanced, or its so extremely primitive that basic concepts of medicine doesn't exist or wasn't used for Vader, despite being seen in other SW novels, like for example, the very basic use of an IV drip.

As for Luke, its more than likely that his hand been cut off for too long. It might have been considered to be "better" to simply substitute a robotic arm instead.

[Noble Ire]

Another questions, would the bio-droids of "Cestus Deception" count, despite their flaws and limitations?

Probably not. They are essentially cyborgs, a technology the SW universe has proven quite adept at.

[Connor MacLeod]

Depending on the canonicity of Tales, Tales of the Bounty Hunters reveal that Dengar brain has been surgically altered to the extent that the Empire removed his feelings, save for hate and violence.

That's another example of biotech. Its just absurd to believe that scattered, diffused elements of the SWU has highly advanced biotechnology and the rest of the SWU doesn't. Its more likely that such techniques emerged from the Republic/Empire science and was tinkered and modified with by local scientists and engineers for design purposes.

The JAT had the Mon Calamari technician Terphen who had been brainwashed/subjugated by having portions of his brain replaced with some sort of grown/organic circuitry, which put him under complete control of Furgan on Carida (and it was apparently reliable enough that it wasnt detected and was common enough to have been done on Carida itself.)

There were also the "nano destroyers" used to attack Mon Mothma, though that might be nanotech instead of organic.

There was also, IIRC, Piggy and the related research to what Zsinj was doing, which is also partly biotech.

And, of course, the biowarfare stuff we leanred about in the NJO.

Bacta almsot certainly qualifies as biotech. Cloning probably too (rapid cloning of trained/skilled/experienced troops like the Spaarti method could be quite effective.)

[Connor MacLeod]

[quote="Noble IreSince the transfer seemed to revolve around the "entechment" process, which can only be Force-based (as demonstrated by the increased energy potential of a Jedi's enteched "soul"), I wouldn't really call it biotech.

Besides, the book indicates that only the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium had access to the technology, so its not really indicative of the level of the galaxy as a whole.[/quote]

As I recall Cray Mingla did some research into Ssi-Ruuvi entechment technology as part of attempting to build/create the Nichos Marr droid/cyborg, so I dont think it was strictly "Ssi-Ruuk only" - its probaby as extensively a restricted technology as stuff relating to the Death Star is.

[Noble Ire]

As I recall Cray Mingla did some research into Ssi-Ruuvi entechment technology as part of attempting to build/create the Nichos Marr droid/cyborg, so I dont think it was strictly "Ssi-Ruuk only" - its probaby as extensively a restricted technology as stuff relating to the Death Star is.

Well, Palpatine did have some clandestine contact with the Imperium before his death, and it is possible that he was able to aquire some of their technology for his storehouses and Imperial R&D. Nevertheless, with the chaos surrounding the splintering of the Emperor's dominion and the near-destruction of the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium by the New Republic and the Chiss, I doubt it ever became that wide-spread.

[Shroom Man 777]

Cloning is considered to be a big deal, they use robotic prosthetics and their medicine pretty much hinges on bacta, a naturally-occuring magic cureall.

What's wrong with bacta?

What gives? Why are they not living forever without the secret of Darth Plagueis and Light Side ascension and all that?

Do we know the real age limit of people in SW? Last time I checked, the only person who died of old age was...Yoda.

The only thing I can come up with are the cultural taboos associated with genetic manipulation and the huge and daunting diversity of life they have to deal with, but that doesn't seem like enough to hold medicine back that far over 25,000 years.

Why do you think that medicine has been held back? Grevious got exploderized and they were able to put his remains (his head) in a killbot body complete with organs. That's pretty spiffy.

I'm sure if there was an EU book about Greedo, giving him an interesting backstory as a trauma surgeon on Tatooine General Hospital, we'd see lots of interesting crap and impressive medicines.

[Noble Ire]

I'm sure if there was an EU book about Greedo, giving him an interesting backstory as a trauma surgeon on Tatooine General Hospital, we'd see lots of interesting crap and impressive medicines.

There are actually a pair of EU books (the Medstar Duology) and a short story between them, set during the Clone Wars, that detail the day to day workings of a Republic field hospital, and the considerable medical capability therein. Of course, most of the treatments and surgeries deal with clones, who, among other aspects, are similar enough to one another to be able to adapt to implants of mass-produced internal organs. Nevertheless, there is more standard medical technology delt with as well.

[Shroom Man 777]

Uhuh. Are these medicines good? Or, as Darth Raptor says, not as good as the rest of SWtech?

[Noble Ire]

Uhuh. Are these medicines good? Or, as Darth Raptor says, not as good as the rest of SWtech?

I can't reference the books at the moment, I do recall the technology being used on a level at the very least equal to state-of-the-art Earth procedures. Considering the extensive usage of cloned limbs, artifical skin, and the like, I would be willing to bet it exceeds it in most areas, as well. And this was just an oft-besieged army hospital on a miserable jungle world; hardly the Royal Medical Academy on Alderaan or the Emperor's medical facility on Coruscant. I'm not sure how one would compare medical tech with that of the military or spacefaring sort, but I never thought it was particularly lacking.

[Darth Raptor]

What's wrong with bacta?

They can't synthesize it.

Do we know the real age limit of people in SW? Last time I checked, the only person who died of old age was...Yoda.

And Admiral Ackbar, but they aren't human. Grand Admiral Paelleon is the only Force-blind human I can think of who survives long enough be considered "old". To his credit, he stays pretty active.

Why do you think that medicine has been held back? Grevious got exploderized and they were able to put his remains (his head) in a killbot body complete with organs. That's pretty spiffy.

Yes, but there has to be some drawbacks, or he would have got borged as soon as he had the chance. Droid building is not an area of SW I would consider weak, but the inability to completely restore Grievous and Vader shows that their biotics are lagging pretty far behind.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, I'm sure if Grievous got his normal body back, he wouldn't have gotten his fancy lightsaber collection

[PainRack]

[quote="Darth Raptor"
They can't synthesize it.[/quote]
They can make and build it, so, what's the problem with growing more bacta?

Yes, but there has to be some drawbacks, or he would have got borged as soon as he had the chance. Droid building is not an area of SW I would consider weak, but the inability to completely restore Grievous and Vader shows that their biotics are lagging pretty far behind.

Because SW humans hate cyborgs. And most other species. Beside, LOE decides to give a screwball by claiming that most of Grevious injuries was "added" on by Darth Sidious instructions.

[Cykeisme]

Why do you think that medicine has been held back? Grevious got exploderized and they were able to put his remains (his head) in a killbot body complete with organs. That's pretty spiffy.

Yes, but there has to be some drawbacks, or he would have got borged as soon as he had the chance. Droid building is not an area of SW I would consider weak, but the inability to completely restore Grievous and Vader shows that their biotics are lagging pretty far behind.

He would've gotten borged as soon as he got the chance? I can think of a couple reasons why not. He likes his body. Do you want to become a cyborg like Grievous?
Secondly, he's a freedom fighter from an oppressed race on a shitty backwater planet. Even if he wanted to, where's he going to find the facilities or the money to get it done?

They can't synthesize it.

They can make and build it, so, what's the problem with growing more bacta?

Exactly.

If bacta contains one or more types of microorganisms, how exactly do you intend to "synthesize" it, Raptor? They can grow more of it, probably modify and engineer it for various species (they probably use a mixed compound that works on a full spectrum of common species already), and.. did I mention they can grow more of it? They can grow as much of it as they want.

What exactly do you mean by "synthesize"? Building the clone army must count as synthsizing humans, unless by "synthesize" you mean making it from scratch without a template.
Are you referring to the fact that they can't manufacture bacta out of nothing? They can't build humans out of thin air either, without starting out from a template.